My wife is a hero: mom shoots intruder 5 times, saves kids

[TheButterZone]

I got to learn how to interact with other kids of all demographics, a skill that you DO NOT get to learn if you are homeschooled

( The amount of times I was close to getting into a fist fight with those twats was ridiculous and it was because I was forced to deal with them )

You're gonna be forced to deal with people in the future. You can't just hide from interaction you don't like forever. And, I'm not just talking about interacting. Sure, if you're homeschooled you get that easy. I'm saying, at the school I went to, there was a majority of families in poverty, and even one kid who lived in the park next to our school. It's that kind of interaction that you most likely won't be exposed to.

The way we're going, the majority of homeschooling families (who have meetup groups) will be in poverty if they aren't already, and associating with homeless children.

There were two times that I suffered violence at public schools. And thank luck that these were the worst of it.

In 5th grade I was playing touch football on asphalt, and the goal line was a shallow drainage ditch. My memory generally sucks that far back, but I think I committed pass interference on the receiver and bumped him into the ditch and over into the dirt past it, as I was trying to intercept or block the ball. He didn't seem bloody or unable to stand afterward, or in verbal agony, so I thought he was okay, and after I said sorry and we helped him up, I walked off and knelt down to tie my shoe, and he screamed "I kill you!" and pushed me flat on my face. Knees and hands scraped, and "I kill you!" became the catchphrase of the rest of the year. I'm pretty sure he got checked out and didn't have any internal injuries or broken bones, otherwise he probably wouldn't have been able to have his swift revenge and I would have been in a lot of trouble. No hard feelings, I think we were friends before and again sometime after.

As an aside, the "bad kid" of my elementary school years was Jesus Pulido, and he fought with any adult he could many times, maybe a few of the scrappy kids, and jumped the back fence running away from school in the middle of the day at least once, also through the back gate when it was left open. I don't think the district ever knew what to do with him; maybe compulsory education meant he couldn't be expelled because there was no other place for him to go, and there was no "bad kids' campus" like the local high school district had. I wasn't able to find him easily on Google.

The second time was my last year, at the highschool with the wide open back gate. There was a kid there who seemed not to know his own strength/that it wasn't appropriate to punch people in the shoulder that hard multiple times, even if he tried to explain it away as jest/that I could yellow card him, as I was the music department head's teacher's aide (and TAD to the other faculty). No hard feelings there either, I just felt sorry for him.

[MoonShadow]

Anyway, the results of the public education system are much less due to the teachers or the schools than it is the parents. If a parent is constantly driving their kid and motivating him (or her) to do well, they will do well. They will learn more. If there's no motivation, and no discipline if the student is not doing well, then they will get nothing out of it. If you believe your child should, or could, be ahead of where the normal education is, there is almost always a public advanced pull-out program.

To a point, this is true enough.  However, the environment that a child is expected to learn within has as much as an affect on his/her outcomes as the motivation of the 'rents.

 I have been in one since fourth grade. I was taking junior-level maths as a 7th grader, without problem. You just need to look.

I don't need to look. The public school system, and even a few of the private schools, have repeatedly contacted my wife & I to get my kids into their "gifted & talented" programs.  That may be an experience unique to us, however, I can't be certain.  I know my own parents were offered similar conditions if they would remove me from the private school I was in, and put me into the public school.  I would have jumped at least one, and maybe two grades in the move.  My dad said no.  I was bitter about the whole thing at the time, but now I understand.

Public schools need the stats, private schools need the prestige that successful graduates bring.

Plus, going to a public school was one of the best things that could have happened to me in my opinion. I got to learn how to interact with other kids of all demographics, a skill that you DO NOT get to learn if you are homeschooled, but which is an invaluable tool in almost every profession today.

