Sales of accounts and invites to invite-only sites

[shep]

I don't represent gingadaddy, nor am I affiliated with them.  If you believe there is a legal issue with that site I suggest you send them a DMCA takedown notification.  Also I think that you're ignoring your own arguments.  If those sites are illegal, then why is this forum allowing transactions of access codes and credentials for those sites?  If anything you're supporting my argument that sales of access codes and credentials for those sites should not be allowed on this forum.

If these websites are illegal then their contracts are illegal.

You'll still find that access fraud, computer fraud, misuse of access, illegal access, and theft of service apply regardless.  Access occurred without authorization, services were used.

or

Even if these sites are legal, you still need to prove dishonesty.

In both cases bitcointalk.org shouldn't care. You're welcome to send a legal takedown notice to bitcointalk. Follow your own advice.

If the sites are legal dishonesty does not need to be proven.  Access fraud, computer fraud, misuse of access, illegal access, and theft of service can apply regardless if the access codes were obtained through malicious intent or through passive means.  Don't believe it, look up cable theft prosecutions

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[shep]

if a dmca notice is enough for those sites, they should submit a dmca takedown notice to bitcointalk about the invites

I think you missed the point about not having the currency and site associated with illegal activity.  It is illegal to distribute access codes or login credentials for accounts without express permission of the site owner or institution that granted them on provisional access. It doesn't matter if it's a credit card, bank account, stock trading account, amazon, newegg, ebay, torrent, nzb, defense contractor, or any other type of credential that is used for verification and authorization to provide services.  You can run around the issue in circles, but that doesn't make it any less illegal.

[drakahn]

if a dmca notice is enough for those sites, they should submit a dmca takedown notice to bitcointalk about the invites

I think you missed the point about having the currency and site associated with illegal activity.  It is illegal to distribute access codes or login credentials for accounts without express permission of the site owner or institution that granted them on provisional access.  You can run around the issue in circles, but that doesn't make it any less illegal.

And you missed the point that if those sites can ignore the law until they get a notice, so can this site

[shep]

if a dmca notice is enough for those sites, they should submit a dmca takedown notice to bitcointalk about the invites

I think you missed the point about having the currency and site associated with illegal activity.  It is illegal to distribute access codes or login credentials for accounts without express permission of the site owner or institution that granted them on provisional access.  You can run around the issue in circles, but that doesn't make it any less illegal.

And you missed the point that if those sites can ignore the law until they get a notice, so can this site

Not really.  The forum is monitored and the admin and staff are aware of the issue, hence the previous thread on the sale of hacked/compromised and unauthorized sales of invites and account credentials.  The admin and staff created this thread trying to set rules for secondary sales of credentials which they had already been informed are illegal. Safe harbor only applies when not monitoring and you'll still find that forums can face criminal and civil liability for not removing material on their own accord when they are aware of it existing (already informed).

[vampire]

If the sites are legal dishonesty does not need to be proven.  Access fraud, computer fraud, misuse of access, illegal access, and theft of service can apply regardless if the access codes were obtained through malicious intent or through passive means.  Don't believe it, look up cable theft prosecutions

Read the law (not even a law, it's a treaty)

http://conventions.coe.int/Treaty/Commun/QueVoulezVous.asp?NT=185&CM=8&DF=&CL=ENG

Article 2 – Illegal access

Each Party shall adopt such legislative and other measures as may be necessary to establish as criminal offences under its domestic law, when committed intentionally, the access to the whole or any part of a computer system without right. A Party may require that the offence be committed by infringing security measures, with the intent of obtaining computer data or other dishonest intent, or in relation to a computer system that is connected to another computer system.

Article 3 – Illegal interception

Each Party shall adopt such legislative and other measures as may be necessary to establish as criminal offences under its domestic law, when committed intentionally, the interception without right, made by technical means, of non-public transmissions of computer data to, from or within a computer system, including electromagnetic emissions from a computer system carrying such computer data. A Party may require that the offence be committed with dishonest intent, or in relation to a computer system that is connected to another computer system.

I think we're done here until your prove the dishonesty.

