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Author Topic: Wondering out loud: Which should Chinese miners support - Core, Classic or another?  (Read 37765 times)
sturle
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January 30, 2016, 01:26:19 PM
 #281

Classic vaporware - There is no alternative qualified team other than Core.
Incorrect.
Not vaporware, code is available, source:
https://twitter.com/jgarzik/status/693136607659069441

Also there are already 48 nodes running, source:
http://xtnodes.com/
Interesting.  Looks like "Classic" is the least popular of the various fork-altcoins.  Not very surprising.

Sjå https://bitmynt.no for veksling av bitcoin mot norske kroner.  Trygt, billig, raskt og enkelt sidan 2010.
I buy with EUR and other currencies at a fair market price when you want to sell.  See http://bitmynt.no/eurprice.pl
Warning: "Bitcoin" XT, Classic, Unlimited and the likes are scams. Don't use them, and don't listen to their shills.
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January 30, 2016, 01:38:19 PM
 #282

Total BIP 101 blocks:  0 / 1000             Total Classic blocks:  0 / 1000


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January 30, 2016, 01:38:25 PM
 #283

Classic vaporware - There is no alternative qualified team other than Core.
Incorrect.
Not vaporware, code is available, source:
https://twitter.com/jgarzik/status/693136607659069441

Also there are already 48 nodes running, source:
http://xtnodes.com/
Interesting.  Looks like "Classic" is the least popular of the various fork-altcoins.  Not very surprising.

Funny how them shameless noobs just linked a sourcecode from some random twatter account..

So legit.
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January 30, 2016, 01:39:02 PM
 #284

The 2nd half of the Scaling Bitcoin conference was China, where many photos were taken of the world's biggest miners sharing a stage.  So I don't see how Chinese Bitcoiners have "little say in the matter" of scaling.

But as one of the Chinese panelists said at the event, they felt like merely an audience who are asked to sit there to choose between options given to them.

Please explain the perceived benefit of 2MB over 1MB blocks at this time.  Why are they, right now, superior in a cost vs. benefit analysis?
The perceive benefit varies. For some, it is that Bitcoin will continue to function as a payment network for individual users rather than a settlement network where only large transactions can be processed cost-efficiently. It is a modest change. It introduces less complexity. It gives SigWit more time.
Also, some believe that it is a test of Core team's willingness to listen to them. If they don't make what appears to be a small compromise, the Chinese fear that they will unlikely to do so in the future.

Thanks for the informative response.

It is helpful to clarify and confirm that some of the agitation for 2MB is merely for the sake of "a test of Core team's willingness to listen" (wherein "listen" actually means "obey").

A contentious hard fork is not a "a small compromise" because it puts the entire system at risk of catastrophic consensus failure (and will almost certainly crash the price).

The 'you have to give me something because otherwise you're uncompromising and I will pout' negotiation tactic will not work on Bitcoin engineering decisions.

Our Honey Badger really does not care about hurt feelings from pushy token-demanding nobodies (of any nationality).

If Honey Badger starts negotiating and compromising simply to appease emotionally needy peoples' pleas for a pat on the head, the Bitcoin experiment ends in failure.

I hope this helps you understand why a 2MB increase is not as easy as throwing a bone to a barking dog.


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January 30, 2016, 01:47:13 PM
 #285

At the peak of it's popularity, in October, 0.8% of miners voted for BIP 101

As of today, 0% of miners vote for BIP 101

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January 30, 2016, 01:55:17 PM
 #286

Step 1) 750/1000 blocks mined indicating support
Step 2) 28 days pass
Step 3) At some point a miner creates a >1.0 MB block
Step 4) Either miners build off this larger block or reject it, continuing on the 1MB chain
Coinbase/BitPay/Bitfinex/etc have all indicated whether or not they accept larger blocks
Step 5) Miners stop mining on whichever chain ends up shortest. Doing anything else loses them piles of short term money.
Step 6) end of story...anyone on the wrong side of the fork will stop seeing new blocks

Any miner here want to commit to mining on the minority chain?


So how do you intend to see through the fog of war, and discern which chain is truly the minority?

Did you miss the XT debacle, in which we destroyed their fragile command and control structures, while jamming their signals with false version flags?

