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Author Topic: Peerbet.org - Play without house edge!  (Read 106570 times)
giantdragon (OP)
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March 01, 2013, 07:09:41 PM
 #181

Another big raffle with 20 BTC prize waiting completion and expires tomorrow!
https://peerbet.org/raffle.php?id=743764
jsCoin
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March 05, 2013, 04:43:05 AM
 #182

In the android app if you create a game then use it as a template to create another game and repeat you can create an deep stack of activities.  The only way to get back to the raffle list is to press back through all of the activities.  There should be a menu option to go back to the raffle list or limit activity depth to the create activity and the bet activity so the raffle list is never more than 2 presses of back away.
giantdragon (OP)
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March 05, 2013, 04:03:10 PM
 #183

In the android app if you create a game then use it as a template to create another game and repeat you can create an deep stack of activities.  The only way to get back to the raffle list is to press back through all of the activities.  There should be a menu option to go back to the raffle list or limit activity depth to the create activity and the bet activity so the raffle list is never more than 2 presses of back away.
I see, thank you for the report.
Otoh
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March 06, 2013, 10:27:52 PM
 #184

Well in the last week of tying out this site I lost the 15 btc that I put in, I wasn't expecting it to be drained so fast but maybe that was because of the type of bets that I made, with no house rake I'd expected to be around, up & down, for longer - anyway as it's obviously not so lucky for me atm I shall leave it alone, if it's still around in a few months & getting good feedback then I may try some more - I like the concept a lot & all my bets were of the 'provably fair' type, but as yet I'm not totally confident re that, no offense intended.

BTC = $c²     My BTC addie = 1otohotohMoQoxHuxLBveQiZcV3Pji3Tc 
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CHARITY | MY REP | PREDICTION 1 | PREDICTION 2 | PREDICTION 3
giantdragon (OP)
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March 06, 2013, 10:33:20 PM
Last edit: March 06, 2013, 10:43:54 PM by giantdragon
 #185

all my bets were of the 'provably fair' type, but as yet I'm not totally confident re that
Could you provide explanation for possible ways to breach security of the provably fair games?

You have gambler's fallacy IMHO.
Otoh
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March 06, 2013, 11:13:57 PM
 #186

I apologize, as it's a new site I can't be sure & I'm sorry to say that, say though I left a bet & the house finished it maybe they could choose to wait for a winning hash block to post this as it isn't time stamped on the site when the bets get filled, again I'm no expert & am not accusing anything, I lost for now & that could be totally random luck - it's a new site so I'll wait for more informed feedback before I start playing for higher stakes, again no offense intended - I like the concept a lot!

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CHARITY | MY REP | PREDICTION 1 | PREDICTION 2 | PREDICTION 3
Otoh
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March 06, 2013, 11:25:17 PM
 #187

re: gambler's fallacy, I do realize that my bets could have all gone against me especially as I made only a few, I just wasn't 100% reassured that the house couldn't pick winning blocks unless it was me who bought the final tickets in a game, again no offense intended - I just don't understand it enough to be sure & will wait for the smart ppl here like Dooglas to audit it.

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giantdragon (OP)
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March 06, 2013, 11:53:48 PM
 #188

I left a bet & the house finished it maybe they could choose to wait for a winning hash block to post this as it isn't time stamped on the site when the bets get filled
When next Bitcoin block arrives and the raffle is drawn, you can open its page and will see timestamp when last ticket was sold (on the top right after "Status: Finished"), so you can be sure that raffle finished before Bitcoin block generated.
dree12
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March 07, 2013, 12:04:59 AM
 #189

Well in the last week of tying out this site I lost the 15 btc that I put in, I wasn't expecting it to be drained so fast but maybe that was because of the type of bets that I made, with no house rake I'd expected to be around, up & down, for longer - anyway as it's obviously not so lucky for me atm I shall leave it alone, if it's still around in a few months & getting good feedback then I may try some more - I like the concept a lot & all my bets were of the 'provably fair' type, but as yet I'm not totally confident re that, no offense intended.

What happened here is not because of fairness, but rather because of strategy.

There are strategies in Peerbet that are almost guaranteed to lose one their money. These strategies effectively convert Peerbet to a low-rake lottery. One of the common ones is the proportional bet strategy, which many people subconsciously adopt.

For example, imagine a hypothetical person with 1000 XBT to bet. He always bets 10% of his balance at 50/50 odds. You may expect him to have a 50/50 chance of being in the green. But let's examine the actual case.

