national minimum wage LAWS. good or bad?

[Topazan]

Yeah, I saw that.  Those are all mild variations of their base menu.  None of that stuff requires additional equipment or expertise.  You can ask for special orders in almost any restaurant.

It's strange, because I remember I never went there more than once or twice precisely because they refused to leave off certain ingredients.  Either that's changed, or my memory is faulty.

[firefop]

Yeah, I saw that.  Those are all mild variations of their base menu.  None of that stuff requires additional equipment or expertise.  You can ask for special orders in almost any restaurant.

It's strange, because I remember I never went there more than once or twice precisely because they refused to leave off certain ingredients.  Either that's changed, or my memory is faulty.

I couldn't say for certain (and my better half is fairly picky) but I'd guess you'd just have to check.

[bb113]

Well anyway, minimum wage laws are pretty obviously dumb. But you need to consider how dumb the rest of the way society is run as well, to understand it doesn't really matter. They will always lag inflation more and more every year, etc. The real problem is the idea people hold that growth=good. Maybe sometimes, but not always.

[Rassah]

Around here, I can get a Angus Deluxe (One of McD's premium burgers with fresh vegies that does compare to In-n-Out burgers) for about $3.50.

Please render your opinion again once you've visited an In-n-Out.

I can't as I'm nowhere near California. But you can get an Angus Deluxe and let us know what your opinion on the two are.

[FirstAscent]

Around here, I can get a Angus Deluxe (One of McD's premium burgers with fresh vegies that does compare to In-n-Out burgers) for about $3.50.

Please render your opinion again once you've visited an In-n-Out.

I can't as I'm nowhere near California. But you can get an Angus Deluxe and let us know what your opinion on the two are.

I've had an Angus Deluxe two or three times and I can let you know what my opinion is. It was okay, and simply does not compare to In-n-Out. I go to McDonalds when, say I'm at A, and I need to go to B, and McDonalds is the only place in between, and I'm hungry, and there's little time for a detour. I know for a fact (from experience) that In-n-Out generally comes out to less money, and tastes much better. Sometimes, if I'm trying to avoid spending hardly any money at a all, I'll get a McDouble for $1.29, but really, that's nothing more than a snack. Rassah, perhaps a donation fund could be put together for you to travel to an In-n-Out friendly state. So sad, otherwise.

Once again, as others have pointed out, McDonalds does not compare to In-n-Out.

Topazan,

Actually, In-n-Out brags about the fact that their restaurants have no microwaves, heat lamps or freezers. But they do have a heavy duty manually operated machine for pushing fresh whole potatoes through a grille to cut them into fry slices. Honestly, it seems your point is about kitchen costs. I did point out that at lunch hour there's approximately ten kitchen personnel in the kitchen (at above minimum wage).

[myrkul]

Well, since the conversation is no longer about minimum wage, and the last statement actually about minimum wage laws was that they're bullshit, I guess that point's been conceded.

[cbeast]

Well, since the conversation is no longer about minimum wage, and the last statement actually about minimum wage laws was that they're bullshit, I guess that point's been conceded.

or that nobody cares.

[johnyj]

What is the minimum wage of a cat? I think she get a good social welfare system and do not need to work

Similarly, rich people having too much production power, they could afford to have some people walking around in the city without doing anything, just like pets. Or more positively, they want a pleasant social environment that everyone has a good living standard, so that they enjoy seeing everyone walking on the street have smile 

Interesting idea.

On the other hand, my cat pulls his own weight around the place. He keeps my outbuildings free of rodents (which he eats - mostly) and keeps stray cats away from the house. Sometimes he warms my lap when I sit on the porch and makes very relaxing sounds when I scratch him under his chin. In exchange for these benefits, I feed him once in awhile (mostly left over chicken parts that I'd just throw away anyway - or the last bit of milk or cream that's in the process of turning) and a handful of cat chow whenever I feel happen to feel like it (mostly on really cold or rainy days).

I'd call it more of a barter arrangement...

Now if you could convince some welfare recipient to keep people from asking me for spare change or cigarettes every time I walk around downtown... in exchange for the heels of my loaf of bread, the left over bits of vegetables that I've cut off my food before I cook it and the occasional day old donut, dollar burger or left over burrito AND be willing to sing/hum a catchy tune whenever I they were around...

Then yes, I suppose that idea might work.

Suppose we are a few people already can make everything we need but we wonder what to do with the rest of the people on the planet

Some choice:
1. Kill those people since they are just not needed
2. Let those people work hard and compete with ourselves
3. Hand out some social benefits to them so that they don't bother
4. Give them some meaningless work and a good pay so that they could keep buying things that we make

I guess we can rule out the possibility of 1 and 2... Anyway, when productivity is enough high, any kind of counter-efficient thing could happen, there are many ways to waste money, just like feeding a cat with excessive food


 

[Rassah]

McDoubles are 99¢ here. You can get a McDouble and a McChicken for 99¢ each to make a huge McChurger for just $2.00.