Did you miss the part where spoofed nodes were being prepared to lead XT into the death trap of a premature fork?

Do you need to be retaught the same lesson every year, when the latest shiny new potential hard fork declares its noble intention to push aside all contention and declare itself The New Bitcoin?

Aren't you assuming the cypherpunks who built and maintain the systems you presume to attack won't wreck Classic in self-defense?


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Monero
"The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine
whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy." 
David Chaum 1996
"Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect."  Adam Back 2014
Buy and sell XMR near you
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January 30, 2016, 02:00:00 PM
 #287

Overall, there seems to be a sense of helplessness. Some reflected on why the Chinese had so little say in the matter and some urge that the Chinese should form their own core development team and create their own fork.

Hi Eric,

What do you think about the Classic implementation? What does chinese miners think about it?

Many Chinese Bitcoiners - not only miners, but also exchanges and wallet services, originally supported Classic for its support of 2MB block size, but after meeting Jeff Garzik in Beijing, many backtracked because they didn't believe that the team behind is capable or there is a roadmap.

LMao, poor Jeff.. XD

Maybe those Bitcoiners should be more loyal to the Core team that got us this far, and less eager to betray them on behalf of some poorly-vetted pretenders to the throne.

Or maybe they like backtracking?  I guess it's a good exercise in humility to come crawling back to Core, head hung in shame.


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Monero
"The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine
whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy." 
David Chaum 1996
"Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect."  Adam Back 2014
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January 30, 2016, 02:03:17 PM
Last edit: January 30, 2016, 02:44:12 PM by eric@haobtc
 #288

It is helpful to clarify and confirm that some of the agitation for 2MB is merely for the sake of "a test of Core team's willingness to listen" (wherein "listen" actually means "obey").

A contentious hard fork is not a "a small compromise" because it puts the entire system at risk of catastrophic consensus failure (and will almost certainly crash the price).

The 'you have to give me something because otherwise you're uncompromising and I will pout' negotiation tactic will not work on Bitcoin engineering decisions.

Our Honey Badger really does not care about hurt feelings from pushy token-demanding nobodies (of any nationality).

If Honey Badger starts negotiating and compromising simply to appease emotionally needy peoples' pleas for a pat on the head, the Bitcoin experiment ends in failure.

I hope this helps you understand why a 2MB increase is not as easy as throwing a bone to a barking dog.

I thought that the core devs wanted to listen to "the community"? Now you are telling me that yes, they may condescend themselves but whatever you Chinese may have to say, it is of no consequence and should have zero effect on the outcome because we know better? Excuse my poor English but this strikes me as a bit condescending.
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January 30, 2016, 02:05:14 PM
 #289

Excuse my poor English but this strikes me as a bit condescending.

Eric - I live in China (my Chinese isn't great but my wife is Chinese) - feel free to contact me via PM to discuss anything about this (I am not paid nor associated directly with any of the parties involved in these disputes).

What I do know is how to code raw transactions and write software (I've been a software engineer for nearly 30 years now).

With CIYAM anyone can create 100% generated C++ web applications in literally minutes.

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January 30, 2016, 02:08:49 PM
 #290

It's frightening too see huge miners so poorly informed about the protocol they are working for.

Basically, if you secede onto a fork that is contentious, breaking bitcoin's consensus, you'll loose money. we all loose money (and maybe Bitcoin).

Simple as that.

Umm, no. Only the weaker branch without the economic majority can lose money and even that's fairly hard to do.

Presuming Classic BIP is the one we are talking about:

Step 1) 750/1000 blocks mined indicating support

[ a miracle occurs ]

Step 6) end of story...anyone on the wrong side of the fork will stop seeing new blocks

Any miner here want to commit to mining on the minority chain?


You dont knwo what you are talking about.

It is not about a chain with most VCs backed useless startups, or clueless powerful miners, that shall necessarily be considered VALID.
It is purely ideological in fact, and it is quite likely that bitcoiners would not give a damn about some Coinbase, pardon GoldmanSachsCoin.

The ones that will break consensus will end up bankrupt on their forked shitcoin. Its pretty obvious.

canth obviously understands better than @Dan_Pantera how a contentious hard fork will play out.

I expect canth will easily refute Dan's latest FUD, as seen below.