This is a myth.  One that is not improved by the common name of "homeschooling", since it's a misnomer.  It's a rare day that my kids stay home.  My daughter has cross country practice four days a week right now, and an all day coop class on Fridays. Coop is an elective school, wherein the students take classes from other homeschoolers' parents.  I've taught Praxeology, (Whatever Happened to Penny Candy? and Whatever Happened to Justice?) and am considering offering a course on investing stradgeties (Rich Dad, Poor Dad; What the Rich Teach their Children that The Poor Do Not and The Clipper Ship Stradgedy) or Cognative Programming (How to win freinds and Influence People).  While some private schools do offer courses like these, I've never even heard of a public or charter schol offering anything like this, and that is another point at which you are at a disadvantage to private or homeschooled children with your education.  While it's possible for a child with truely invested parents to get a very good education in a public school, it's not possible for anyone to receive a complete education, simply because there isn't enough time.  Since all public schools, and most private schools, must focus on a general education; they can't really commit time or resources to the kinds of elective education that homeschoolers can.  If your father was an economist, it's more likley that you will be an economist or a businessman in a related field of work, because children really do learn from their parents and their parents friends.  As a homeschooled parent, I can introduce other children to the particular skill sets that publicly educated children generally don't have access to.  It's not as if the 1% is actively keeping this information to themselves, it's the very nature of publicly funded education that limits your educational opprotunitities.  Honestly, which is more likely to offer you an advantage in a career as an adult; Algebra 2 or Praxeology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Praxeology)?  Now, be honest with yourself.  And think about this, we teach all children mathmatics; why don't we teach all children Economics?

I would recommend any and all of those books, BTW.

EDIT: I forgot to mention my eldist son's electives.  He's much more of an academic then his sister, but still has a weekly bowling league. In the past, he's attented regular groups such as Choir, Music Theory, Karate, he has been in several church plays as an actor and backup singer.  My son is the introvert, like myself; so he really isn't 'into' social things; nor is he nearly the athelete his sister is (which isn't to say she's some kind of star, either), but has competed on a rifle team with his 22lr Marlin adn want's a competition class youth recurve bow for his upcoming birthday, so he can shoot in an archery team that is near our new house.  He will probably be taking a piano class soon, but we have to wait until I can get my father's baby grand moved into our new home.  That piano has been in my father's family for four generations at least, and looked rough when I played under it as a tot.  Yes, I was born into the 1% and I'm not ashamed of the fact that I was born with advantages that my family could provide.  As mentioned, my brother fell out of the 1% years ago dispite all his gifts, and has no visable prospects of returning by his own efforts.

[termhn]

Anyway, the results of the public education system are much less due to the teachers or the schools than it is the parents. If a parent is constantly driving their kid and motivating him (or her) to do well, they will do well. They will learn more. If there's no motivation, and no discipline if the student is not doing well, then they will get nothing out of it. If you believe your child should, or could, be ahead of where the normal education is, there is almost always a public advanced pull-out program.

To a point, this is true enough.  However, the environment that a child is expected to learn within has as much as an affect on his/her outcomes as the motivation of the 'rents.

 I have been in one since fourth grade. I was taking junior-level maths as a 7th grader, without problem. You just need to look.

I don't need to look. The public school system, and even a few of the private schools, have repeatedly contacted my wife & I to get my kids into their "gifted & talented" programs.  That may be an experience unique to us, however, I can't be certain.  I know my own parents were offered similar conditions if they would remove me from the private school I was in, and put me into the public school.  I would have jumped at least one, and maybe two grades in the move.  My dad said no.  I was bitter about the whole thing at the time, but now I understand.

Public schools need the stats, private schools need the prestige that successful graduates bring.

Plus, going to a public school was one of the best things that could have happened to me in my opinion. I got to learn how to interact with other kids of all demographics, a skill that you DO NOT get to learn if you are homeschooled, but which is an invaluable tool in almost every profession today.