[🏰 TradeFortress 🏰]

I think for the good of bitcointalk this thread needs to be locked.

[shep]

If the sites are legal dishonesty does not need to be proven.  Access fraud, computer fraud, misuse of access, illegal access, and theft of service can apply regardless if the access codes were obtained through malicious intent or through passive means.  Don't believe it, look up cable theft prosecutions

Read the law (not even a law, it's a treaty)

http://conventions.coe.int/Treaty/Commun/QueVoulezVous.asp?NT=185&CM=8&DF=&CL=ENG

Article 2 – Illegal access

Each Party shall adopt such legislative and other measures as may be necessary to establish as criminal offences under its domestic law, when committed intentionally, the access to the whole or any part of a computer system without right. A Party may require that the offence be committed by infringing security measures, with the intent of obtaining computer data or other dishonest intent, or in relation to a computer system that is connected to another computer system.

Article 3 – Illegal interception

Each Party shall adopt such legislative and other measures as may be necessary to establish as criminal offences under its domestic law, when committed intentionally, the interception without right, made by technical means, of non-public transmissions of computer data to, from or within a computer system, including electromagnetic emissions from a computer system carrying such computer data. A Party may require that the offence be committed with dishonest intent, or in relation to a computer system that is connected to another computer system.

I think we're done here until your prove the dishonesty.

I read the treaty (which requires nations that ratified and ascended follow these terms) , clearly you didn't. Article VI requires only one qualification be satisfied under Article II - V.   By accessing a system you are connecting one computer system to another (networked activity) which is a defacto qualification.  In addition, users are consuming services (resources and transferring data), which is intent to obtain computer data.
You're running around in circles trying to find a "gotcha" stipulation that can allow illegal transactions to take place on this forum.  You're not serving the site or yourself by continuing to defend illegal and immoral sales.

Article 2 – Illegal access

Each Party shall adopt such legislative and other measures as may be necessary to establish as criminal offences under its domestic law, when committed intentionally, the access to the whole or any part of a computer system without right. A Party may require that the offence be committed by infringing security measures, with the intent of obtaining computer data or other dishonest intent, or in relation to a computer system that is connected to another computer system.

Article 6 – Misuse of devices

1    Each Party shall adopt such legislative and other measures as may be necessary to establish as criminal offences under its domestic law, when committed intentionally and without right:

a     the production, sale, procurement for use, import, distribution or otherwise making available of:

i    a device, including a computer program, designed or adapted primarily for the purpose of committing any of the offences established in accordance with Articles 2 through 5;

ii    a computer password, access code, or similar data by which the whole or any part of a computer system is capable of being accessed,

with intent that it be used for the purpose of committing any of the offences established in Articles 2 through 5; and

b     the possession of an item referred to in paragraphs a.i or ii above, with intent that it be used for the purpose of committing any of the offences established in Articles 2 through 5. A Party may require by law that a number of such items be possessed before criminal liability attaches.

2    This article shall not be interpreted as imposing criminal liability where the production, sale, procurement for use, import, distribution or otherwise making available or possession referred to in paragraph 1 of this article is not for the purpose of committing an offence established in accordance with Articles 2 through 5 of this Convention, such as for the authorised testing or protection of a computer system.

3    Each Party may reserve the right not to apply paragraph 1 of this article, provided that the reservation does not concern the sale, distribution or otherwise making available of the items referred to in paragraph 1 a.ii of this article.

[vampire]

I read the treaty (which requires nations that ratified and ascended follow these terms) , clearly you didn't. Article VI requires that only qualification.   By accessing a system you are connecting one computer system to another (networked activity) which is a defacto qualification.  In addition, users are consuming services (resources and transferring data), which is intent to obtain computer data.
You're running around in circles trying to find a "gotcha" stipulation that can allow illegal transactions to take place on this forum.  You're not serving the site or yourself by continuing to defend illegal and immoral sales.

So when it's say "or other dishonest intent", it does imply that the first part is dishonest also? I haven't seen the dishonesty, I didn't even see the infringing of security.

As far as I understood you're supporting the pirating of the copyrighted materials.

