Bitcoin Foundation: Where on Earth Did all the Money Go?

[Gyrsur]

^^he is a troll. don't waste your time.

[BruceFenton]

Franks attemps to try to provide some kind of obscure side support is hilarious

he is part of this scam, no knowledgeable Bitcoin supporter in their right mind

would support continuation of the company under the same name.

Let's not get over-dramatic.  1) there is no 'scam'



2)   I'm not that smart, so happy to discount myself as a "knowledgeable Bitcoin supporter"

But how about Vinny Lingham, Bobby Lee, Micky Malta, Elizabeth Ploshay, Michael Perklin etc.

Do you consider them knowledgeable supporters?

How about the CEOs of Tally Capital, BitPay, Circle, ItBit, Chain, ChangeTip, ButFury and the many others who have recently pledged support?   Also not knowledgable?

Believe it or not many people who don't read BitcoinTalk or Reddit are not even really aware of problems with the name.

But I get it--   For some the sins of the past leaders can never be erased by the new leaders.

A thought:  what if a new name and new organization was created and the Bitcoin Foundation bylaws were scrapped but the 503c6 status, Twitter, members and volunteers rolled in -- keeping the name and website for those members / donors who were told the logo would be included etc.

Hypothetically :   Would that satisfy you or most critics?

[rizzlarolla]

rizz

On a personal level thats fine,
But as BF chair, or whatever, I would like to see your default position as - wanting an audit for transparency-
Even if you still add, (due to lack of finance) "provided someone can lead it and do the work involved and/ or support the costs of one."

Frankie

do you have some positive idea's about something that helps the future, while simultaneously looking at the past aswell

tomothy

With regards to the audit, people will always bitch and moan about an audit not having taken place which leaves a specter of uncertainty shrouding TBF. It's stupid. It's fairly evident to see that the money's gone but that won't be an acceptable answer to contrarians. I don't know if you could put out a request or something similar for audit services but it could address the underlying cost of an audit. I'm not sure if that is something a company might want to do on behalf of TBF to then deduct as some sort of a tax break. Something similar could apply to ongoing legal fees/advice. That way you could satisfy the naysayers without throwing good money after bad... literally lol...

Makingsure

HOW MUCH DOES TBF HAVE IN LIABILITIES?
HOW DO THEY OWE STILL "UNOFFICIALLY" FOR WHAT?

Same thing again?

Bruce

I won't stand in the way of anyone who wants to do one.  I personally would rather focus on things more directly beneficial to Bitcoin

Bruce

I'd encourage people to look at the mission and current team.

Do you see, he cant/wont accept that very first basic, albeit ridiculous waste of time, principle?

[BruceFenton]

I think it somewhat unfortunate Bruce started this thread as "Where on earth did all the money go?" ...
Then expect not to get a (negative) reaction on that subject.
Bruces answer to that question? Ridiculously wasteful and reckless spending, (and other things) forget it now, move on. (open to interpretation of course)

Also,Bruces engagement with some posters seemed completely unstructured. He seemed easily drawn into pointless repetative reactionary posting.
(trying not to take sides here, but what did he expect to happen?)

So, to help facilitate moving forward, Bruce needs to structure his debating technique maybe?

I understand your point.

I chose the sensational headline and wording of "ridiculous waste and spending" in an effort to go overboard in stating that I don't support the decisions of the past that I had no involvement with.   I'm not saying to ignore it.   I'm putting it right out in the open for all to see and saying: look, this sucked, bad decisions, bad luck etc.

And with that, yes, I am saying to move on.  I still haven't heard a compelling case about how lots of time, effort and money dwelling on these errors helps Bitcoin.  I volunteered to help Bitcoin not chase skeletons.

I want to be be able to come on this board in the future and say "look at the positive things this org has done" -- if I ask a member to join or renew and they ask what the orgs time or focus is I want to point to something more useful than "we dug around the crappy past and confirmed that it was definitely indeed crappy"

As for debate, yep, I get sucked into sidetracks...side effect of attempting to answer all comments in a fair way - benefits and drawbacks of each.

