[PRE-ANNOUNCE] Permacoin Implementation on Top of Scorex - Open Testing

[kushti]

Few brightest minds in cryptography proposed how data archiving could be incentivized and used instead of Proof-of-Work via Proof-of-Retrievability   http://www.coindesk.com/cryptocurrency-mining-help-archive-societys-important-data/ (academic paper: http://cs.umd.edu/~amiller/permacoin.pdf ). Unfortunately, no open-sourced implementations of the Permacoin proposal are known to the moment.

To overcome this, Scorex devs(in partnership with IOHK) have implemented Permacoin implementation in the form of Scorex module. We have a plan to launch a public testnet in coming days.

Let's overcome IPOs fever and hack around blockchain for the sake of progress with Scorex! Attacks on consensus protocol are welcome.

Please join us by running nodes, attacking the consensus protocol, contributing to the code.

Maillist to be launched in next few days.

Github: https://github.com/ConsensusResearch/Scorex-Lagonaki



Acknowledgement: we would like to thank IOHK (new project of Charles Hoskinson et al, http://iohk.io/) for sponsorship, Andrew Miller for answering questions on Permacoin.

[allwelder]

Cong.
Cann't wait to see it for public test.

[TPTB_need_war]

Few brightest minds in cryptography proposed how data archiving could be incentivized and used instead of Proof-of-Work via Proof-of-Retrievability   http://www.coindesk.com/cryptocurrency-mining-help-archive-societys-important-data/ (academic paper: http://cs.umd.edu/~amiller/permacoin.pdf ).

Warning I as AnonyMint proposed this in mid-2013 and referred to it as Proof-of-Storage. I also discovered it was fundementally flawed. If you continue, you will be wasting your time. Eventually I will come back and explain to you and Andrew Miller PhD why this is flawed.

[Come-from-Beyond]

Acknowledgement: we would like to thank IOHK (new project of Charles Hoskinson et al, http://iohk.io/) for sponsorship, Andrew Miller for answering questions on Permacoin.

Is it that Andrew Miller who claimed that PoS is impossible because there is nothing at stake?

[kushti]

Warning I as AnonyMint proposed this in mid-2013 and referred to it as Proof-of-Storage. I also discovered it was fundementally flawed. If you continue, you will be wasting your time. Eventually I will come back and explain to you and Andrew Miller PhD why this is flawed.

Details are definitely needed here. I know about Proofs-of-Space and Proofs of Space-Time( http://eprint.iacr.org/2016/035.pdf ), Miller's Proof-of-Retrievability(Permacoin), and White's Proof-of-Storage in Qeditas. What's Anonymint's proposal about?

We found some possible drawbacks and attack vectors in Permacoin, but no fundamental flaws.

Acknowledgement: we would like to thank IOHK (new project of Charles Hoskinson et al, http://iohk.io/) for sponsorship, Andrew Miller for answering questions on Permacoin.

Is it that Andrew Miller who claimed that PoS is impossible because there is nothing at stake?

No, the claim was from Andrew Poelstra.

[Come-from-Beyond]

No, the claim was from Andrew Poelstra.

But it's the same guy who is mentioned in https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1oi7su/criticisms_of_proofofstake/ccsd6rm, right?

[kushti]

But it's the same guy who is mentioned in https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1oi7su/criticisms_of_proofofstake/ccsd6rm, right?

Probably yes, but I dunno a story. Poelstra is author of https://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/pos.pdf. Lets' stop offtopic with that.

[Come-from-Beyond]

Lets' stop offtopic with that.

It's not an off-topic. The fact that one of Bitcoin zealots is involved in Permacoin is a red flag to a lot of open-minded people on this forum. But yeah, let's stop here.

[charleshoskinson]

Thanks for all the hard work getting this written.

[kushti]

Article in ForkLog on Permacoin http://forklog.net/blockchain-based-permacoin-system-may-replace-torrents/ (RUS: http://forklog.com/blokchejn-sistema-permacoin-mozhet-stat-alternativoj-torrentam/ )

[TPTB_need_war]

Warning I as AnonyMint proposed this in mid-2013 and referred to it as Proof-of-Storage. I also discovered it was fundementally flawed. If you continue, you will be wasting your time. Eventually I will come back and explain to you and Andrew Miller PhD why this is flawed.

Details are definitely needed here. I know about Proofs-of-Space and Proofs of Space-Time( http://eprint.iacr.org/2016/035.pdf ), Miller's Proof-of-Retrievability(Permacoin), and White's Proof-of-Storage in Qeditas. What's Anonymint's proposal about?

We found some possible drawbacks and attack vectors in Permacoin, but no fundamental flaws.

In my original analysis in 2013, I went down the same rat hole of flaws as in section "4.2 Local-POR Lottery" of the white paper. They assume so many things (including for example that Amazon bandwidth is 10 - 100X more expensive than dedicated host), and when you work through all the analysis, then the scheme does not work to prevent centralization of the mining, and thus the permissionless (uncensored) and robustness/durability of file storage attribute will not be sustained.

However, revisiting this has given me a new idea that I want to think about regarding using hard-disk storage space in a PoW hash. Hmmm.

P.S. I also read these:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=186601.0 (this was an offshoot I think of my idea which was in my March 2013 thread)
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=555375.msg6536798#msg6536798

[kushti]

Testnet is ready to be public. And I've finished article with implementation details, possible threats and attack vectors etc: https://github.com/ScorexProject/Scorex-Lagonaki/wiki/Permacoin-Implementation

[AtomSea]

Let us know how we can help.
Very fascinating project.
Deserves attention and resources.

[kushti]

Let us know how we can help.
Very fascinating project.
Deserves attention and resources.

Thanks! 

Good news: we're having public testnet. The seed node API is public as well: http://23.94.190.226:9081/ . I am going to fill empty wiki pages and then I'll make a public announce. But it is possible and welcomed to connect to the network already. Its lifespan is not defined though.

[ICOcountdown.com]

How will people get the coins just through mining? I want to add this to http://icocountdown.com so let me know if there will be a crowdsale.

[Sam123]

Any news on the project this week?

[yelllowsin]

kushti, Is the code of Permacoin the same of Waves? In Sashas's presentation at Moscow he linked to Permacoin Github repository.

[charleshoskinson]

kushti, Is the code of Permacoin the same of Waves? In Sashas's presentation at Moscow he linked to Permacoin Github repository.

No, Scorex is not the same as Waves. IOHK and Scorex have no relationship with Waves. The teams are not collaborating: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1434851.0

[rayban2]

Hey everyone, I'm sorry for bumping an old topic, but is the Permacoin ideia dead?

[silverkamote]

* Major coins forks are trying to make IPO immediately, often having just one or two pretty controversial features introduced. **Scorex is intentionally not production-ready**, so please participate in any non-commercial experiments built on top of it, but don't buy tokens unless you are 100+% sure what are you doing.