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Author Topic: [BitFunder] My name is Bond. MPOE Bond. ( Jan: 9.99%, Feb: 4.8% Mar: -23%)  (Read 8796 times)
TradeFortress
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April 15, 2013, 04:45:26 AM
 #81

They are naked but are covered by the bond holders, which is in BTC, so not naked?

What is naked? Maybe I just don't understand what you mean by naked?
naked = not owning the underlying instrument.

In this case, MPOE does own bitcoin in the form of bondholders covering the losses.

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April 15, 2013, 11:05:19 AM
 #82

They are naked but are covered by the bond holders, which is in BTC, so not naked?

What is naked? Maybe I just don't understand what you mean by naked?
naked = not owning the underlying instrument.

In this case, MPOE does own bitcoin in the form of bondholders covering the losses.

Peter, getting acquainted with the elementary terminology is a must Wink
Who ever wrote that https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=67302.msg782987#msg782987 needs to do the same. LOL.

Problem is, MPOE owns NOTHING. BTC is borrowed from you with no obligation to return the principal nor interest earned. Basically you are the one who wrote all those cheap Calls while bot was playing with your BTC.

March 2013 MtGox BTC:USD market looked like this:


If bot wrote a Put option, you did OK because most of those probably never made any money for the buyers while writer keeps the premium.
If bot was writing Calls, most of those where "in the money" in matter of days or even hours and you basically sold your BTC at strike+premium-bot fee.

While reading what I wrote, use the most friendliest and relaxing voice in your head.
BTW, Things in BTC bubble universes are getting ugly....
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April 15, 2013, 11:06:30 AM
 #83

That's correct EskimoBob. Please look at the whole sentence however, I mentioned that.

"MPOE does own bitcoin in the form of bondholders covering the losses".

Overall returns have being heavily negative. I'm not putting any coins in mpoe bonds.

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April 27, 2013, 01:27:02 AM
 #84

Another wild month with price instability causing 36% EDIT: 23.5% (my mistake) loss to bondholders. MPOE statement.

The commentary mentions MPOE pricing model was now improved, and says:
Quote
If you hold MPEx bonds you are well advised to consider carefully the bot pricing as visible on the site currently, and to make your own determination as to its worthiness. You have, as always, the entire weekend as a grace period, during which bonds can be withdrawn, interest rates can be changed or new bonds made that count for the current month (May).

As the sales of CoinBr.MPBPT-O May were weak so far, we have preliminary agreement with other parties to jointly buy May bonds. If they don't succeed, CoinBr.MPBPT-O shareholders will be refunded by 0.1 BTC per share on Monday.


CoinBr.com: First online MPEx brokerage launched beta! Easy to use interface and reasonable fees. Charts for MPEx stocks: live.coinbr.com * My Blog *
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April 27, 2013, 10:19:47 AM
 #85

Another wild month with price instability causing 36% loss to bondholders. MPOE statement.

The commentary mentions MPOE pricing model was now improved, and says:
Quote
If you hold MPEx bonds you are well advised to consider carefully the bot pricing as visible on the site currently, and to make your own determination as to its worthiness. You have, as always, the entire weekend as a grace period, during which bonds can be withdrawn, interest rates can be changed or new bonds made that count for the current month (May).

As the sales of CoinBr.MPBPT-O May were weak so far, we have preliminary agreement with other parties to jointly buy May bonds. If they don't succeed, CoinBr.MPBPT-O shareholders will be refunded by 0.1 BTC per share on Monday.



So you are saying that the smartest Romanian on the planet, aka spammer Mircea Popescu, managed to write a "trading" bot, that lost another pile of BTC while trading options on the exchange he named after himself? Talk about vanity... LOL!

I think you guys need to give this pompous sociopath and narcissist another 10 000 BTC, so he can rip you off for the third time.
But... maybe Mircea Popescu dumb bot gets lucky this time? You never know.
Will greed and stupidity prevail?

While reading what I wrote, use the most friendliest and relaxing voice in your head.
BTW, Things in BTC bubble universes are getting ugly....
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April 27, 2013, 11:13:56 AM
 #86

Since MPOE bot uses average price from bitcoincharts, and it's unavailable, there are no quotes and checking the new pricing is not possible at the moment. However, this is also good opportunity for everyone to place your own options on MPEx. CoinBr users are welcome to inquiry via email, PM or irc, we can create options for you manually. Basic information.

CoinBr.com: First online MPEx brokerage launched beta! Easy to use interface and reasonable fees. Charts for MPEx stocks: live.coinbr.com * My Blog *
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April 27, 2013, 06:29:15 PM
 #87

Since MPOE bot uses average price from bitcoincharts, and it's unavailable, there are no quotes and checking the new pricing is not possible at the moment. However, this is also good opportunity for everyone to place your own options on MPEx. CoinBr users are welcome to inquiry via email, PM or irc, we can create options for you manually. Basic information.




While reading what I wrote, use the most friendliest and relaxing voice in your head.
BTW, Things in BTC bubble universes are getting ugly....
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April 28, 2013, 07:50:25 PM
 #88

CoinBr.MPBPT-E April liquidated for 0.07650118 per share.