[BruceFenton]

arg this is the problem with you, you continue to beat around the bush, wont str8 answer anything, i will never again support TBF, mainly cause of you now, so ty.
HOW MUCH DOES TBF HAVE IN LIABILITIES?
HOW DO THEY OWE STILL "UNOFFICIALLY"
FOR WHAT?
cause to me it may be cheaper to wipe this thing i feel once the truth comes out an audit will show around 3-10 million of liabilities no doubt.

total scam, and honestly the non proffit status is just too tempting in btc, i mean cmon bitcoin plus non-profit dont really go together do they? whoever runs the TBF will always use it for personal gain plain and simple  

What on earth are you talking about?

The Bitcoin Foundation doesn't owe anyone anything officially or unofficially with the exception of very minor ongoing expenses like web hosting which is paid monthly and is up to date....maybe $200 and is not and has not been overdue.

Where in the world would you get the idea that the foundation owes anything close to those high numbers?  Who would it be owed to?

On the other hand the foundation IS OWED money by others: a couple corporate event sponsors who never paid and an $18,000 fee sharing bill owed by former ED Peter Vessenses

[rizzlarolla]

Bruce

I want to be be able to come on this board in the future and say "look at the positive things this org has done"

And so do I, and so does franky, but...

Bruce

I still haven't heard a compelling case about how lots of time, effort and money dwelling on these errors helps Bitcoin.

Principle is a funny thing. you either get it or you dont.

Bruce

I volunteered to help Bitcoin not chase skeletons.

rizz

Even if you still add, (due to lack of finance) "provided someone can lead it and do the work involved and/ or support the costs of one."

*added * (Add time on that if you want,  (due to lack of finance and time) same thing as "provided someone can lead it and do the work involved")

[bargainbin]

...
Makingsure

HOW MUCH DOES TBF HAVE IN LIABILITIES?
HOW DO THEY OWE STILL "UNOFFICIALLY" FOR WHAT?

...

Why is this difficult to address?

[BruceFenton]

By 'volunteers,' you mean 'send us money so we could spend it on things that are good for bitcoin'?

When you have your hand out, asking people to donate money which you'll control, the distinction between 'volunteer' and 'd00d who could put his dog on the payroll' becomes pretty fuzzy

So what would be left -- the unnamed, unspecified debts & yourself?

No.  By volunteers I mean people like me, Perklin, Bobby Lee, Atty Marco Santori, Gavin Andresen, all other board members, Education Committee a Chair Colin Gallagher, the people who manned the door at DevCore and others who work for free, without pay on projects at the foundation which they believe help Bitcoin.

That's what I mean by volunteers.

I don't really have my hand out -- have not done fundraising since I volunteered.  But yes, will ask and hope that new and past supporters have memberships.

I personally donated $10,000 of my own money to the foundation last week.

All organizations and all non-profits ultimately have someone who is able to sign checks and make spending decisions.

I completely stand by every spending decision I've been involved with and have been transparent about them.

If they trust me and my business track record they can, if not and they think I'd hire my dog as your example then they should not donate.

I ask no one to do something I would not do.

[BruceFenton]

...
Makingsure

HOW MUCH DOES TBF HAVE IN LIABILITIES?
HOW DO THEY OWE STILL "UNOFFICIALLY" FOR WHAT?

...

Why is this difficult to address?

Answered it above.

Not sure where this idea came from.  Foundation doesn't owe anyone anything other than very minor ongoing expenses like web hosting in the $200 range which are all and have been up to date and paid.

[rizzlarolla]

Audit?

Franky, do you want to move on without an audit? (think you said "hand in hand")

Who's not getting it here?

[bargainbin]

...
Makingsure

HOW MUCH DOES TBF HAVE IN LIABILITIES?
HOW DO THEY OWE STILL "UNOFFICIALLY" FOR WHAT?

...

Why is this difficult to address?

Answered it above.

Not sure where this idea came from.  Foundation doesn't owe anyone anything other than very minor ongoing expenses like web hosting in the $200 range which are all and have been up to date and paid.

So no debts?
And the plus side of the ledger, assets? (in USD or BTC)

[BruceFenton]

Bruce

I want to be be able to come on this board in the future and say "look at the positive things this org has done"

And so do I, and so does franky, but...

Bruce

I still haven't heard a compelling case about how lots of time, effort and money dwelling on these errors helps Bitcoin.

Principle is a funny thing. you either get it or you dont.