I guess prices are just more expensive where you live.

[myrkul]

McDoubles are 99¢ here. You can can a McDouble and a McChicken for 99¢ each to make a huge McChurger. I guess prices are just more expensive where you live.

If he lives within the range of In-N-Out, yes, yes they are.

I would not, however, eat a "McChurger" if you paid me.

[FirstAscent]

McDoubles are 99¢ here. You can get a McDouble and a McChicken for 99¢ each to make a huge McChurger for just $2.00.



I guess prices are just more expensive where you live.

McDoubles are $1.29 where I live. Quarter Pounders with cheese are typically $3.99. But neither really compare with any In-N-Out offering - not even the Quarter Pounder. Therefore, In-n-Out offers tastier, fresher burgers for less than McDonalds.

[Rassah]

McDoubles are $1.29 where I live. Quarter Pounders with cheese are typically $3.99. But neither really compare with any In-N-Out offering - not even the Quarter Pounder. Therefore, In-n-Out offers tastier, fresher burgers for less than McDonalds.

OK, now that you have established that, you'll need to explain your premise that employees getting paid higher wages leads directly to better quality and lower priced burgers. How does that work exactly? I.e. what's the math?
Then explain if you believe that raising the minimum wage again will make others' (e.g. McDonald's) burgers become better quality and cheaper, too.

[FirstAscent]

McDoubles are $1.29 where I live. Quarter Pounders with cheese are typically $3.99. But neither really compare with any In-N-Out offering - not even the Quarter Pounder. Therefore, In-n-Out offers tastier, fresher burgers for less than McDonalds.

OK, now that you have established that, you'll need to explain your premise that employees getting paid higher wages leads directly to better quality and lower priced burgers. How does that work exactly? I.e. what's the math?
Then explain if you believe that raising the minimum wage again will make others' (e.g. McDonald's) burgers become better quality and cheaper, too.

In-n-Out is a demonstration that a business which pays higher employee wages can still offer high quality products made with expensive materials at lower prices. We've established that, at least for fast food.

I argue that McDonalds (and Walmart and others) do not suffer from minimum wage floors. They're clearly successful - mightily so. But it's clear that most fast food restaurants could take some lessons from In-n-Out.

They are: Adopt policies which work. Have very specific policies for how things are done. Train your employees and pay them well. Specialize and build an efficient business model.

Some things which are very specific about In-n-Out which you do not always notice at other fast food restaurants:

1. Managers never interrupt a cashier when he or she is taking an order. Cashiers, once they say "may I help you?" maintain their focus on the customer until the order is finished. I notice very sloppy and inconsistent application of this at other fast food restaurants.

2. At most fast food restaurants, I notice the floor gets rather wet when it is mopped, and then when customers walk through it, they leave footprints (from the dust and dirt on their shoes) which nulls the mopping. In-n-Out has a special procedure for mopping the floor, where only a damp mop is used, and a second employee moves with them, absorbing any dampness with a floor duster.

3. At many fast food restaurants, I notice that an employee might clean tables with a spray bottle containing cleaning chemicals, and I have experienced the mist from these bottles settle around me (and my food). In-n-Out never does this.

4. In-n-Out's food is very consistent. At other fast food establishments (not all), I have noticed sloppy construction of the food, (condiments missing or poorly spread, partially or poorly baked buns, etc.). In-n-Out trains the employees on such things, apparently, because of the extreme consistency and quality.

5. At many fast food restaurants, I have often experienced no policies regarding complaints about food - often I am met with blank stares or incomprehension. In-n-Out will always make sure the customer is treated well.

6. Most fast food restaurants offer new menu items every few months. This does not increase their menu selection, as it simultaneously causes an item to be deleted from the menu. What does this mean? Apparently marketing is a higher priority than great recipes. If they can't win the customer with food, than win them over by telling them they're still trying to figure out what the customer wants.

McDonalds is successful, and it does pay minimum wage (or higher). Yet their product is far below the quality of a much more successful operation which pays its employees more, and offers a better product (food quality and service combined), and yet on balance, seems to charge less for its products. And McDonalds' sales per store are much less than that other successful operation.  

[Rassah]

Just FYI, a typical McDonalds restaurant makes about $160,000 in revenue per month.

Back to the topic, it seems you have now thoroughly[/q] argued for the point that businesses can set their own wage floors, based on the quality of service and products they want to sell, and possibly even save money due to increased employee competence, decreased turnover, and increased sales volume, and that those wage floors they set can be even higher than the "officially" set ones. Which is exactly what we were arguing - that the free market can set its own wage floors, and they will not be close to zero, since a business can be much more productive by paying living wages and having happy employees.

So... why do we need minimum wage laws again?

[cbeast]

can set their own wage floors, based on the quality of service and products they want to sell, and possibly even save money due to increased employee competence, decreased turnover, and increased sales volume, and that those wage floors they set can be even higher than the "officially" set ones. Which is exactly what we were arguing - that the free market can set its own wage floors, and they will not be close to zero, since a business can be much more productive by paying living wages and having happy employees.