This is a myth.  One that is not improved by the common name of "homeschooling", since it's a misnomer.  It's a rare day that my kids stay home.  My daughter has cross country practice four days a week right now, and an all day coop class on Fridays. Coop is an elective school, wherein the students take classes from other homeschoolers' parents.  I've taught Praxeology, (Whatever Happened to Penny Candy? and Whatever Happened to Justice?) and am considering offering a course on investing stradgeties (Rich Dad, Poor Dad; What the Rich Teach their Children that The Poor Do Not and The Clipper Ship Stradgedy) or Cognative Programming (How to win freinds and Influence People).  While some private schools do offer courses like these, I've never even heard of a public or charter schol offering anything like this, and that is another point at which you are at a disadvantage to private or homeschooled children with your education.  While it's possible for a child with truely invested parents to get a very good education in a public school, it's not possible for anyone to receive a complete education, simply because there isn't enough time.  Since all public schools, and most private schools, must focus on a general education; they can't really commit time or resources to the kinds of elective education that homeschoolers can.  If your father was an economist, it's more likley that you will be an economist or a businessman in a related field of work, because children really do learn from their parents and their parents friends.  As a homeschooled parent, I can introduce other children to the particular skill sets that publicly educated children generally don't have access to.  It's not as if the 1% is actively keeping this information to themselves, it's the very nature of publicly funded education that limits your educational opprotunitities.  Honestly, which is more likely to offer you an advantage in a career as an adult; Algebra 2 or Praxeology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Praxeology)?  Now, be honest with yourself.  And think about this, we teach all children mathmatics; why don't we teach all children Economics?

I would recommend any and all of those books, BTW.

OK, I'm not going to say that a public education is BETTER than a private/homeschool one, because that obviously isn't true. What I am trying to say is that going to a public school isn't some kind of sin, and it's not as if going to the public school automatically results in a "dumber" child. That is a myth. Plus, what if your family cannot afford to homeschool or send you to a private school? My dad worked an 8-5 job and my mom worked from home on her own graphics business. We didn't have enough money to send me to a private school, and neither of my parents had enough time to homeschool me. It didn't matter though, I still got an excellent education at the school I went to.

[Biomech]

OK, I'm not going to say that a public education is BETTER than a private/homeschool one, because that obviously isn't true. What I am trying to say is that going to a public school isn't some kind of sin, and it's not as if going to the public school automatically results in a "dumber" child. That is a myth. Plus, what if your family cannot afford to homeschool or send you to a private school? My dad worked an 8-5 job and my mom worked from home on her own graphics business. We didn't have enough money to send me to a private school, and neither of my parents had enough time to homeschool me. It didn't matter though, I still got an excellent education at the school I went to.

On topic, I'll just say that there has never been a mass shooting at a private school.

Also, I have to correct myself, as you pointed out. It was someone else who had mentioned teacher's pay scale at private schools, and I got mixed up. Your point is noted and acknowledged. Charter schools didn't exist when I was in public school, so I actually have no opinion on their efficacy. I do object to being taxed for them, but I object to the existence of tax. I am an anarchist. Nevertheless, as far as it goes and given the world we live in, I have no experience of charter schools.

I will say that both statistically and in my own experience, your results are atypical. While high school does to some extent prep a person for college, it does nothing for your real world life. I would go so far as to say that the vaunted "socialization" that seems to be the only remaining fallback of those who object to homeschooling is detrimental to your real world life. It's the socialization of a prison. You are FORCED to interact with people who you have nothing in common with, and that's the least worse part of it.

If you are a geek, or any other "marginal" grouping, you WILL be bullied. I experienced this in EVERY school I went to. (My dad is an electrician. We traveled like military people do)The only "positive" I could derive out of this is that I learned very young how to fight for my life. So, from my experience, the only thing I got out of this vaunted socialization is the ability to kill with my hands. Is that really what the social engineers want? Granted, it's a valuable skill, but they overtly discourage any sort of self defense, so obviously they are either lying, or this is an unintended consequence. By the time I got out, I was convinced that being in a group larger than five people was likely a deadly peril. I went from being a friendly, if somewhat awkward, kid to an angry outcast who HATED my species. Took me a number of years to get over that. You can keep your socialization. There is no way my morals will allow me to inflict it on my children.

As to the rest, Moonshadow Ninja'd me again, so I'll leave his words to stand for me as well.

[MoonShadow]

OK, I'm not going to say that a public education is BETTER than a private/homeschool one, because that obviously isn't true. What I am trying to say is that going to a public school isn't some kind of sin, and it's not as if going to the public school automatically results in a "dumber" child. That is a myth. Plus, what if your family cannot afford to homeschool or send you to a private school? My dad worked an 8-5 job and my mom worked from home on her own graphics business. We didn't have enough money to send me to a private school, and neither of my parents had enough time to homeschool me. It didn't matter though, I still got an excellent education at the school I went to.