Bruce

I volunteered to help Bitcoin not chase skeletons.

rizz

Even if you still add, (due to lack of finance) "provided someone can lead it and do the work involved and/ or support the costs of one."

The thing is with this:  do you realize you are asking me to take my own personal free time away from my job, work and family to pursue something that I don't believe in?

Why would that be on me any more than it is on you?

I didn't create the foundation, I wasn't involved in it during the early days like so many on this thread.

I ad absolutely nothing to do with it until earlier this year....after the problems.

It's no more mine than yours.

I have a limited amount of spare time -- I'm willing to use that time, my knowledge, connections and any abilities I have to do things which I personally think help Bitcoin:  organize conferences etc.  

I'm a volunteer.  This is what I volunteered to do and it takes tons of time.

I think it would make a lot more sense to expect me to do this if I 1) was paid or 2) had anything whatsoever to do with these issues.

For me this feels like showing up at soup kitchen:

"Hi, I'm Bruce, I want to volunteer to feed the homeless people."

"Screw you, the guy who fed the homeless people three people before you who you never met wasted the money on donuts.  We already know he wasted the money.  Forget the food, get down in the basement and go through the file cabinet and audit for more details."

[BruceFenton]

Audit?

Franky, do you want to move on without an audit? (think you said "hand in hand")

Who's not getting it here?

Audits are mainly to 1) find out what happened or 2) change procedures or personnel (like security audit)

What do you think an audit could reveal that we don't already know?

It's not as if the records the old admin left claimed they didn't lose the money or something aa they admitted it and I've uncovered all the details of how it was spent and lost...starting with the base of the original post here.

[BruceFenton]

Answered it above.

Not sure where this idea came from.  Foundation doesn't owe anyone anything other than very minor ongoing expenses like web hosting in the $200 range which are all and have been up to date and paid.

So no debts?
And the plus side of the ledger, assets? (in USD or BTC)

Yes, no debts.

This info has been released regularly ever since I volunteered so it shouldn't be news at all and should be clear.

Current cash and Bitcoin assets are about $30k (I think about 50 of that is BTC) with another $10k pledged by Pierce.   Foundation has recievables of $30k or so from Vessenses and others but has not been able to collect.

In 2014 assets went from $4.5 million to $300k -- when I volunteered in April 2015 there was $70k left and several outstanding debts (I'm guessing $20k-30k) which needed to be paid.

[Gyrsur]

Answered it above.

Not sure where this idea came from.  Foundation doesn't owe anyone anything other than very minor ongoing expenses like web hosting in the $200 range which are all and have been up to date and paid.

So no debts?
And the plus side of the ledger, assets? (in USD or BTC)

Yes, no debts.

This info has been released regularly ever since I volunteered so it shouldn't be news at all and should be clear.

Current cash and Bitcoin assets are about $30k (I think about 50 of that is BTC) with another $10k pledged by Pierce.   Foundation has recievables of $30k or so from Vessenses and others but has not been able to collect.

In 2014 assets went from $4.5 million to $300k -- when I volunteered in April 2015 there was $70k left and several outstanding debts (I'm guessing $20k-30k) which needed to be paid.

yes, TBF is done. your words above.

[bargainbin]

...
Yes, no debts.

This info has been released regularly ever since I volunteered so it shouldn't be news at all and should be clear.

Current cash and Bitcoin assets are about $30k (I think about 50 of that is BTC) with another $10k pledged by Pierce.   Foundation has recievables of $30k or so from Vessenses and others but has not been able to collect.

In 2014 assets went from $4.5 million to $300k -- when I volunteered in April 2015 there was $70k left and several outstanding debts (I'm guessing $20k-30k) which needed to be paid.

Thanks, heading in the right direction.

Current monthly expenses? Would probably help if you had the actual figures handy [perhaps posted?] -- wording like 'I'm guessing' and 'about' doesn't inspire confidence.

[tomothy]

Audit?

Franky, do you want to move on without an audit? (think you said "hand in hand")

Who's not getting it here?

Audits are mainly to 1) find out what happened or 2) change procedures or personnel (like security audit)

What do you think an audit could reveal that we don't already know?

It's not as if the records the old admin left claimed they didn't lose the money or something aa they admitted it and I've uncovered all the details of how it was spent and lost...starting with the base of the original post here.

