brioakes (OP)
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December 09, 2015, 07:17:11 PM |
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Let me be perfectly clear. I do not think Satoshi wants to harm Bitcoin.
However, as a community we need to think rationally about the greatest threats to the Bitcoin project and the best way to mitigate those potential threats. Please treat this as healthy critique to provoke discussion to make bitcoin stronger, not as an attack or proposal.
When I introduce people to Bitcoin, I'm often frustratingly told it is a pyramid scheme because the early adopter(s) own such a high share. I optimistically counter that Satoshi foresaw this and mined as many early bitcoins as he could without the intention of spending them to protect the future integrity from such an unequal wealth distribution.
While I have my doubts about the latest 'unveiling' of Satoshi - it has made me acutely aware we have still no idea who owns these early mined coins, nor their intentions. These untouched coins, if ever they became active, could have huge potential to create instability and damage to Bitcoin. An individual's personal circumstances and motivations can change unpredicatably, people can be put under duress. For example if somebody found out you were Satoshi and threatened harm to you or your family unless you did everything in your power to destroy the bitcoin project, wouldn't you?
The early mined 'untouched' bitcoins represent, to me, the biggest the potential source of damage to the entire project that can be weilded by one individual. The bigger the project becomes, the greater a liability they become.
One possible solition, to safeguard the future of Bitcoin, could be to build into the protocol a rule which prevents these early bitcoins from ever being spendable after a certain date. This gives Satoshi an opportunity to move a quantity (or all the coins) of his choosing IF he wants (or still even has the private keys) to.
That way, the potential weakness is resolved now, rather than a cloud which hangs over the project and potentially threatens it indefinitely.
I do not think Satoshi will act against the best interests of the project, but if there is a risk, no matter how small, I think we have to consider the options to make Bitcoin as succesful as it possibly can be.
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megatron1337
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December 09, 2015, 07:18:42 PM |
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Let me be perfectly clear. I do not think Satoshi wants to harm Bitcoin. how can you know what his intentions are when nobody even really knows who this guy is? |
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croato
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December 09, 2015, 07:31:42 PM |
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I dont see what harm he could do. He can only dump those coins and make cheaper for us non early adopters to buy more. Bitcoin is revolution of money and even if he really want to harm Bitcoin manipulating price, he cant do that in long run. In my opinion, it would be lot better if that dump happen than it stays unknown if he have that keys (or even if he is still alive). We had year of low price and Bitcoin survived, i bet bitcoin would survive even lower price and longer period of that no sweat.
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brioakes (OP)
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December 09, 2015, 07:37:15 PM |
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I dont see what harm he could do. He can only dump those coins and make cheaper for us non early adopters to buy more. Bitcoin is revolution of money and even if he really want to harm Bitcoin manipulating price, he cant do that in long run. In my opinion, it would be lot better if that dump happen than it stays unknown if he have that keys (or even if he is still alive). We had year of low price and Bitcoin survived, i bet bitcoin would survive even lower price and longer period of that no sweat.
Let's do a thought experiment. 15 years from now, Bitcoins and US dollar are the world's two biggest currencies. Bitcoins are worth $1m each and used day to day by approximately 30% of the world's population. Out of the blue, Satoshi's original bitcoins start being moved en mass to bitcoin laundries. What are the economic implications? Potentially catastrophic I would imagine. |
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LiteCoinGuy
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In Satoshi I Trust
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December 09, 2015, 07:41:52 PM |
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Let me be perfectly clear. I do not think Satoshi wants to harm Bitcoin. how can you know what his intentions are when nobody even really knows who this guy is? did you ever read just one word from satoshi? hint: no |
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Amph
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December 09, 2015, 07:43:08 PM |
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I dont see what harm he could do. He can only dump those coins and make cheaper for us non early adopters to buy more. Bitcoin is revolution of money and even if he really want to harm Bitcoin manipulating price, he cant do that in long run. In my opinion, it would be lot better if that dump happen than it stays unknown if he have that keys (or even if he is still alive). We had year of low price and Bitcoin survived, i bet bitcoin would survive even lower price and longer period of that no sweat.