After one bet, your expectation would be accurate.
Code:
50% 1100 XBT
BREAKEVEN 50%/50%
50% 900  XBT

But after two bets, it becomes clear that this isn't the case.
Code:
25% 1210 XBT
BREAKEVEN 25%/75%
50% 990  XBT
25% 810 XBT

There's a short return to the mean at three bets:
Code:
12.5% 1331 XBT
37.5% 1089 XBT
BREAKEVEN 50%/50%
37.5% 891  XBT
12.5% 729  XBT

But that is a short-lived return. If you noticed, the chances of each option is also a binomial coefficient. Now, we just need to model the median to determine what the most likely scenario is. For zero or one bet, the median is 1000 XBT. For two or three bets, it drops to 990 XBT. Because in theory betting with 1000 XBT is no different from betting with 990 XBT, we can now deduce that for every two bets, the median drops to 0.99× of what it was.

This means that starting with 1000 XBT, after 1000 bets, you should expect to be at ~6.57 XBT, effectively losing most of your money. So where did the "no house edge" go?

It turns out that this picture is not all bleak. The missing money is in the unlikely rewards. There is virtually no upper limit on the amount you can earn (the practical upper limit is that nobody will bet that high if you get lucky) if you win every game. But if you lose every game, you can lose at most 1000 XBT. This is where the lottery analogy comes in: you play a small amount, and you have the small chance to win a large amount.

There are, in fact, strategies that avoid this problem. Although they have far lower reward, the reward occurs often. However, when they are not rewarded, they can lose a significant amount of money; effectively reversing the lottery. Peerbet effectively lets you either play the lottery or run the lottery without a house edge, which is its greatest advantage. But you must educate yourself on probability theory before you take the plunge, or you will come up with an undesirable strategy.
Otoh
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March 07, 2013, 12:05:47 AM
 #190

Many thanks, that's reassuring & yes my few bets were way too small a number to be making judgements, I shall wait for a more personal (hopefully) auspicious time to try it out again.


BTC = $c²     My BTC addie = 1otohotohMoQoxHuxLBveQiZcV3Pji3Tc 
Bitstamp Exchange: Referal Code
CHARITY | MY REP | PREDICTION 1 | PREDICTION 2 | PREDICTION 3
jsCoin
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March 07, 2013, 07:24:15 AM
Last edit: March 07, 2013, 09:31:27 AM by jsCoin
 #191

on the website if you click 'buy all' on a private game that you are not authorized for you get a popup with markup in it.  A better response would be a prompt for authentication.  Or don't show the 'Buy All' button for locked games.

Great work on the site so far.

I have gotten into the JSON API now.  I know changing this API could break all kinds of things but what is the reasoning behind having integer types as strings in the JSON?
giantdragon (OP)
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March 07, 2013, 03:58:29 PM
 #192

on the website if you click 'buy all' on a private game that you are not authorized for you get a popup with markup in it.  A better response would be a prompt for authentication.  Or don't show the 'Buy All' button for locked games.
Fixed, just will not show Buy All for private games. Thank you for the suggestion!
giantdragon (OP)
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March 08, 2013, 07:16:59 PM
 #193

Blockchain.info is down. Determining the winner of provably fair games may be delayed during this outage.
giantdragon (OP)
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March 09, 2013, 04:51:17 AM
 #194

Blockchain.info is online again. Provably fair raffles and instant withdrawals working now!
jsCoin
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March 09, 2013, 09:47:50 PM
 #195

API feature request:
filter parameters on activeraffles method.  The ability to request active raffles by the same parameters that are included in the response would be fantasctic. At a minimum filter by same parameters as the website.

created
instant
protected
expire
ticket_price
tickets_total
tickets_sold
giantdragon (OP)
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March 10, 2013, 09:53:25 PM
 #196

API feature request:
filter parameters on activeraffles method.  The ability to request active raffles by the same parameters that are included in the response would be fantasctic. At a minimum filter by same parameters as the website.

created
instant
protected
expire
ticket_price
tickets_total
tickets_sold
Your request accepted.
jsCoin
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March 11, 2013, 01:46:43 AM
 #197

giantdragon,

I really appreciate the quick response to my requests.  The last day or so there have been many timed out requests to the website.  I have had an API request time out more than 30 times(2 second intervals + timeout).  The Android app is reporting timeouts as well(I assume this is using the JSON API).  There have consistently been 20-40 people reported online on the website.  Are there any plans to do anything to alleviate the apparent server load problems?
giantdragon (OP)
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March 11, 2013, 03:41:07 AM
 #198

Are there any plans to do anything to alleviate the apparent server load problems?
I periodically check server's performance and didn't noticed any significant slowdown last time. Most probably it was connection speed drop on your ISP.

BTW, I use Pingdom to monitor Peerbet server (loads raffle list page each minute). Look chart for yesterday:

jsCoin
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March 11, 2013, 04:27:06 AM
 #199

Thank you for the stats.
giantdragon (OP)
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March 11, 2013, 09:10:11 PM
 #200

Translation system and russian locale now available! If you like Peerbet you can help translating website and Android app to your language, see locale files and Android app strings.xml.

Also new domain available: peerbet.ru.
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