[POLL] Should BFL get a Scammer tag?

[Frizz23]

It's getting more and more obvious that either BFL scams us directly, or they are scammed by their Asian fab. The result is the same: We lose our money.

Figuring out which version is the truth is sort of pointless: Going through all of BFLs excuses, half-truths, weasel-words and even blatant lies is very tiring.

All I can say is the way they behave, the way they present themselves (insulting and putting of (potential) customers on a daily basis), especially their public face Inaba/Josh, is not that of a company that actually wants to make money - but that of a company that already has made their share and keep it.

So I'd say enough is enough.

[EDIT: Please see also Fjordbits post]

...
The problem I have with BFL is not that they promised in June a delivery in October. At that point in time, I didn't really believe it and even made posts saying to expect delivery in March.

The problem I have is that a few months later when other ASIC vendors announced their products, BFL reiterated that their October date was solid. In my opinion, this caused people to not invest in ASCIMINER, and not preorder bASIC and Avalon, and instead go with BFL. In other words, BFL was pushing forward this statement to their financial gain. It's one thing when you are the only vendor in town, but when you are making statements as a means to block competition and get more money, then a scammer tag is warranted.

BFL really should have known that they would not make the October date by September. But we got statements about bullet runs and whatnot. The fact that BFL was making design adjustments as in possibly October, but seemingly as late as November shows that the initial slippage is not because of their fab, but because of BFL's design team. The fab can be blamed for this recent change in dates (to a certain point, BFL is ultimately responsible for their fab), but the other dates are all BFL.
...

[pieppiep]

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=127158.0

[Frizz23]

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=127158.0

Not a poll.

[SLok]

It's getting more and more obvious that either BFL scams us directly, or they are scammed by their Asian fab. The result is the same: We lose our money.

Figuring out which version is the truth is sort of pointless: Going through all of BFLs excuses, half-truths, weasel-words and even blatant lies is very tiring.

All I can say is the way they behave, the way they present themselves (insulting and putting of (potential) customers on a daily basis), especially their public face Inaba/Josh, is not that of a company that actually wants to make money - but that of a company that already has made their share and keep it.

So I'd say enough is enough.

Something to learn from them Frizz, and all done by just one account, where you at least need about 6 to do that (insulting and lying on a daily basis)! Now, have you canceled that "order" yet? Fried asshamster anyone?

[creativex]

Plainly, the answer is yes. BFL has lied about shipping dates for months and they're still lying. They're still painting rosey pictures of their shipping plans and attempting to shift blame for the delays to an unaccountable fab. This has been done to lure in pre-orders away from other manufacturers that are actually much nearer to shipping products.

To be clear I still expect BFL to ship products, but the ROI for those recipients will be much longer than originally projected and there is an ever increasing risk that this company will run off with the funds or be forced into insolvency.

[wdBTCtrader]

If they should get a scammer tag then so should every other company that has promised an asic by now and hasn't delivered.

[creativex]

If they should get a scammer tag then so should every other company that has promised an asic by now and hasn't delivered.

I disagree at this point, but perhaps I will change my opinion in the future. While BTCFPGA has indeed missed a single shipping date, they(Tom) shouldered the blame himself and didn't pretend as though there was an easy fix or that shipping would be 2 weeks out. Additionally BTCFPGA did not begin accepting pre-order funds until much later. Though this could have been handled somewhat better, Tom has sweetened the pot for his customers, softening the blow.

At any rate, this thread is about BFL's indiscretions, if you'd like to start a poll with regard to BTCFPGA then I'd be interested in the results.

[wdBTCtrader]

If they should get a scammer tag then so should every other company that has promised an asic by now and hasn't delivered.

I disagree at this point, but perhaps I will change my opinion in the future. While BTCFPGA has indeed missed a single shipping date, they(Tom) shouldered the blame himself and didn't pretend as though there was an easy fix or that shipping would be 2 weeks out. Additionally BTCFPGA did not begin accepting pre-order funds until much later. Though this could have been handled somewhat better, Tom has sweetened the pot for his customers, softening the blow.

At any rate, this thread is about BFL's indiscretions, if you'd like to start a poll with regard to BTCFPGA then I'd be interested in the results.

Why should we not hold everyone by the same standards?

1. They took funds for a product
2. They failed to deliver that product.

This is the criteria for scammer that you all have set forth.  It should be applied equally to all.

[Frizz23]

Why should we not hold everyone by the same standards?

... rarara ...

Then for f*cks sake create your own poll!

I am seriously sick of all this "OK BFL sucks but the others suck too" comments.

How about your car? "OK Ford has only 3 tires and no engine - but look! BMW has not even steering wheel!". Does your logic apply there as well?

Instead of lowering the bar we should aim to rise it - or at least keep it where it is.

[creativex]

If they should get a scammer tag then so should every other company that has promised an asic by now and hasn't delivered.

I disagree at this point, but perhaps I will change my opinion in the future. While BTCFPGA has indeed missed a single shipping date, they(Tom) shouldered the blame himself and didn't pretend as though there was an easy fix or that shipping would be 2 weeks out. Additionally BTCFPGA did not begin accepting pre-order funds until much later. Though this could have been handled somewhat better, Tom has sweetened the pot for his customers, softening the blow.

At any rate, this thread is about BFL's indiscretions, if you'd like to start a poll with regard to BTCFPGA then I'd be interested in the results.

Why should we not hold everyone by the same standards?

1. They took funds for a product
2. They failed to deliver that product.

This is the criteria for scammer that you all have set forth.  It should be applied equally to all.

I *JUST* told you why I personally disagree, please look up. Did you bother reading my post?

[Syke]

It's getting more and more obvious that either BFL scams us directly, or they are scammed by their Asian fab.