Let's do a thought experiment. 15 years from now, Bitcoins and US dollar are the world's two biggest currencies. Bitcoins are worth $1m each and used day to day by approximately 30% of the world's population. Out of the blue, Satoshi's original bitcoins start being moved en mass to bitcoin laundries. What are the economic implications? Potentially catastrophic I would imagine. at 1M per coin , with around 21M(but probably much less, around 18M) the market cap would be 18T with a much better stability than what we have now, so this mean that demand is fucking crazy at that point even in the case that the market will not hold a dump of 1/18 the worst case would still put us in good range of value, that will recover quickly but besides this why he should kill his own fortune like this? i mean if he really want to sell he will do it slowly, not in one single volley, that would be really stupid |
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croato
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December 09, 2015, 07:45:39 PM |
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I dont see what harm he could do. He can only dump those coins and make cheaper for us non early adopters to buy more. Bitcoin is revolution of money and even if he really want to harm Bitcoin manipulating price, he cant do that in long run. In my opinion, it would be lot better if that dump happen than it stays unknown if he have that keys (or even if he is still alive). We had year of low price and Bitcoin survived, i bet bitcoin would survive even lower price and longer period of that no sweat.
Let's do a thought experiment. 15 years from now, Bitcoins and US dollar are the world's two biggest currencies. Bitcoins are worth $1m each and used day to day by approximately 30% of the world's population. Out of the blue, Satoshi's original bitcoins start being moved en mass to bitcoin laundries. What are the economic implications? Potentially catastrophic I would imagine. That would just ensure that even my children could buy some cheap coins and Bitcoin would recover with time no sweat. In past even worse than that was happened in world economy. Some ppl would lose and jump from roof top like at great depression and some would buy cheap and earn money so they would jump in new swimming pool. Anyway, i dont think that would destroy or even badly harm Bitcoin in long run. EDIT: typo |
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Hugroll
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December 09, 2015, 07:48:09 PM |
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Let me be perfectly clear. I do not think Satoshi wants to harm Bitcoin.
However, as a community we need to think rationally about the greatest threats to the Bitcoin project and the best way to mitigate those potential threats. Please treat this as healthy critique to provoke discussion to make bitcoin stronger, not as an attack or proposal.
When I introduce people to Bitcoin, I'm often frustratingly told it is a pyramid scheme because the early adopter(s) own such a high share. I optimistically counter that Satoshi foresaw this and mined as many early bitcoins as he could without the intention of spending them to protect the future integrity from such an unequal wealth distribution.
While I have my doubts about the latest 'unveiling' of Satoshi - it has made me acutely aware we have still no idea who owns these early mined coins, nor their intentions. These untouched coins, if ever they became active, could have huge potential to create instability and damage to Bitcoin. An individual's personal circumstances and motivations can change unpredicatably, people can be put under duress. For example if somebody found out you were Satoshi and threatened harm to you or your family unless you did everything in your power to destroy the bitcoin project, wouldn't you?
The early mined 'untouched' bitcoins represent, to me, the biggest the potential source of damage to the entire project that can be weilded by one individual. The bigger the project becomes, the greater a liability they become.
One possible solition, to safeguard the future of Bitcoin, could be to build into the protocol a rule which prevents these early bitcoins from ever being spendable after a certain date. This gives Satoshi an opportunity to move a quantity (or all the coins) of his choosing IF he wants (or still even has the private keys) to.
That way, the potential weakness is resolved now, rather than a cloud which hangs over the project and potentially threatens it indefinitely.
I do not think Satoshi will act against the best interests of the project, but if there is a risk, no matter how small, I think we have to consider the options to make Bitcoin as succesful as it possibly can be.
only harm i think he could possibly cause to bitcoin would be lowering the price drastically by selling all of his bitcoins lol. Other than that he really can't do much to harm the network. |
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ivanst776
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December 09, 2015, 07:49:04 PM |
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From an article that i read today i saw that satoshi has somewhere more than 1 million bitcoins which worth ~half billion dollar so he has big power to manipulate the price or anything else.
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DannyHamilton
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December 09, 2015, 07:54:37 PM |
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This suggestion is nonsense. It is ridiculous to even talk about it.