So... why do we need minimum wage laws again?

can... possibly... looks like your moving the goalposts here. So what about those employers that want to do the same things, maybe even better, but want to pay lower wages? This will make them more profitable and hence more competitive. They will put your higher wage employer out of business. Then it becomes a race to the bottom.

Saying that a "free market... can be much more productive by paying living wages and having happy employees" is only supported if you can prove that it produces higher wages, which you have not. If higher wages produced more productive employees, then we would not be outsourcing labor to prisons and communist dictatorship countries.

We need minimum wage laws to prevent America from becoming a dictatorship.

[myrkul]

can set their own wage floors, based on the quality of service and products they want to sell, and possibly even save money due to increased employee competence, decreased turnover, and increased sales volume, and that those wage floors they set can be even higher than the "officially" set ones. Which is exactly what we were arguing - that the free market can set its own wage floors, and they will not be close to zero, since a business can be much more productive by paying living wages and having happy employees.

So... why do we need minimum wage laws again?

can... possibly... looks like your moving the goalposts here. So what about those employers that want to do the same things, maybe even better, but want to pay lower wages? This will make them more profitable and hence more competitive. They will put your higher wage employer out of business. Then it becomes a race to the bottom.

So why is In-N-Out so successful? Why hasn't someone done the same thing they're doing, but paid minimum wage, thus running them out of business?

[Rassah]

^^^ This. Beat me to it. Just need to add...

We need minimum wage laws to prevent America from becoming a dictatorship.

You don't have to pay to be able to vote. Those earning below minimum wage would be able to vote just as much as those earning a lot. Billionaire Sheldon Adelson's vote counts for 1 vote, just as much as a retired old lady's who is living only off of SSI. So, no, political corruptions lead to dictatorships. What's happening in China was actually what started as a dictatorship, which is now slowly being eroded away by capitalism.

[cbeast]

can set their own wage floors, based on the quality of service and products they want to sell, and possibly even save money due to increased employee competence, decreased turnover, and increased sales volume, and that those wage floors they set can be even higher than the "officially" set ones. Which is exactly what we were arguing - that the free market can set its own wage floors, and they will not be close to zero, since a business can be much more productive by paying living wages and having happy employees.

So... why do we need minimum wage laws again?

can... possibly... looks like your moving the goalposts here. So what about those employers that want to do the same things, maybe even better, but want to pay lower wages? This will make them more profitable and hence more competitive. They will put your higher wage employer out of business. Then it becomes a race to the bottom.

So why is In-N-Out so successful? Why hasn't someone done the same thing they're doing, but paid minimum wage, thus running them out of business?

In-N-Out is in a different market than McDonalds. In fact, I have only ever seen but a few In-N-Out stores compared to thousands of McDonald's. But if they do intend to compete with McDonalds, I wish them well.

[FirstAscent]

can set their own wage floors, based on the quality of service and products they want to sell, and possibly even save money due to increased employee competence, decreased turnover, and increased sales volume, and that those wage floors they set can be even higher than the "officially" set ones. Which is exactly what we were arguing - that the free market can set its own wage floors, and they will not be close to zero, since a business can be much more productive by paying living wages and having happy employees.

So... why do we need minimum wage laws again?

can... possibly... looks like your moving the goalposts here. So what about those employers that want to do the same things, maybe even better, but want to pay lower wages? This will make them more profitable and hence more competitive. They will put your higher wage employer out of business. Then it becomes a race to the bottom.

So why is In-N-Out so successful? Why hasn't someone done the same thing they're doing, but paid minimum wage, thus running them out of business?

I don't know. Ask all the CEOs of all the fast food operations which have lower sales per store, mostly unappealing food, and crappy service. Ask them why they don't see the obvious things that In-n-Out does, because it is obvious.

McDonalds has more stores per region, but less employees per store, and food that isn't as good. Most importantly, they have less sales per store. But note that they pay extra for land leases and equipment per sale. In-n-Out pays less for land leases and equipment per sale.

[cbeast]

^^^ This. Beat me to it. Just need to add...

We need minimum wage laws to prevent America from becoming a dictatorship.

You don't have to pay to be able to vote. Those earning below minimum wage would be able to vote just as much as those earning a lot. Billionaire Sheldon Adelson's vote counts for 1 vote, just as much as a retired old lady's who is living only off of SSI. So, no, political corruptions lead to dictatorships. What's happening in China was actually what started as a dictatorship, which is now slowly being eroded away by capitalism.

Thanks for taking the red herring. The original argument was getting boring. It's kinda hard to vote when you can't get time off of work to do so. Those mail in ballots tend to get misplaced and not counted. Oh, and what about those 10 hour waiting lines for voting in the poor districts? It's hard for many parents to pay for a babysitter while they vote. Poll taxes are just a stepping stone to dictatorship.