[shep]

I think for the good of bitcointalk this thread needs to be locked.

Honestly, locking the thread would be worse, because it solidifies intent of the admin to support illegal activity.

[vampire]

I'll give you an example.. World of warcraft accounts trading was going for ages.. Its exactly what's going here.

It isn't illegal. So IMO selling invites or legal accounts isn't also.

[shep]

I read the treaty (which requires nations that ratified and ascended follow these terms) , clearly you didn't. Article VI requires that only qualification.   By accessing a system you are connecting one computer system to another (networked activity) which is a defacto qualification.  In addition, users are consuming services (resources and transferring data), which is intent to obtain computer data.
You're running around in circles trying to find a "gotcha" stipulation that can allow illegal transactions to take place on this forum.  You're not serving the site or yourself by continuing to defend illegal and immoral sales.

So when it's say "or other dishonest intent", it does imply that the first part is dishonest also? I haven't seen the dishonesty, I even didn't seen the infringing of security.

As far as I understood you're supporting the pirating of the copyrighted materials.

I'm not going to dignify this with a response.  At this point you're just trolling this thread and are adding nothing of value to the discussion of the original topic of the thread.

[shep]

I'll give you an example.. World of warcraft accounts trading was going for ages.. Its exactly what's going here.

It isn't illegal. So IMO selling invites or legal accounts isn't also.

Sales, distribution, or otherwise making available of access codes or credentials for accounts is illegal if the site owner or institution has not authorized such transfers. Doing so constitutes illegal access and theft of service.  It's illegal period, you can shout otherwise until you're blue in the face, but as previously conveyed most first world and third world nations have statutes covering access fraud, computer fraud, and theft of service.  

[vampire]

I'm not going to dignify this with a response.  At this point you're just trolling this thread and are adding nothing of value to the discussion of the original topic of the thread.

You're making wild accusations right now without any proof. Also you said that NZB indexers / Torrent trackers aren't illegal. Here is a quote for you if you forgot:

I am not promoting any websites.  I have however commented on several, none of which I am affiliated with.  I also find it interesting that you seem to believe that these websites are illegal (most are not), yet you somehow take no issue with sales of credentials or access codes, which are illegal (yes if they were procured or distributed in an unauthorized manner it does fall under access fraud, misuse of access, computer fraud, illegal access, and/or theft of service).

I assume you know what happened to most of them?

[vampire]

Sales, distribution, or otherwise making available of access codes or credentials for accounts is illegal if the site owner or institution has not authorized such transfers. Doing so constitutes illegal access and theft of service.  It's illegal period, you can shout otherwise until you're blue in the face, but as previously conveyed most first world and third world nations have statutes covering access fraud, computer fraud, and theft of service.  Hell even sweden prosecuted theft of service complaint for prostitutes (i'm not joking).

You can keep repeating this over and over again. It doesn't make that right.

Since the accounts were created with a username and a password, they are the property of the creator. The creator can sell or trade them.

[21after2]

Sales, distribution, or otherwise making available of access codes or credentials for accounts is illegal if the site owner or institution has not authorized such transfers. Doing so constitutes illegal access and theft of service.  It's illegal period, you can shout otherwise until you're blue in the face, but as previously conveyed most first world and third world nations have statutes covering access fraud, computer fraud, and theft of service.  Hell even sweden prosecuted theft of service complaint for prostitutes (i'm not joking).

You can keep repeating this over and over again. It doesn't make that right.

Since the accounts were created with a username and a password, they are the property of the creator. The creator can sell or trade them.

A lot of websites put special clauses in their Terms of Service for those very reasons. You can sell or trade them, and they can sue you for it.

[shep]

I'm not going to dignify this with a response.  At this point you're just trolling this thread and are adding nothing of value to the discussion of the original topic of the thread.

You're making wild accusations right now without any proof. Also you said that NZB indexers / Torrent trackers aren't illegal. Here is a quote for you if you forgot:

I am not promoting any websites.  I have however commented on several, none of which I am affiliated with.  I also find it interesting that you seem to believe that these websites are illegal (most are not), yet you somehow take no issue with sales of credentials or access codes, which are illegal (yes if they were procured or distributed in an unauthorized manner it does fall under access fraud, misuse of access, computer fraud, illegal access, and/or theft of service).