CoinBr.MPBPT-O May will not proceed with bond investment due to lack of interest (and no partner to enable us to meet 100BTC minimum). Raised funds were returned (0.1 BTC per share).

Further plans are under consideration.

CoinBr.com: First online MPEx brokerage launched beta! Easy to use interface and reasonable fees. Charts for MPEx stocks: live.coinbr.com * My Blog *
usagi
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April 29, 2013, 01:04:14 AM
 #89

Since MPOE bot uses average price from bitcoincharts, and it's unavailable, there are no quotes and checking the new pricing is not possible at the moment. However, this is also good opportunity for everyone to place your own options on MPEx. CoinBr users are welcome to inquiry via email, PM or irc, we can create options for you manually. Basic information.



If you invest money into something that is tied to US dollars and BTC rises in value, you will lose money priced in BTC. The same thing happenes whether or not you purchase a kiln in LTC (yes, ART on LTC-GLOBAL), an LTC bond denominated in BTC, mining hardware or mining bonds (i.e. BMF, CPA, GIGAMINING, YABMC etc.) or even the outright purchase of a call on BTC denominated in us dollars. That's why it was not logical to complain when your own company ART lost 99.5% of it's value.

Back in August IIRC, MPOE Bond lost 46%. Just like BMF. And now they lost like 30% and 25% back to back. C'est la vie. I think it's time that investors here face the reality that BTC is not a magical shield against investing into a US dollar denominated asset, and that when you invest in something you no longer hold BTC, but the asset you have invested in. So when people say that they lost money in something like MPOE Bond that isn't really true. They didn't gain or lose any MPOE Bonds. But the MPOE Bonds themselves are not worth as much as before. That's just a fact. And when you get served your .18 BTC on the dollar, you should say to yourself "Hey, that's worth $23 now, twice as much as I invested!". Not "Shit I just lost 80% of my money". One of these feelings is logical -- one is not.

What happened here was not special. It was predictable. I myself sold out of CoinBr.MPBPT-O back in March because I saw it coming. I sold out at about 0.102 (at a profit). And, as much as I would love to say "ha ha" to MPOE-PR, the fact here is that this is not their "fault".

What happened is simple and easily explained. As the price rose, MPOE Bond wrote/sold and had executed more and more calls at a loss. Lesson learned: Do not invest in MPOE Bond if the price is expected to move in only one direction throughout the month. OTOH stable prices or volatile prices in a trading channel will likely be more profitable.
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April 29, 2013, 02:05:06 AM
 #90

If you invest money into something that is tied to US dollars and BTC rises in value, you will lose money priced in BTC. The same thing happenes whether or not you purchase a kiln in LTC (yes, ART on LTC-GLOBAL), an LTC bond denominated in BTC, mining hardware or mining bonds (i.e. BMF, CPA, GIGAMINING, YABMC etc.) or even the outright purchase of a call on BTC denominated in us dollars. That's why it was not logical to complain when your own company ART lost 99.5% of it's value.

Back in August IIRC, MPOE Bond lost 46%. Just like BMF. And now they lost like 30% and 25% back to back. C'est la vie. I think it's time that investors here face the reality that BTC is not a magical shield against investing into a US dollar denominated asset, and that when you invest in something you no longer hold BTC, but the asset you have invested in. So when people say that they lost money in something like MPOE Bond that isn't really true. They didn't gain or lose any MPOE Bonds. But the MPOE Bonds themselves are not worth as much as before. That's just a fact. And when you get served your .18 BTC on the dollar, you should say to yourself "Hey, that's worth $23 now, twice as much as I invested!". Not "Shit I just lost 80% of my money". One of these feelings is logical -- one is not.

What happened here was not special. It was predictable. I myself sold out of CoinBr.MPBPT-O back in March because I saw it coming. I sold out at about 0.102 (at a profit). And, as much as I would love to say "ha ha" to MPOE-PR, the fact here is that this is not their "fault".

What happened is simple and easily explained. As the price rose, MPOE Bond wrote/sold and had executed more and more calls at a loss. Lesson learned: Do not invest in MPOE Bond if the price is expected to move in only one direction throughout the month. OTOH stable prices or volatile prices in a trading channel will likely be more profitable.
You do realise MPOE bond isn't dollar denominated?  The problem is you're investing blind - you have no idea of the competence of the bot's algorithm (apparently insufficient as MP has been tweaking it), you're also investing blind for interest rates, and as you point out you tend to be exposed to severe market moves in one direction when writing options.

Given the trust in MP and other blindness involved it's difficult to see much rational value proposition here, unless monthly rates are extremely high (say 25% or more, even then you'd be down over the last year I think if you calculate the compounded return).  I suspect MP is going to have to stump up most of the capital going forwards; or perhaps there are still plenty of people lining up to play something with worse odds that Satoshi Dice.
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April 29, 2013, 02:39:11 AM
 #91

You do realise MPOE bond isn't dollar denominated?

You're right that there is a lot of uncertainty here. For example, I thought they were invested into spreads on the price of bitcoins -- but it looks like I was wrong?

