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Author Topic: [ANNOUNCE] Bitmessage - P2P Messaging system based partially on Bitcoin  (Read 89873 times)
Financisto
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July 18, 2013, 06:31:51 AM
 #321

After what happened with first bits, I'm not relying on something like that again.

But there must be a way to do it right without serious issues involved...

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July 18, 2013, 06:33:14 AM
 #322

Yeah a local address book that can't be compromised or close

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July 18, 2013, 06:49:27 AM
 #323

After what happened with first bits, I'm not relying on something like that again.

But there must be a way to do it right without serious issues involved...

Take a look: https://bitmessage.org/forum/index.php/topic,2563.0.html Wink  (Sorry for advertising my own work here, though.  But I think this can be really useful.)

Use your Namecoin identity as OpenID: https://nameid.org/
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July 19, 2013, 07:36:17 AM
 #324

Just realize, if you use encryption, you must think in terms of life in prison or why use encryption in the first place

Or you could spend life in prison for failing to turn over your keys.

Or perhaps you just don't want your identity stolen. 

oh you mean the keys i accidentally lost?
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July 19, 2013, 06:51:46 PM
 #325

Just realize, if you use encryption, you must think in terms of life in prison or why use encryption in the first place

Or you could spend life in prison for failing to turn over your keys.

Or perhaps you just don't want your identity stolen. 

oh you mean the keys i accidentally lost?
You think the for-profit prison system cares that you 'accidentally' lost them?

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July 19, 2013, 07:55:49 PM
 #326

Hey a couple years of water boarding is better than execution

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July 19, 2013, 08:18:43 PM
 #327

If this service had an android app, I would use it a lot daily
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July 19, 2013, 09:20:59 PM
 #328

If this service had an android app, I would use it a lot daily

i think it would take your phone a very long time to do the proof of work

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July 19, 2013, 09:23:04 PM
 #329

Someone will make an online version soon. But it will probably have to be paid cuz of spam.

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July 20, 2013, 10:00:29 AM
Last edit: July 20, 2013, 12:35:38 PM by Cyberdyne
 #330

Sorry I haven't read the entire Bitmessage thread, I've only just got into it and installed the program yesterday. Very impressed so far, and had this thought about file attachments and how they could work.

If there's been a discussion somewhere on encrypted file attachments with bitmessage, please could someone link me to it?

Meanwhile, I'll just paste the text I came up with last night when I had this thought...

Quote
What if...

Bitmessage could handle file attachements by encrypting the file to upload and putting it on some server.
Then the recipient could download the encrypted file and decrypt it.

It'd be a huge server load that someone would have to pay for (maybe if having the option to add a file attachment was a paid-subscription service).

The attachment server wouldn't have to worry too much about seizure or anything because it would be entirely encrypted files.

Would be good if this functionality could be handled in an automated way for both sender/receiver.
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July 20, 2013, 10:48:58 AM
 #331

The problem with OTR is exchanging the initial public key.  DH does not prevent man in the middle attacks.   The problem with Certificate Authorities is they are only as secure as the weakest link.  Other forms of key exchange are not 'easy to use' and ultimately result in BM style 'address exchange' over an out-of-band channel. 
You want safe and easy? Check this out: https://bitmessage.org/forum/index.php/topic,2563.msg4855.html#msg4855
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July 20, 2013, 12:27:04 PM
 #332

The problem with OTR is exchanging the initial public key.  DH does not prevent man in the middle attacks.   The problem with Certificate Authorities is they are only as secure as the weakest link.  Other forms of key exchange are not 'easy to use' and ultimately result in BM style 'address exchange' over an out-of-band channel. 
You want safe and easy? Check this out: https://bitmessage.org/forum/index.php/topic,2563.msg4855.html#msg4855

This is close to the approach except that Namecoin does not scale to millions of users without the block chain bandwidth growing out of hand or centralizing.