So, I recognize that you think an audit is a waste of what remains of TBF's meager resources. However, I believe, as a non-for-profit, you have an obligation to conduct a yearly audit. The question therein lies, has one taken place or is one planned for taking place in 2015/2016?

You have certain fiduciary duties as a member of the Board which you have an obligation to uphold. Loyalty/Care, etc., etc., etc. It may come as some surprise, but TBTF/TehLaw, don't really like bitcoin and bitcoin organizations that have dirty hands make great exampes as showpieces mounted hanging on walls over fireplaces. So although you might not want to conduct an audit, it would appear, as you operate as a non-for-profit, in New York, that you have to... (This assumes your domiciled in NY and I think that is the case but I'm too tired to double check right now.)

http://charitiesnys.com/pdfs/Charities_Internal_Controls.pdf

http://www.nyc.gov/html/nonprofit/downloads/pdf/Internal%20Controls%20and%20Financial%20Accountability%20for%20Not-for-Profit%20Board%20OAG.pdf

https://www.bdo.com/getattachment/546e370e-3df7-489d-b0c0-5985a6cc58cf/attachment.aspx


http://www.charitiesnys.com/pdfs/CHAR500_2013_June2014.pdf

Did you take in more than $25k in donations? Yes = Audit. No = Exempt...

I'm not a director, so I don't have any personal liability at stake, but honestly this is serious business and significant resources in play. If these are outstanding issues, this stuff has to get fixed in order to take TBF seriously.

* http://www.pbpatl.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/NFPGuide_2012.pdf -

http://www.charitiesnys.com/pdfs/Annual%20Filing%20Requirements.pdf

http://www.charitiesnys.com/pdfs/char500i.pdf

Thank you for your time and taking this information into consideration if you were previously unaware of the duties and responsibilities associated with the operation of a relatively large non-for-profit entity.

[tomothy]

Answered it above.

Not sure where this idea came from.  Foundation doesn't owe anyone anything other than very minor ongoing expenses like web hosting in the $200 range which are all and have been up to date and paid.

So no debts?
And the plus side of the ledger, assets? (in USD or BTC)

Yes, no debts.

This info has been released regularly ever since I volunteered so it shouldn't be news at all and should be clear.

Current cash and Bitcoin assets are about $30k (I think about 50 of that is BTC) with another $10k pledged by Pierce.   Foundation has recievables of $30k or so from Vessenses and others but has not been able to collect.

In 2014 assets went from $4.5 million to $300k -- when I volunteered in April 2015 there was $70k left and several outstanding debts (I'm guessing $20k-30k) which needed to be paid.

Holy Crap. so ~$30k remains. Wow. Well then, that certainly restricts the ability to really do much if anything. I'd be contemplating clawback and suing prior leadership for gross mismanagement. That is sad. :/ What's projected 3-6mos cashflow donations look like? Can you start selling tshirts or something? Branding with various companies? Seriously, you need donors but I know you recognize that issue. It's certainly a tough one. :/

[BruceFenton]

It's a part of the duties you volunteered to preform. Can't pick and chose.


That's simply false. You're heading BTF, no one else.

Not quite like that tho. If you came here with "Hi, I'm Bruce, I'm starting a Bitcoin Foundation," the analogy would be apt.

I view my responsibilities I volunteered for as mainly to further the mission of the foundation and execute plans related to it. 

I also am responsible to communicate, justify any spending or decisions I'm involved with and comply with all laws governing the activities of the foundation. 

For the past before I was there - there is certainly no legal requirement that I spend my own money or volunteer my time to chase past decisions beyond what I feel is useful. 

You still haven't answered what you think a more details audit could reveal.  I'm pretty confident that the story the previous admin gave is pretty much what happened - there are receipts, transactions and two accountants / bookkeeper who have reviewed them.  It's not a good story, pretty story or one that shows good decisions but I don't see any evidence that it's a lie and can't justify spending my money or the money of others chasing something that I think will only confirm what we already know. 

If there is demand for this then someone will support it -- and I will support them and open all records to them -- but as far as me being one and only the guy holding the bag to track down stuff we already know from people I've never even met if no one else cares to support it : not what I volunteered for. 

[BruceFenton]

??

Text didn't take.  See edit