Quote

Bitcoin Classic: in theory, implementing an immediate 2MB change would immediately alleviate block congestion but would require a hard fork. Hard forking carries with it certain systemic risks:

    Bitcoins received from before the fork can be spent twice, once on both sides of the fork. This creates a high double-spend risk.
    Bitcoins received after the fork are only guaranteed to be spendable on the side of the fork they were received on. This means some
    users will have to lose money to restore Bitcoin to a single chain.

In essence, if a hard fork goes bad, it will likely cause large-scale confusion and make Bitcoin incredibly difficult to use until the situation is resolved. There’s also a very real chance of total system failure if a hard fork’s deployment is not well-coordinated across the entire network
.


Dan Morehead
Chief Executive Officer
@Dan_Pantera

https://medium.com/@PanteraCapital/the-governance-of-anarchists-blockchain-letter-january-2016-798842f468de?source=latest---------1



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"The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine
whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy." 
David Chaum 1996
"Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect."  Adam Back 2014
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January 30, 2016, 02:11:27 PM
 #291

It is helpful to clarify and confirm that some of the agitation for 2MB is merely for the sake of "a test of Core team's willingness to listen" (wherein "listen" actually means "obey").

A contentious hard fork is not a "a small compromise" because it puts the entire system at risk of catastrophic consensus failure (and will almost certainly crash the price).

The 'you have to give me something because otherwise you're uncompromising and I will pout' negotiation tactic will not work on Bitcoin engineering decisions.

Our Honey Badger really does not care about hurt feelings from pushy token-demanding nobodies (of any nationality).

If Honey Badger starts negotiating and compromising simply to appease emotionally needy peoples' pleas for a pat on the head, the Bitcoin experiment ends in failure.

I hope this helps you understand why a 2MB increase is not as easy as throwing a bone to a barking dog.

I thought that the core devs wanted to listen to "the community"? Now you are telling me that yes, they may condensed themselves but whatever you Chinese may have to say, it is of no consequence and should have zero effect on the outcome because we know better? Excuse my poor English but this strikes me as a bit condescending.

FYI, Eric, iCEBREAKER is not a core dev.

https://tlsnotary.org/ Fraud proofing decentralized fiat-Bitcoin trading.
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January 30, 2016, 02:57:52 PM
 #292

It is helpful to clarify and confirm that some of the agitation for 2MB is merely for the sake of "a test of Core team's willingness to listen" (wherein "listen" actually means "obey").

A contentious hard fork is not a "a small compromise" because it puts the entire system at risk of catastrophic consensus failure (and will almost certainly crash the price).

The 'you have to give me something because otherwise you're uncompromising and I will pout' negotiation tactic will not work on Bitcoin engineering decisions.

Our Honey Badger really does not care about hurt feelings from pushy token-demanding nobodies (of any nationality).

If Honey Badger starts negotiating and compromising simply to appease emotionally needy peoples' pleas for a pat on the head, the Bitcoin experiment ends in failure.

I hope this helps you understand why a 2MB increase is not as easy as throwing a bone to a barking dog.

I thought that the core devs wanted to listen to "the community"? Now you are telling me that yes, they may condensed themselves but whatever you Chinese may have to say, it is of no consequence and should have zero effect on the outcome because we know better? Excuse my poor English but this strikes me as a bit condescending.

FYI, Eric, iCEBREAKER is not a core dev.

I see.

Actually, I think more people in China are coming to realise that they may have nobody to blame but themselves.  And my company, HaoBTC, has been contemplating sponsoring a core developer recently.
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January 30, 2016, 02:59:37 PM
 #293

It is helpful to clarify and confirm that some of the agitation for 2MB is merely for the sake of "a test of Core team's willingness to listen" (wherein "listen" actually means "obey").

A contentious hard fork is not a "a small compromise" because it puts the entire system at risk of catastrophic consensus failure (and will almost certainly crash the price).

The 'you have to give me something because otherwise you're uncompromising and I will pout' negotiation tactic will not work on Bitcoin engineering decisions.

Our Honey Badger really does not care about hurt feelings from pushy token-demanding nobodies (of any nationality).

If Honey Badger starts negotiating and compromising simply to appease emotionally needy peoples' pleas for a pat on the head, the Bitcoin experiment ends in failure.