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July 21, 2013, 02:37:40 AM
 #333

The problem with OTR is exchanging the initial public key.  DH does not prevent man in the middle attacks.   The problem with Certificate Authorities is they are only as secure as the weakest link.  Other forms of key exchange are not 'easy to use' and ultimately result in BM style 'address exchange' over an out-of-band channel. 
You want safe and easy? Check this out: https://bitmessage.org/forum/index.php/topic,2563.msg4855.html#msg4855

This is close to the approach except that Namecoin does not scale to millions of users without the block chain bandwidth growing out of hand or centralizing.

This is conjecture ...

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July 21, 2013, 03:32:41 AM
 #334

The problem with OTR is exchanging the initial public key.  DH does not prevent man in the middle attacks.   The problem with Certificate Authorities is they are only as secure as the weakest link.  Other forms of key exchange are not 'easy to use' and ultimately result in BM style 'address exchange' over an out-of-band channel. 
You want safe and easy? Check this out: https://bitmessage.org/forum/index.php/topic,2563.msg4855.html#msg4855

This is close to the approach except that Namecoin does not scale to millions of users without the block chain bandwidth growing out of hand or centralizing.

This is conjecture ...

100 Million users * 1 trx (renewal) per year * 1Kb / trx  means means 100 GB / year in trx volume that cannot be pruned even with no new registrations, no currency exchanges, etc.    Required average bandwidth is 26 kBit/sec just downloading the chain. Throw in overhead, new registrations, and partial updates and you are probably approaching 50 kbit/sec assuming everything is only downloaded once and uploaded once on average.    Not bad...   But what if users have multiple accounts (home/work/spam/etc...) all of a sudden the number of supported users falls dramatically unless they opt to use a BM address rather than a valid name.   

But if you hope to grow BitMessage to compete against gmail, you need to support 400 Million users or perhaps your goal is iTunes with 500 million users.     Perhaps just linked-in 225 million users.   250 million domain names.  Check this out this link: http://expandedramblings.com/index.php/resource-how-many-people-use-the-top-social-media/

My goal would be to eventually handle a user base of close to the size of iTunes and that would imply a half terabyte dedicated to just 1 year of renewal transactions and multiple terabytes of blockchain data.    Clearly once the system got to the scale that would displace a large volume of traditional email/accounts it would no longer be viable for home users to run a full node.   

I have a proposed alternative system for name registration (not yet published) that would allow 1 billion users, require only 100 GB of disk space (ever) and operate at less than 1 MB ever 5 minutes bandwidth requirement.    By the time there were 1 billion users, it would probably be viable to scale with the population growth.   

Of course you could just let the market come up with centralized solutions, light clients, etc, and compromise a tad on security by revealing who's address you are looking up and trusting a 3rd party to give you the most recent name record, etc.   




 


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July 21, 2013, 01:58:57 PM
Last edit: July 21, 2013, 02:20:28 PM by snailbrain
 #335

The problem with OTR is exchanging the initial public key.  DH does not prevent man in the middle attacks.   The problem with Certificate Authorities is they are only as secure as the weakest link.  Other forms of key exchange are not 'easy to use' and ultimately result in BM style 'address exchange' over an out-of-band channel.  
You want safe and easy? Check this out: https://bitmessage.org/forum/index.php/topic,2563.msg4855.html#msg4855

This is close to the approach except that Namecoin does not scale to millions of users without the block chain bandwidth growing out of hand or centralizing.

This is conjecture ...

100 Million users * 1 trx (renewal) per year * 1Kb / trx  means means 100 GB / year in trx volume that cannot be pruned even with no new registrations, no currency exchanges, etc.    Required average bandwidth is 26 kBit/sec just downloading the chain. Throw in overhead, new registrations, and partial updates and you are probably approaching 50 kbit/sec assuming everything is only downloaded once and uploaded once on average.    Not bad...   But what if users have multiple accounts (home/work/spam/etc...) all of a sudden the number of supported users falls dramatically unless they opt to use a BM address rather than a valid name.  