I assume you know what happened to most of them?

The proof of your trolling is that the thread topic pertains to a forum policy advocated by admin and staff that pertains to unauthorized and/or secondary sales of access codes ("invites") and account credentials.  You continue to target your focus away from that topic.   You can focus specifically on Torrent Trackers or NZB indexers, it makes no difference when any website with a login mechanism is included in this discussion.  It does not matter if it is amazon.com, newegg.com, ebay.com, stocktrade.com, fbi.gov (hopefully you wouldn't be stupid enough to buy or sell credentials for this), or any other website.  The argument is the same.

Additionally if you choose to focus on NZB indexers and torrents sites and if you want to claim that they are illegal, that only supports an argument that their sales should not be allowed on this forum as it could harm the reputation of the currency and the forum.

[vampire]

A lot of websites put special clauses in their Terms of Service for those very reasons. You can sell or trade them, and they can sue you for it.

We aren't arguing if they can sue or not. The question: is this illegal.

[shep]

Sales, distribution, or otherwise making available of access codes or credentials for accounts is illegal if the site owner or institution has not authorized such transfers. Doing so constitutes illegal access and theft of service.  It's illegal period, you can shout otherwise until you're blue in the face, but as previously conveyed most first world and third world nations have statutes covering access fraud, computer fraud, and theft of service.  Hell even sweden prosecuted theft of service complaint for prostitutes (i'm not joking).

You can keep repeating this over and over again. It doesn't make that right.

Since the accounts were created with a username and a password, they are the property of the creator. The creator can sell or trade them.

You're welcome to believe this, but I can guarantee you that can be prosecuted for selling access codes or your credentials.  If you're a cia analyst you can't just go ahead an sell your credentials, they're authorized on a provisional basis.  Same goes for any other site using a database.  It doesn't matter if you're an investment banker, an insurance agent, your local parts store clerk, or simply a low end user.

[21after2]

A lot of websites put special clauses in their Terms of Service for those very reasons. You can sell or trade them, and they can sue you for it.

We aren't arguing if they can sue or not. The question: is this illegal.

Well, you would be going against a legally binding contract. I think that's enough to try and dissuade people from doing it.

[vampire]

I'm not going to dignify this with a response.  At this point you're just trolling this thread and are adding nothing of value to the discussion of the original topic of the thread.

You're making wild accusations right now without any proof. Also you said that NZB indexers / Torrent trackers aren't illegal. Here is a quote for you if you forgot:

I am not promoting any websites.  I have however commented on several, none of which I am affiliated with.  I also find it interesting that you seem to believe that these websites are illegal (most are not), yet you somehow take no issue with sales of credentials or access codes, which are illegal (yes if they were procured or distributed in an unauthorized manner it does fall under access fraud, misuse of access, computer fraud, illegal access, and/or theft of service).

I assume you know what happened to most of them?

The proof of your trolling is that the thread topic pertains to a forum policy advocated by admin and staff that pertains to unauthorized and/or secondary sales of access codes ("invites") and account credentials.  You continue to target your focus away from that topic.   You can focus specifically on Torrent Trackers or NZB indexers, it makes no difference when any website with a login mechanism is included in this discussion.  It does not matter if it is amazon.com, newegg.com, ebay.com, stocktrade.com, fbi.gov (hopefully you wouldn't be stupid enough to buy or sell credentials for this), or any other website.  The argument is the same.

Additionally if you choose to focus on NZB indexers and torrents sites and if you want to claim that they are illegal, that only supports an argument that their sales should not be allowed on this forum as it could harm the reputation of the currency and the forum.

We arguing if selling is illegal or not. Don't care about ToS (it's a contract law issue).

a) Person A has a legal access to the system.
b) Person A sells the access to the system to the person B
c) Person B access the system

Which of the steps is illegal, shep? If we take all the posts you made, that would be step C right?