I hope this helps you understand why a 2MB increase is not as easy as throwing a bone to a barking dog.

I thought that the core devs wanted to listen to "the community"? Now you are telling me that yes, they may condensed themselves but whatever you Chinese may have to say, it is of no consequence and should have zero effect on the outcome because we know better? Excuse my poor English but this strikes me as a bit condescending.

FYI, Eric, iCEBREAKER is not a core dev.

I see.

Actually, I think more people in China are coming to realise that they may have nobody to blame but themselves.  And my company, HaoBTC, has been contemplating sponsoring a core developer recently.

What do you mean?

Forgive my petulance and oft-times, I fear, ill-founded criticisms, and forgive me that I have, by this time, made your eyes and head ache with my long letter. But I cannot forgo hastily the pleasure and pride of thus conversing with you.
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January 30, 2016, 03:04:57 PM
 #294

It is helpful to clarify and confirm that some of the agitation for 2MB is merely for the sake of "a test of Core team's willingness to listen" (wherein "listen" actually means "obey").

A contentious hard fork is not a "a small compromise" because it puts the entire system at risk of catastrophic consensus failure (and will almost certainly crash the price).

The 'you have to give me something because otherwise you're uncompromising and I will pout' negotiation tactic will not work on Bitcoin engineering decisions.

Our Honey Badger really does not care about hurt feelings from pushy token-demanding nobodies (of any nationality).

If Honey Badger starts negotiating and compromising simply to appease emotionally needy peoples' pleas for a pat on the head, the Bitcoin experiment ends in failure.

I hope this helps you understand why a 2MB increase is not as easy as throwing a bone to a barking dog.

I thought that the core devs wanted to listen to "the community"? Now you are telling me that yes, they may condensed themselves but whatever you Chinese may have to say, it is of no consequence and should have zero effect on the outcome because we know better? Excuse my poor English but this strikes me as a bit condescending.

In Bitcoin, only the code matters and the protocol is nationality-neutral.  So there is no reason for any particular group to feel sorry for themselves.

Core devs may listen to anyone they want, but have no obligation to obey them or compromise with some token of good will.

Honey Badger only eats the sweetest code he can find.  Right now, the best code is being produced by Core, but everyone else is welcome to try doing a better job.

Honey Badger's nature and purpose is to be condescending; opinions are of no consequence to him.

He does not have to do what Core or miners or anyone else says.  That's why we love him.   Smiley

But if any group of miners or devs or anyone except the socioeconomic majority could tell Honey Badger what to do, he would die instantly.


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Monero
"The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine
whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy." 
David Chaum 1996
"Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect."  Adam Back 2014
Buy and sell XMR near you
P2P Exchange Network
Buy XMR with fiat
Is Dash a scam?
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January 30, 2016, 03:09:30 PM
 #295

It is helpful to clarify and confirm that some of the agitation for 2MB is merely for the sake of "a test of Core team's willingness to listen" (wherein "listen" actually means "obey").

A contentious hard fork is not a "a small compromise" because it puts the entire system at risk of catastrophic consensus failure (and will almost certainly crash the price).

The 'you have to give me something because otherwise you're uncompromising and I will pout' negotiation tactic will not work on Bitcoin engineering decisions.

Our Honey Badger really does not care about hurt feelings from pushy token-demanding nobodies (of any nationality).

If Honey Badger starts negotiating and compromising simply to appease emotionally needy peoples' pleas for a pat on the head, the Bitcoin experiment ends in failure.

I hope this helps you understand why a 2MB increase is not as easy as throwing a bone to a barking dog.

I thought that the core devs wanted to listen to "the community"? Now you are telling me that yes, they may condensed themselves but whatever you Chinese may have to say, it is of no consequence and should have zero effect on the outcome because we know better? Excuse my poor English but this strikes me as a bit condescending.

FYI, Eric, iCEBREAKER is not a core dev.

I see.

Actually, I think more people in China are coming to realise that they may have nobody to blame but themselves.  And my company, HaoBTC, has been contemplating sponsoring a core developer recently.

What do you mean?