But if you hope to grow BitMessage to compete against gmail, you need to support 400 Million users or perhaps your goal is iTunes with 500 million users.     Perhaps just linked-in 225 million users.   250 million domain names.  Check this out this link: http://expandedramblings.com/index.php/resource-how-many-people-use-the-top-social-media/

My goal would be to eventually handle a user base of close to the size of iTunes and that would imply a half terabyte dedicated to just 1 year of renewal transactions and multiple terabytes of blockchain data.    Clearly once the system got to the scale that would displace a large volume of traditional email/accounts it would no longer be viable for home users to run a full node.  

I have a proposed alternative system for name registration (not yet published) that would allow 1 billion users, require only 100 GB of disk space (ever) and operate at less than 1 MB ever 5 minutes bandwidth requirement.    By the time there were 1 billion users, it would probably be viable to scale with the population growth.  

Of course you could just let the market come up with centralized solutions, light clients, etc, and compromise a tad on security by revealing who's address you are looking up and trusting a 3rd party to give you the most recent name record, etc.  




  



i think by the time (if ever) namecoin/bitmessage became as Popular as facebook (not sure why/when if/it would) bandwidth would be negligible and probably so would storage.

for domain names.. i believe there is around only 150+million total in the world.. the chances of getting this many domains is unlikely.

for names (as user IDs).. people can use the same names for multiple things..

if there was 500million users of namecoin, a namecoin is going to be worth (i would assume) a lot.. so. the balance of the amount of users / price will probably reach an equilibrium before it go "so popular"..
If the price of namecoin is too expensive then the rate of adoption will decrease..

As long as the names are not so cheap, then this equilibrium of adoption and name price can easily be used to match that of the exponential growth of storage space and network speed.

I think the chances of getting facebook amount of users within 5 years is pretty slim (by which time 15TB HD for 80$ will be standard)

Also.. Expiration times can be increased to prevent renewels (check and contribute to the proposed new fee system).


edit: at current fees 500million names = 5million coins.. the price per nmc would be too much.. this will prevent adoption and protect block chain / bandwith issues.. when storage/bandwidth is not a problem, the fees will go down.
so even though facebook style adoption is very slim, namecoin has it's own sort of protection against being "too adopted", "too soon"

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July 21, 2013, 03:07:03 PM
 #336

You proved my point, the fees alone would prevent namecoin from scaling to the point that BitMessage + Namecoin could be a viable alternative to email.

Sure, you could claim that you do not believe it would see that level of adoption and that you *want* to limit the growth artificially but I believe that is copping out.   Why wouldn't we want everyone who is using email now to use BitMessage in the future?   

BitMessage scales, so all we need is a naming solution that also scales.

Also, people expect email accounts to be free.  How long does it take them to mine enough namecoin to register an account?

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July 21, 2013, 03:43:36 PM
 #337

You proved my point, the fees alone would prevent namecoin from scaling to the point that BitMessage + Namecoin could be a viable alternative to email.

Sure, you could claim that you do not believe it would see that level of adoption and that you *want* to limit the growth artificially but I believe that is copping out.   Why wouldn't we want everyone who is using email now to use BitMessage in the future?   

BitMessage scales, so all we need is a naming solution that also scales.

Also, people expect email accounts to be free.  How long does it take them to mine enough namecoin to register an account?


Everyone using email can use bitmessage in the future instead of email, if they wanted? what is your point?

you can get 1 NMC to register >50 names for  0.4$

Free email accounts are sponsored by ads anyway. So it's ok for names to be non-free. Ad-sponsored coin faucets can mimic the ecosystem of ad-sponsored free emails, I believe (when the adoption becomes large enough).

BitMessage itself has hidden fees (in terms of required proof-of-work to send messages).

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July 21, 2013, 06:21:30 PM
 #338

You proved my point, the fees alone would prevent namecoin from scaling to the point that BitMessage + Namecoin could be a viable alternative to email.

Sure, you could claim that you do not believe it would see that level of adoption and that you *want* to limit the growth artificially but I believe that is copping out.   Why wouldn't we want everyone who is using email now to use BitMessage in the future?   