Good for you, but that makes you the exception, not the rule.  I'm sure that you already knew that, though.

Futhermore, homeschooling isn't expecially expensive, although it can be.  Private schools are much more expensive.  Public schools exist to provide a basic education for the middle class, which is a fine goal unto itself.  However, IMHO the system has been corrupted by personal and private interests, so that the public school districts have many hidden agendas which burden their budgets; resulting in a declining quality of education dispite a decades long trend of rising educational budgets.

And turning back to the topic of the thread, sending children into a forced social situation in order to learn to manage hostile personalities (what advocates might call, "toughening up") would be considered child abuse under any other context than education. I am of the opinion that the 8 year old "wimpy kid" learns nothing of lasting value by being exposed to an age peer bully; instead learning (at best) conflict avoidance or submittion to authoritarian personality types.  These are skills that can be taught as easily in a high school controlled environment, if they are really needed.  I, for one, have never had the experience of getting into a fistfight as an adult, particularly at work.  If you get beat up by a bully in school; you get to be suspended for a time, and get to see that same bully when you both get back.  Teh same experience as an adult in a workplace gets one of you fired and/or arrested while the other gets a lawsuit settlement for the "promotion of a hostile work envirnment".  School social envirnments don't translate well to the adult world, unless your adult world is a penitentiary.

[Biomech]

OK, I'm not going to say that a public education is BETTER than a private/homeschool one, because that obviously isn't true. What I am trying to say is that going to a public school isn't some kind of sin, and it's not as if going to the public school automatically results in a "dumber" child. That is a myth. Plus, what if your family cannot afford to homeschool or send you to a private school? My dad worked an 8-5 job and my mom worked from home on her own graphics business. We didn't have enough money to send me to a private school, and neither of my parents had enough time to homeschool me. It didn't matter though, I still got an excellent education at the school I went to.

Good for you, but that makes you the exception, not the rule.  I'm sure that you already knew that, though.

Futhermore, homeschooling isn't expecially expensive, although it can be.  Private schools are much more expensive.  Public schools exist to provide a basic education for the middle class, which is a fine goal unto itself.  However, IMHO the system has been corrupted by personal and private interests, so that the public school districts have many hidden agendas which burden their budgets; resulting in a declining quality of education dispite a decades long trend of rising educational budgets.

And turning back to the topic of the thread, sending children into a forced social situation in order to learn to manage hostile personalities (what advocates might call, "toughening up") would be considered child abuse under any other context than education. I am of the opinion that the 8 year old "wimpy kid" learns nothing of lasting value by being exposed to an age peer bully; instead learning (at best) conflict avoidance or submittion to authoritarian personality types.  These are skills that can be taught as easily in a high school controlled environment, if they are really needed.  I, for one, have never had the experience of getting into a fistfight as an adult, particularly at work.  If you get beat up by a bully in school; you get to be suspended for a time, and get to see that same bully when you both get back.  Teh same experience as an adult in a workplace gets one of you fired and/or arrested while the other gets a lawsuit settlement for the "promotion of a hostile work envirnment".  School social envirnments don't translate well to the adult world, unless your adult world is a penitentiary.

I think you missed one important aspect, and it does teach a lesson. Not a good one. In most cases, contrary to "pop culture" bullshit, the bully is a popular kid. Often a jock. He don't get suspended. The wimpy kid does.

Yet ten years later, if the "wimpy kid" gets his anger under control and dedicates himself, he's running a successful company, and the jock is pumping gas.

Your last sentence is so spot-on that I think I'm going to put it in my sig

[Mike Christ]

Plus, what if your family cannot afford to homeschool or send you to a private school?

If we can afford to pay for public schools through taxation, it should follow that we can afford them without; otherwise, we have a much deeper problem than not being able to afford schools without the aid of the wealthy.

[termhn]

Plus, what if your family cannot afford to homeschool or send you to a private school?

If we can afford to pay for public schools through taxation, it should follow that we can afford them without; otherwise, we have a much deeper problem than not being able to afford schools without the aid of the wealthy.