This is BFL's first ASIC. Any fab that does 65nm has done thousands of runs of ASICs. BFL's lack of experience is the true cause of the delays. Not the fab.

[salfter]

 

(to the tune of the Lone Ranger theme)

Get a life, get a life, get a life-life-life,
Get a life, get a life, get a life-life-life,
Get a life, get a life, get a life-life-life,
Get a liiiiiiiiife, get a life-life-life!

[wdBTCtrader]

If they should get a scammer tag then so should every other company that has promised an asic by now and hasn't delivered.

I disagree at this point, but perhaps I will change my opinion in the future. While BTCFPGA has indeed missed a single shipping date, they(Tom) shouldered the blame himself and didn't pretend as though there was an easy fix or that shipping would be 2 weeks out. Additionally BTCFPGA did not begin accepting pre-order funds until much later. Though this could have been handled somewhat better, Tom has sweetened the pot for his customers, softening the blow.

At any rate, this thread is about BFL's indiscretions, if you'd like to start a poll with regard to BTCFPGA then I'd be interested in the results.

Why should we not hold everyone by the same standards?

1. They took funds for a product
2. They failed to deliver that product.

This is the criteria for scammer that you all have set forth.  It should be applied equally to all.

I *JUST* told you why I personally disagree, please look up. Did you bother reading my post?

Yes, but I fail to see the difference. Frankly, I knew nothing about BTCFPGA until you mentioned it, but what you stated in your post is they failed to deliver a product..

BTCFPGA has indeed missed a single shipping date

for which they took money...

Additionally BTCFPGA did not begin accepting pre-order funds until much later.

But it seems to me that some of you only wish to assassinate 1 company and not hold everyone's feet to the fire.



  

[Frizz23]

This is BFL's first ASIC. Any fab that does 65nm has done thousands of runs of ASICs. BFL's lack of experience is the true cause of the delays. Not the fab.

So version 1 applies (BFL scams us). Because they claim that their fab can't keep deadlines, is hard to get hold on, etc. - while instead BFL is not able to manage the (65nm) process. And possibly never will be (within reasonable time (3 years) and reasonable budget (10 million USD)).

[creativex]

But it seems to me that some of you only wish to assassinate 1 company and not hold everyone's feet to the fire.

Fascinating. You ignored every single point I made save the ones you prefer. Your post may have had some merit if this poll existed the first, second, or third time BFL had announced a delay, but it did not exist to my knowledge. Thus your suggestion is that others should be held to a HIGHER standard than BFL.

[wdBTCtrader]

But it seems to me that some of you only wish to assassinate 1 company and not hold everyone's feet to the fire.

Fascinating. You ignored every single point I made save the ones you prefer. Your post may have had some merit if this poll existed the first, second, or third time BFL had announced a delay, but it did not exist to my knowledge. Thus your suggestion is that others should be held to a HIGHER standard than BFL.

not at all.  I read your excuses, but that is all they were. 

I'm honestly not defending BFL. I have questioned them when I smelled bullshit, but I hold everyone to the same standard.  I"m just so sick and tired of seeing these post full of conjecture and overlooking facts just to fit the OP's assumptions..

[wdBTCtrader]

Why should we not hold everyone by the same standards?

... rarara ...

Then for f*cks sake create your own poll!

I am seriously sick of all this "OK BFL sucks but the others suck too" comments.

How about your car? "OK Ford has only 3 tires and no engine - but look! BMW has not even steering wheel!". Does your logic apply there as well?

Instead of lowering the bar we should aim to rise it - or at least keep it where it is.

This a public forum and I am on topic so for "f*cks sake" grow up. 

[creativex]

But it seems to me that some of you only wish to assassinate 1 company and not hold everyone's feet to the fire.

Fascinating. You ignored every single point I made save the ones you prefer. Your post may have had some merit if this poll existed the first, second, or third time BFL had announced a delay, but it did not exist to my knowledge. Thus your suggestion is that others should be held to a HIGHER standard than BFL.

not at all.  I read your excuses, but that is all they were. 

I'm honestly not defending BFL. I have questioned them when I smelled bullshit, but I hold everyone to the same standard.  I"m just so sick and tired of seeing these post full of conjecture and overlooking facts just to fit the OP's assumptions..

Facts? The facts then:

BFL took money for a product that did not exist months before anyone else did. True or false?

BFL has announced more delays than everyone else combined. True or false?

BFL has missed their "scheduled shipping" timeline by a wider margin than anyone else. True or false?

BFL has offered nothing concrete to compensate customers for these delays. True or false?

[Frizz23]

This a public forum and I am on topic so for "f*cks sake" grow up. 

No you are not. This poll is about BFL. If you wish create one for bASIC. And for Avalon.

[wdBTCtrader]

But it seems to me that some of you only wish to assassinate 1 company and not hold everyone's feet to the fire.

Fascinating. You ignored every single point I made save the ones you prefer. Your post may have had some merit if this poll existed the first, second, or third time BFL had announced a delay, but it did not exist to my knowledge. Thus your suggestion is that others should be held to a HIGHER standard than BFL.

not at all.  I read your excuses, but that is all they were.  

I'm honestly not defending BFL. I have questioned them when I smelled bullshit, but I hold everyone to the same standard.  I"m just so sick and tired of seeing these post full of conjecture and overlooking facts just to fit the OP's assumptions..

Facts? The facts then:

BFL took money for a product that did not exist months before anyone else did. True or false?

BFL has announced more delays than everyone else combined. True or false?

BFL has missed their "scheduled shipping" timeline by a wider margin than anyone else. True or false?

BFL has offered nothing concrete to compensate customers for these delays. True or false?

So you do agree with my statement:

If they should get a scammer tag then so should every other company that has promised an asic by now and hasn't delivered.