Bitcoin is a consensus based system. You can't make the early bitcoins "unspendable" unless you have consensus from all the full nodes on the system. It is a forking change. If you implement such a change without consensus from all the full nodes, you'll just fork the blockchain into "original bitcoin" and "bitcoin that steals from users". I know which fork I'd choose.
You aren't going to get consensus on this idea. I would be against it, and I am aware of many other full node operators that you are not going to be able to convince to run your thieving software. Therefore, talking about it is a lot like talking about how much we wish that we could go hours at a time without oxygen.
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croato
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December 09, 2015, 07:56:02 PM |
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From an article that i read today i saw that satoshi has somewhere more than 1 million bitcoins which worth ~half billion dollar so he has big power to manipulate the price or anything else.
Noone can tell if he realy have keys from those addresses or even if he is still alive. They can speculate this or that but till funds move, they can tell shit. |
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ivanst776
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December 09, 2015, 08:03:57 PM |
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From an article that i read today i saw that satoshi has somewhere more than 1 million bitcoins which worth ~half billion dollar so he has big power to manipulate the price or anything else.
Noone can tell if he realy have keys from those addresses or even if he is still alive. They can speculate this or that but till funds move, they can tell shit. But some facts about some blogs that he used are real and can not be faked easily, and about the keys yeah we can only speculate. |
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Blawpaw
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December 09, 2015, 08:04:42 PM |
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And suddenly this new story about Craig S Wright being Satoshi seems to be shaking the community. Imagine that this is all a plot to take down BTC. The real Satoshi wouldn't be interested in taking down bitcoin. So, this was all done to set the community on fire. we only will be sure that Craig is the guy as soon as he present some real evidences.
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brioakes (OP)
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December 10, 2015, 01:47:48 PM |
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OK, let's do another thought experiment. Let's not focus too much on satoshi, but actually the 1m early mined bitcoins.
Lets imagine 30 years have passed and by this point, Bitcoin is the universally used world currency.
The vast majority of bitcoins have been spent many times, and are widely distributed between billions of addresses.
Let's say some hacker gets access an old online storage service used by Satoshi that contains his encrypted keys. By this point the encryption is long ceased to be useful, with new quantum computers and processing power.
A rogue individual or group, perhaps a terrorist cell, suddenly owns 5% of all the money in the world.
As unlikely, or far away as this may seem, it surely is a scenario that requires some consideration?
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Rukusilf
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December 10, 2015, 01:56:03 PM |
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Satoshi does not have the right to change the bitcoin protocol any more. What he can do is to dump all his coins, that will cause a mini crash of bitcoin.
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eternalgloom
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December 10, 2015, 01:57:29 PM |
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Do we even know if these early addresses are still accessible?
I mean, for all we know, a big chunk of them could be lost...
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brioakes (OP)
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December 10, 2015, 02:06:00 PM |
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Do we even know if these early addresses are still accessible?
I mean, for all we know, a big chunk of them could be lost...
Exactly my point. They may well be inaccessible forever, but there is no way of knowing. And one day they potentially become a major liability. |
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helloeverybody
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December 10, 2015, 02:26:35 PM |
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You would think if he had access to that address he would have used it by now. Chances are even if he does still have control of them he isn't going to ever use them. Unless we get all conspiracy theory and start thinking it's a government that owns it and is just bidding it's time until Bitcoin has full adoption.
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RodeoX
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The revolution will be monetized!
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December 10, 2015, 02:46:08 PM |
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Satoshi has no more control over bitcoin than you do. It is possible that he has a large stash of coins that could be dumped and cause a temporary dip in price. But the network is beyond anyone's control.
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maokoto
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December 10, 2015, 03:38:18 PM |
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I am not as sure with him having no control. He has lots of money and lots and lots of knowledge about Bitcoin. Money and knowledge are both power, and he has a lot. Not to mention the impact of his opinions and how much he could influence by just appearing and saying things.
He can pay miners with his money to do whatever. He can mislead or lead people in other directions with his opinions. He can appear and promote a new fork (and support his cause with lots of money). He can create a new mining company (lol) and get many many people trust him just for who he is. He can promote the cause to turn Bitcoin in a POS coin ...
Do not get me wrong. Perhaps you are right and he has not that much control. But perhaps he can influence it in ways we cannot really see. I would not say "He cannot do anything" with such certainty.
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