Not sure I catch what you're trying to say... are you trying to say that we can afford public schools without being taxed? If so, that is absolutely not true. Even with taxes, public schools have been having to cut out more and more extra curricular and elective classes. If you're trying to say that you should be able to afford a private school if you can pay tax to public schools, that isn't true either. The amount that you spend on taxes to public schools is miniscule in comparison to the significant majority of private schools. Even in grade school, many private schools charge upwards of $5,000 for one year of tuition, and in high school a lot of them are upwards of $10,000. Kind of ironic, I'm paying more for my high school tuition now than I will be for college in a few years.

[MoonShadow]

Your last sentence is so spot-on that I think I'm going to put it in my sig

You're welcome to it, but I would recommend that you correct my letter salad. I can tell I'm getting tired.

[MoonShadow]

Plus, what if your family cannot afford to homeschool or send you to a private school?

If we can afford to pay for public schools through taxation, it should follow that we can afford them without; otherwise, we have a much deeper problem than not being able to afford schools without the aid of the wealthy.

Not sure I catch what you're trying to say... are you trying to say that we can afford public schools without being taxed? If so, that is absolutely not true. Even with taxes, public schools have been having to cut out more and more extra curricular and elective classes. If you're trying to say that you should be able to afford a private school if you can pay tax to public schools, that isn't true either. The amount that you spend on taxes to public schools is miniscule in comparison to the significant majority of private schools. Even in grade school, many private schools charge upwards of $5,000 for one year of tuition, and in high school a lot of them are upwards of $10,000. Kind of ironic, I'm paying more for my high school tuition now than I will be for college in a few years.

The average public school district budget nationwide was about $12K per year per student, K through 12.  Many private schools (particularly Catholic or Baptist elementary schools) are well under that number.  However, many private schools are much more than this number.  Decades ago, my parents sent myself, my sister and my brother to a private elementary grade school that charged $8K per semester.  It could easily be twice that now.

Logicly speaking, if we can afford the public school now with taxes, we can afford it without the taxes and paying for it privately.  That's a mathmatical truth.  However, we can't really afford the public schools' budgets anymore, and that is a major contributor to municipal debt and insolvency today.  So one can take that both ways.

[Mike Christ]

Plus, what if your family cannot afford to homeschool or send you to a private school?

If we can afford to pay for public schools through taxation, it should follow that we can afford them without; otherwise, we have a much deeper problem than not being able to afford schools without the aid of the wealthy.

Not sure I catch what you're trying to say... are you trying to say that we can afford public schools without being taxed? If so, that is absolutely not true. Even with taxes, public schools have been having to cut out more and more extra curricular and elective classes. If you're trying to say that you should be able to afford a private school if you can pay tax to public schools, that isn't true either. The amount that you spend on taxes to public schools is miniscule in comparison to the significant majority of private schools. Even in grade school, many private schools charge upwards of $5,000 for one year of tuition, and in high school a lot of them are upwards of $10,000. Kind of ironic, I'm paying more for my high school tuition now than I will be for college in a few years.

Look at it another way:

No wealth falls from the sky; to pay for public schools, the public is taxed; ergo, public schools are entirely paid for by the public.  If public schools are paid for through taxing the public, and no extra money is being injected into schools without the help of the public, then this means that schools are being paid for with private funds.

Remember, the state is not magical, and does not generate wealth; the state has but two functions: get money, then allocate money.  So if the state collects money, then places that money in schools, it should follow that people are entirely capable of paying for schools voluntarily, as they are already paying for schools involuntarily.  A public school is no more expensive than a private school, except when regulation is enforced.

Of course, when I say bigger problems, I refer to the major divide where few entities suck up the wealth like a magnet, thus leading to an effect making the rich richer and the poor poorer, but, beside all that...

School is kind of a non-essential nowadays since people no longer need human beings to teach them, we've had libraries and now the Internet for a while now; if a person wants to learn, they'll of course do it, but if they do not, now we're faced with an important question: is it moral to force a person to learn in the way we want them to?

[MoonShadow]

I think you missed one important aspect, and it does teach a lesson. Not a good one. In most cases, contrary to "pop culture" bullshit, the bully is a popular kid. Often a jock. He don't get suspended. The wimpy kid does.