Anyways yeah, and S.DICE isn't the hottest investment these days either. Full disclosure, I am invested in both MPOE and S.DICE -- but not the bonds Smiley
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April 29, 2013, 07:25:24 AM
 #92

Usagi, if you have another wild theory about ART, please take it where it belongs (garbage can) and stop thread crapping.

BTW, usagi is not only investing blindly (he pissed away over 7000 btc of investors money in GLBSE)  but he ha no idea wtf "company value" means. Smiley 
Or more precisely, concepts "like currency" risk are completely alien to our beloved Japanese princess Oliver... oops.. usagi.

LOL

While reading what I wrote, use the most friendliest and relaxing voice in your head.
BTW, Things in BTC bubble universes are getting ugly....
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April 29, 2013, 09:33:48 AM
 #93

If you invest money into something that is tied to US dollars and BTC rises in value, you will lose money priced in BTC. The same thing happenes whether or not you purchase a kiln in LTC (yes, ART on LTC-GLOBAL), an LTC bond denominated in BTC, mining hardware or mining bonds (i.e. BMF, CPA, GIGAMINING, YABMC etc.) or even the outright purchase of a call on BTC denominated in us dollars. That's why it was not logical to complain when your own company ART lost 99.5% of it's value.

Back in August IIRC, MPOE Bond lost 46%. Just like BMF. And now they lost like 30% and 25% back to back. C'est la vie. I think it's time that investors here face the reality that BTC is not a magical shield against investing into a US dollar denominated asset, and that when you invest in something you no longer hold BTC, but the asset you have invested in. So when people say that they lost money in something like MPOE Bond that isn't really true. They didn't gain or lose any MPOE Bonds. But the MPOE Bonds themselves are not worth as much as before. That's just a fact. And when you get served your .18 BTC on the dollar, you should say to yourself "Hey, that's worth $23 now, twice as much as I invested!". Not "Shit I just lost 80% of my money". One of these feelings is logical -- one is not.

What happened here was not special. It was predictable. I myself sold out of CoinBr.MPBPT-O back in March because I saw it coming. I sold out at about 0.102 (at a profit). And, as much as I would love to say "ha ha" to MPOE-PR, the fact here is that this is not their "fault".

What happened is simple and easily explained. As the price rose, MPOE Bond wrote/sold and had executed more and more calls at a loss. Lesson learned: Do not invest in MPOE Bond if the price is expected to move in only one direction throughout the month. OTOH stable prices or volatile prices in a trading channel will likely be more profitable.
- MPOE bond isn't USD denominated.
- in April the BTC/USD price didn't go in one direction only - still huge loss
- the bot is incompetent ... and the fact that when we've seen March results there was no way out for April investment makes this second loss painfull but expected
- question is if the bot's incompetence isn't intended ... and how much MP made on this
- I don't expect anyone covering these bonds which can simply be made to loose again
- at least I won't offer a single satoshi to cover this unless I'm reimbursed for these losses which I can't imagine
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April 29, 2013, 10:32:53 AM
 #94

This is cold hard reality, that anything that purports to provide cover to btc/usd derivatives gets a loss occasionally btc-wise (otherwise it is a scam). Bitcoinica/bitfinex/icbit users get force liquidated, too, often much more than this 23% loss. I really did not expect this to go so badly, but anyway decided to split my investment again approx. 60% to bonds and 40% to call options, and went out unscathed. So I can confidently say it's not Mircea who profited from this.

It would be possible to change MPBPT so that it too tries to hedge using options, but it's really hard to come with solid strategy, that 60/40 one can fail spectacularly when price is stable.

CoinBr.com: First online MPEx brokerage launched beta! Easy to use interface and reasonable fees. Charts for MPEx stocks: live.coinbr.com * My Blog *
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April 29, 2013, 01:18:12 PM
 #95

This is cold hard reality, that anything that purports to provide cover to btc/usd derivatives gets a loss occasionally btc-wise (otherwise it is a scam). Bitcoinica/bitfinex/icbit users get force liquidated, too, often much more than this 23% loss. I really did not expect this to go so badly, but anyway decided to split my investment again approx. 60% to bonds and 40% to call options, and went out unscathed. So I can confidently say it's not Mircea who profited from this.

It would be possible to change MPBPT so that it too tries to hedge using options, but it's really hard to come with solid strategy, that 60/40 one can fail spectacularly when price is stable.

xkrikl, good questions btw...

Rini17, why do you keep calling this BS a "bond"?

Bond is a loan - loans are usually paid back with interest. If borrower (Popescu) loses money, it's not lenders (Your) problem per se, loan has to be paid back regardless of his losses.

You guys are giving your money to a spammer from Romania, who has zero! real life experience with options trading. To make it even more absurd, your money is gambled away by a software/script aka bot, written by that same same guy with no RL experience.  Huh
Did you expect this magical bot to be smarter than buyers of those constantly underpriced options of his?

While reading what I wrote, use the most friendliest and relaxing voice in your head.
BTW, Things in BTC bubble universes are getting ugly....
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