BitMessage scales, so all we need is a naming solution that also scales.

Also, people expect email accounts to be free.  How long does it take them to mine enough namecoin to register an account?


Everyone using email can use bitmessage in the future instead of email, if they wanted? what is your point?

you can get 1 NMC to register >50 names for  0.4$

Free email accounts are sponsored by ads anyway. So it's ok for names to be non-free. Ad-sponsored coin faucets can mimic the ecosystem of ad-sponsored free emails, I believe (when the adoption becomes large enough).

BitMessage itself has hidden fees (in terms of required proof-of-work to send messages).


Sure, it is cheap to register names today the point is that if demand picked up then it would no longer be cheap.   Also, hidden fees (proof-of-work) is kind of like hidden ads and people can accept that as long as they don't need to pull out actual money to use the system.   

Ad-sponsored faucets... now there is an idea.  Of course, that idea doesn't really scale well if the prices get as high as they would under the demand of 500 million users.    The problem is the bandwidth usage & storage requirements which are just too costly with Namecoin when 500 million users are using the system (assuming they all run a full node).

So instead of just complaining about the bandwidth and storage requirements of namecoin let me make a proposal:

1) separate out the concept of name -> pubkey pairing from  name - value pairing.   For the purpose of BitMessage all you really need is the public key (33 bytes) for a given name.
2) don't store the name in the database, just store a 64 bit hash of the name.  This will give you the best possible compression with only a 50% probability of a single collision with 1 billion users and a collision just means they have to pick a different name.
3) entirely eliminate signatures from the database, signatures are 65+ bytes each and provide no value for the purpose name=>key pairing
4) don't have it based upon a currency, no one wants to 'pay' for a 'user name' or 'email account', these things are disposable and people just select a different name if their first choice is in use, such as bytemaster1 if bytemaster is already taken.   The purpose of the names is to make it easy to share your 'bitmessage address' with others.     

Without any bookkeeping overhead, the minimal size per record is 41 bytes which would be 41 GB for 1 billion users and totally reasonable by the time we got to that many users.   Of course, there must be *some* book keeping overhead in order to prove who has rights to what name and resolve conflicts.   So I propose 'merged mining' on names / blocks.   The minimal difficulty for mining a name is 1 CPU hour ($0.01 electricity).   The difficulty would adjust so that one block is found every 5 minutes and no more than 10,000 names per block are registered per block and thereby enable about 1 billion renewals per year.  The difficulty of the block is the average difficulty of the names included in the block * the total number of names.   People mine for their own name only.

So what information would be required for a name registration transaction?    nonce, time, prev_block_hash, merkle_root, name_hash, public_key all of which could fit into 82 bytes and when compressed into a block with 10,000 names would only require 720KB / block.  This would require an average of 20 kbit / sec sustained with 1 billion users.

By requiring yearly renewal you can eliminate all blocks older than 1 year and each user contributes to securing the network once per year by mining their name for an hour.   This process could be spread out as 10 seconds per day average mining effort.

No one would squat a name because they are not transferrable until they expire (transfers require signatures).   A special exception may be made for canceling a name in the event your key is stolen.

Once you have this in place, Namecoin can be reserved for name->value storage which has entirely different requirements / costs. 

I only bring this up because I want a universal name->public key system that is fully decentralized even if everyone in the world adopted it. 
   





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July 21, 2013, 06:31:46 PM
 #339

I will read all later:

how long do you think it will be before bitmessage/namecoin has 500 million (or 1 billion) users?

p.s. i'm sure your propositions are probably sound... but i don't think this should discourage bitmessage or other software from using namecoin.

imo Smiley

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July 21, 2013, 06:36:02 PM
 #340

I will read all later but:

how long do you think it will be before bitmessage/namecoin has 500 million (or 1 billion) users?

My goal would be to achieve that in 5 years time.  This would require making it easier to use than regular email which I believe is achievable.

https://fractally.com - the next generation of decentralized autonomous organizations (DAOs).
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