Yet ten years later, if the "wimpy kid" gets his anger under control and dedicates himself, he's running a successful company, and the jock is pumping gas.

I have to admit, this didn't happen in my school, and for the most part neither did the kind of bullying that seems to happen too often these days.  There was, literally, no drugs or weapons within my school when I went there.  And I attended a private, all boys, high school as well; suit, tie and black leather shoes required.  We didn't have weapons there either (drugs, probably; but it certainly wasn't blatant) but we didn't consider a pocket knife a weapon at that time either.  My high school had a dedicated faculty position called the "disciplinarian" who was second only to the principal himself.  I'm sure you can imagine that any such behavior incidents were handled in a completely different manner as compared to the public school systems.  No one was ever 'suspended' from my school, and if you were expelled, it's a fair chance your parents wept for your lost future.  In my grade school prinicpal's office, she kept an old paddle on the wall, mostly to intimidate the students.  In my high school, the disciplinarian kept a horse whip on the wall.

Not exactly an ideal environment for low stress learning either, in recollection.

[RodeoX]

I have always taught at private schools. They are a world apart from your average public school. The parents are paying tens of thousands per year and they expect a serious attempt at education. No dumbed down Texas text books, no standardized tests, and the guards/teachers are armed. Save the compromises and feel good measures for the PTA, rich kids actually learn at school and are kept safe.

[MoonShadow]

I have always taught at private schools. They are a world apart from your average public school. The parents are paying tens of thousands per year and they expect a serious attempt at education. No dumbed down Texas text books, no standardized tests, and the guards/teachers are armed. Save the compromises and feel good measures for the PTA, rich kids actually learn at school and are kept safe.

Yes, but then there's still that issue with the horsewhip...

[termhn]

I have always taught at private schools. They are a world apart from your average public school. The parents are paying tens of thousands per year and they expect a serious attempt at education. No dumbed down Texas text books, no standardized tests, and the guards/teachers are armed. Save the compromises and feel good measures for the PTA, rich kids actually learn at school and are kept safe.

Yes, but then there's still that issue with the horsewhip...

That doesn't happen anymore these days

[MoonShadow]

I have always taught at private schools. They are a world apart from your average public school. The parents are paying tens of thousands per year and they expect a serious attempt at education. No dumbed down Texas text books, no standardized tests, and the guards/teachers are armed. Save the compromises and feel good measures for the PTA, rich kids actually learn at school and are kept safe.

Yes, but then there's still that issue with the horsewhip...

That doesn't happen anymore these days

Probably not often, but I wouldn't be so sure that it never happens.  I'd wager that there is a wavier somewhere...

[termhn]

I have always taught at private schools. They are a world apart from your average public school. The parents are paying tens of thousands per year and they expect a serious attempt at education. No dumbed down Texas text books, no standardized tests, and the guards/teachers are armed. Save the compromises and feel good measures for the PTA, rich kids actually learn at school and are kept safe.

Yes, but then there's still that issue with the horsewhip...

That doesn't happen anymore these days

Probably not often, but I wouldn't be so sure that it never happens.  I'd wager that there is a wavier somewhere...

Well, at least at the school I attend, it doesn't happen.

[MoonShadow]

I have always taught at private schools. They are a world apart from your average public school. The parents are paying tens of thousands per year and they expect a serious attempt at education. No dumbed down Texas text books, no standardized tests, and the guards/teachers are armed. Save the compromises and feel good measures for the PTA, rich kids actually learn at school and are kept safe.

Yes, but then there's still that issue with the horsewhip...

That doesn't happen anymore these days

Probably not often, but I wouldn't be so sure that it never happens.  I'd wager that there is a wavier somewhere...

Well, at least at the school I attend, it doesn't happen.

Let's test that theory.  Get hammered, steal your father's favorite car, snort cocaine off of the back seat with a pair of hookers, and total the car into the founder's statue at your private school.  If they don't produce a horsewhip after that then you can assume you're safe.  If your mother says, "boys will be boys" then you're destined for Harvard.

[capa]

liberty for everyone, socialism is a schism  

[MoonShadow]

liberty for everyone, socialism is a schism  

How random.  Bot, much?