Freedom is ...

[FirstAscent]

What will the second class citizens do when a sicko gets into a position of power, such as the one overseeing all of those regulated and trained law enforcers.

Most of the law enforcers will simply refuse to follow his orders.

That's an interesting theory. How has that worked in the past?

Quite well, given a well thought out government. We learn as much and more from the common cases than the outliers.

Care to present some of those "common cases"?

You mean all those in aggregate hundreds and hundreds of years the world's nations having not made the headlines because their leader was not another Hitler?

Myrkul, try for once to convince me that your untested, unrealized, and unaccepted idea for no government is actually appealing. Try to convince me that 300 million guns is not enough, and one billion guns in the hands of everyone is what we want. Try to convince me that aspiring nuclear bomb owners who can actually obtain said devices are what we want. Try to convince me that your uninhibited money buys rights and justice is what we want.

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[myrkul]

What will the second class citizens do when a sicko gets into a position of power, such as the one overseeing all of those regulated and trained law enforcers.

Most of the law enforcers will simply refuse to follow his orders.

That's an interesting theory. How has that worked in the past?

Quite well, given a well thought out government. We learn as much and more from the common cases than the outliers.

Care to present some of those "common cases"?

You mean all those in aggregate hundreds and hundreds of years the world's nations having not made the headlines because their leader was not another Hitler?

Meaning, you don't actually have any examples, but you're sure they happened, right?

[FirstAscent]

What will the second class citizens do when a sicko gets into a position of power, such as the one overseeing all of those regulated and trained law enforcers.

Most of the law enforcers will simply refuse to follow his orders.

That's an interesting theory. How has that worked in the past?

Quite well, given a well thought out government. We learn as much and more from the common cases than the outliers.

Care to present some of those "common cases"?

You mean all those in aggregate hundreds and hundreds of years the world's nations having not made the headlines because their leader was not another Hitler?

Meaning, you don't actually have any examples, but you're sure they happened, right?

So you're saying every time there's an example of your imagined Hitler event not happening, it doesn't count as an example?

[myrkul]

What will the second class citizens do when a sicko gets into a position of power, such as the one overseeing all of those regulated and trained law enforcers.

Most of the law enforcers will simply refuse to follow his orders.

That's an interesting theory. How has that worked in the past?

Quite well, given a well thought out government. We learn as much and more from the common cases than the outliers.

Care to present some of those "common cases"?

You mean all those in aggregate hundreds and hundreds of years the world's nations having not made the headlines because their leader was not another Hitler?

Meaning, you don't actually have any examples, but you're sure they happened, right?

So you're saying every time there's an example of your imagined Hitler event not happening, it doesn't count as an example?

No, remember, we're looking for examples of this happening:

Most of the law enforcers will simply refuse to follow his orders.

Not examples of this not happening:

when a sicko gets into a position of power, such as the one overseeing all of those regulated and trained law enforcers

And you don't have any.

[neptop]

On the topic:

...a state of mind.

[DoomDumas]

Freedom will be possible only in a world without the monetary system !

Peddle your robocommunism elsewhere.

Myrkul, Im quite tired of this closed-minded cat spaming the same hyper-libertarain stuff everywhere..

Your message would be more received if you show more open minded message, and not spamming that much certitude from your point of view...

Only mad folks did'nt changed mind, or at least, take a serious look at different opinion.

Seems you like to post provocative thread, to then refute each and every point that did'nt fit your mindset..

Enought for me.. wont read more from you

[myrkul]

Freedom will be possible only in a world without the monetary system !

Peddle your robocommunism elsewhere.

Myrkul, Im quite tired of this closed-minded cat spaming the same hyper-libertarain stuff everywhere..

Your message would be more received if you show more open minded message, and not spamming that much certitude from your point of view...

Only mad folks did'nt changed mind, or at least, take a serious look at different opinion.

Do you think I have not examined both Zeitgeist and The Venus Project? I have examined it in great detail, and found it to be communism in another disguise, and thus rejected it.

Seems you like to post provocative thread, to then refute each and every point that did'nt fit your mindset..

Yes, I do like to shut down lies with the truth. But you'll note that I did not start this thread.

Enought for me.. wont read more from you

Just respond to this:

"a theory or system of social organization that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc., in the population as a whole. "

Does that sound anything like Zeitgeist?

[Rassah]

Positions in law enforcement tend to attract people with interests in power and forcing people to follow the rule of law. Oftentimes those are people with high morals, who wish to keep the peace and protect the citizens. Also, often, it's people who think they know what is best for society, and who tend to get a bit of a high from power. Once the laws get more restrictive, the power hungry enforce-the-law types tend to get more control, and push those who may have moral objections to the law out of the force. They can, because the law says they are right. In the end, you end up with a bunch of power-hungry psychopaths who believe they are doing the right thing because the law says so, even when the law itself isn't right. Besides the obvious Hitler example, there's also the rise of Soviet Union, and the modern China, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Russia again, and pretty much every other dictatorship and faux-Democracy out there. Egyptian army putting down its weapons and refusing to fight its population  during the uprising is the only example of your claim I could think of, but even that is becoming somewhat questionable now, as the army is one of the groups contending to take power there.

[organofcorti]

Just respond to this:

"a theory or system of social organization that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc., in the population as a whole. "

Does that sound anything like Zeitgeist?

Hey myrkul, this Zeitgeist thingy would be awesome! I'd be happy not to have to work ever again - just lie on a beach all day (except between 10:30am and 3:30pm when it gets too hot) eating mangoes and drinking coconut juice. It would be a life long Christmas holiday! Yay!

[luv2drnkbr]

Luv2drnkbr's comment, however, was made from the perspective of the shooter, as evinced by the use of "I," and "my." And he never references his state of mind, or intent.

Intent and state of mind are completely useless (until further advances in neuroscience develop).  People can lie about intent and it's impossible to legislate.  All we can do is monitor actions and statistical consequences.  Intent and state of mind only matter inasmuch as they are precursors to, and puppet masters of, actions.

[myrkul]

Luv2drnkbr's comment, however, was made from the perspective of the shooter, as evinced by the use of "I," and "my." And he never references his state of mind, or intent.

Intent and state of mind are completely useless (until further advances in neuroscience develop).  People can lie about intent and it's impossible to legislate.  All we can do is monitor actions and statistical consequences.  Intent and state of mind only matter inasmuch as they are precursors to, and puppet masters of, actions.

Precisely. It doesn't matter why he's shooting people, if he's shooting people, he needs to be shot in return.