Some believe that the Chinese community's interest being underrepresented at the level of core development is much due to the fact that as a whole they have been myopically focusing on making money and not paying enough attention to protocol maintenance. As a result, they have almost no say and are little more than merely audience.
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January 30, 2016, 03:16:28 PM
 #296

Some believe that the Chinese community's interest being underrepresented at the level of core development is much due to the fact that as a whole they have been myopically focusing on making money and not paying enough attention on protocol maintenance. As a result, they have almost no say and are little more than merely audience.

As you know this is unfortunately very true of the Chinese culture - again I do invite you to PM me if you want some help with explaining things to fellow miners (one Chinese is a dragon but many become worms).

With CIYAM anyone can create 100% generated C++ web applications in literally minutes.

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January 30, 2016, 03:18:39 PM
 #297

It is helpful to clarify and confirm that some of the agitation for 2MB is merely for the sake of "a test of Core team's willingness to listen" (wherein "listen" actually means "obey").

A contentious hard fork is not a "a small compromise" because it puts the entire system at risk of catastrophic consensus failure (and will almost certainly crash the price).

The 'you have to give me something because otherwise you're uncompromising and I will pout' negotiation tactic will not work on Bitcoin engineering decisions.

Our Honey Badger really does not care about hurt feelings from pushy token-demanding nobodies (of any nationality).

If Honey Badger starts negotiating and compromising simply to appease emotionally needy peoples' pleas for a pat on the head, the Bitcoin experiment ends in failure.

I hope this helps you understand why a 2MB increase is not as easy as throwing a bone to a barking dog.

I thought that the core devs wanted to listen to "the community"? Now you are telling me that yes, they may condensed themselves but whatever you Chinese may have to say, it is of no consequence and should have zero effect on the outcome because we know better? Excuse my poor English but this strikes me as a bit condescending.

In Bitcoin, only the code matters and the protocol is nationality-neutral.  So there is no reason for any particular group to feel sorry for themselves.

Core devs may listen to anyone they want, but have no obligation to obey them or compromise with some token of good will.

Honey Badger only eats the sweetest code he can find.  Right now, the best code is being produced by Core, but everyone else is welcome to try doing a better job.

Honey Badger's nature and purpose is to be condescending; opinions are of no consequence to him.

He does not have to do what Core or miners or anyone else says.  That's why we love him.   Smiley

But if any group of miners or devs or anyone except the socioeconomic majority could tell Honey Badger what to do, he would die instantly.

I think it is a bit disingenuous to argue that nationalities don't matter as many western bitcoiners, including prominent ones, cite Chin as a factor in their assessment of the success of Bitcoin or lack thereof.
It is almost like to say that on the level of atoms, there is no sexuality or race, therefore the society should heed nothing but laws of physics.
I agree that code itself doesn't recognise nationality, but it is not only the code, but people who are involved with it.
BlindMayorBitcorn
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January 30, 2016, 03:20:58 PM
 #298

Some believe that the Chinese community's interest being underrepresented at the level of core development is much due to the fact that as a whole they have been myopically focusing on making money and not paying enough attention on protocol maintenance. As a result, they have almost no say and are little more than merely audience.

As you know this is unfortunately very true of the Chinese culture - again I do invite you to PM me if you want some help with explaining things to fellow miners (one Chinese is a dragon but many become worms).


I'd say he has a pretty solid handle on things already.

Forgive my petulance and oft-times, I fear, ill-founded criticisms, and forgive me that I have, by this time, made your eyes and head ache with my long letter. But I cannot forgo hastily the pleasure and pride of thus conversing with you.
fatbitcoinfan
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January 30, 2016, 03:22:08 PM
 #299

Actually, I think more people in China are coming to realise that they may have nobody to blame but themselves.

We in the West are coming to the same conclusion.

And my company, HaoBTC, has been contemplating sponsoring a core developer recently.

My bet is that Chinese miners will sponsor Luke-jr so that he can change the PoW to put all the Chinese miners out of business.

It really seems that Chinese miners kowtow to those who show contempt for them, and they show contempt for anybody who listens to them and tries to take their concerns into account.

Do they know that in the West that's considered shameful behavior?
CIYAM
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January 30, 2016, 03:23:11 PM
 #300

Do they know that in the West that's considered shameful behavior?

Do you really think they actually give a "rat's ass" about what westerners think?

(hint - I live in China and no they don't)

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