Community Miner Design Discussion

[in2tactics]

In what world does "teamwork" imply "design-by-committee"?

In the real world! A product is designed by a team , is produced by a team, is tested by a team, is sold by a team ... people work together to make things happen ...

I have been a freelance independent programmer for so many years but when it comes to do serious work, I gather a handful of best fellas and share everything with them, including my core ideas about the job, I expose everything to their critics and suggestions and change a lot of my initial designs, everybody is happy, teammates feel respect and become more motivated and responsive, the customer is satisfied and I have learned a lot and I make profits. I keep the 'last word' right though which I use it rarely and politely ... it is team work and it is design-by-team and a committee is nothing less or more than a team.

When you say, "design-by-committee", I do not hear "teamwork". Now, it may just be me, but what I hear is, "bureaucrats tying down the engineering team with endless demands of pie-in-the-sky bullshit that is only good for one thing, the bureaucrats pockets."

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[kilo17]

Aliashraf,
I think you are missing the point still, the objective of this community miner is not to compete with industrial scale production, it is not to make a profit, it is not to change the face of Bitcoin or the direction it is going.  I think this project is a simple plan to produce a miner that common people that love Bitcoin can purchase, mine with and enjoy.

'common people' are a lot dear Mr. Kilo,
I agree neither you nor sidehack has ever talked about addressing Bitcoin centralization threat but it is the direct consequence of having 'ordinary people' being able to mine ... just think about it: hundreds of thousands of people having 1-10 Th/s machines mining, it is almost a quarter or more of the total hash power and  definitively it will put an end to the crisis.

Also I think the need for a 'community miner' is a consequence of the crisis itself. Bitcoin by definition is about community mining it is the most basic principle of everything about Bitcoin.
When ASIC came into the scene and Chinese began to establish their multi ph/s farms, playing the role of a miner and a mining hardware seller at the same time, community mining became obsolete, Bitcoin was put in the danger and kilo117 started his thread about the need for a community miner ... it is the real history of this thread.

I do not disagree with you but we are not looking to end "the crisis".  Maybe this will help you understand at least my position on this.

Sidehack and I have discussed building a miner for 8-10 months now.  I was going to have special mining boards made for a "Home Immersion Cooling" experiment.  It was a quite experiment and only 2-3 people knew about it. 

I have since moved on with those plans and have redirected my energy into this project.  The most important key point that I think you have missed is this- It is going to be close to 100% funded by me.  That is important for more than a few reasons.  First, it has ZERO chance of being a scam.  You are fairly new to this community but there is a long history of miners being paid for in advance and then those people getting screwed over.  Secondly, we have not and will not be accepting outside money, mostly for the same reasons and also to leave the final decisions in only a few hands as to minimize disruptions or diversion of the ultimate goal.

If you want to fund or kickstart a miner then I think it is great and I would probably buy some completed miners.  If you are looking for a bunch of people to kick in cash for a preproduction miner - it will never happen.

This is an open discussion about a miner that I labeled "Community Miner" because it is being built for the community and by community members.  Nothing more and nothing less.

[aliashraf]

In what world does "teamwork" imply "design-by-committee"?

In the real world! A product is designed by a team , is produced by a team, is tested by a team, is sold by a team ... people work together to make things happen ...

I have been a freelance independent programmer for so many years but when it comes to do serious work, I gather a handful of best fellas and share everything with them, including my core ideas about the job, I expose everything to their critics and suggestions and change a lot of my initial designs, everybody is happy, teammates feel respect and become more motivated and responsive, the customer is satisfied and I have learned a lot and I make profits. I keep the 'last word' right though which I use it rarely and politely ... it is team work and it is design-by-team and a committee is nothing less or more than a team.

When you say, "design-by-committee", I do not hear "teamwork". Now, it may just be me, but what I hear is, "bureaucrats tying down the engineering team with endless demands of pie-in-the-sky bullshit that is only good for one thing, the bureaucrats pockets."

Yes it is just by you. I hate bureaucracy since 80's, I have enough reasons and evident for this and do not need more.

Teamwork and management is not bureaucracy, it is about collaboration and respect and about remaining focused and oriented.

I personally need a lot of help from mates to remain focused and can afford a lot of help to keep people focused too.

[aliashraf]

Aliashraf,
I think you are missing the point still, the objective of this community miner is not to compete with industrial scale production, it is not to make a profit, it is not to change the face of Bitcoin or the direction it is going.  I think this project is a simple plan to produce a miner that common people that love Bitcoin can purchase, mine with and enjoy.

'common people' are a lot dear Mr. Kilo,
I agree neither you nor sidehack has ever talked about addressing Bitcoin centralization threat but it is the direct consequence of having 'ordinary people' being able to mine ... just think about it: hundreds of thousands of people having 1-10 Th/s machines mining, it is almost a quarter or more of the total hash power and  definitively it will put an end to the crisis.

Also I think the need for a 'community miner' is a consequence of the crisis itself. Bitcoin by definition is about community mining it is the most basic principle of everything about Bitcoin.
When ASIC came into the scene and Chinese began to establish their multi ph/s farms, playing the role of a miner and a mining hardware seller at the same time, community mining became obsolete, Bitcoin was put in the danger and kilo117 started his thread about the need for a community miner ... it is the real history of this thread.

I do not disagree with you but we are not looking to end "the crisis".  Maybe this will help you understand at least my position on this.

Sidehack and I have discussed building a miner for 8-10 months now.  I was going to have special mining boards made for a "Home Immersion Cooling" experiment.  It was a quite experiment and only 2-3 people knew about it.  

I have since moved on with those plans and have redirected my energy into this project.  The most important key point that I think you have missed is this- It is going to be close to 100% funded by me.  That is important for more than a few reasons.  First, it has ZERO chance of being a scam.  You are fairly new to this community but there is a long history of miners being paid for in advance and then those people getting screwed over.  Secondly, we have not and will not be accepting outside money, mostly for the same reasons and also to leave the final decisions in only a few hands as to minimize disruptions or diversion of the ultimate goal.

If you want to fund or kickstart a miner then I think it is great and I would probably buy some completed miners.  If you are looking for a bunch of people to kick in cash for a preproduction miner - it will never happen.

This is an open discussion about a miner that I labeled "Community Miner" because it is being built for the community and by community members.  Nothing more and nothing less.

Acquisitions of scam and conspiracy are among most important concerns of you and can be easily managed with a protocol backed by the Blockchain.

I am trying to deploy a semi-autonomous distributed organization with special interests in supporting community miner hardware design and implementation as it is aligned with long term objectives of the most likely founders and members of it.
It is not about a fake company or a cone man accepting pre-orders for some fictional product.
It is about kicking such a cone scenario out for ever by having discipline and semi-smart contracts and at the same time it is about leveraging resources needed for a real world large scale project which deserves to be labeled as a 'community miner project.

The community is large enough to be behaved with caution and readiness.

[RichBC]

Acquisitions of scam and conspiracy are among most important concerns of you and can be easily managed with a protocol backed by the Blockchain.

I am trying to deploy a semi-autonomous distributed organization with special interests in supporting community miner hardware design and implementation as it is aligned with long term objectives of the most likely founders and members of it.
It is not about a fake company or a cone man accepting pre-orders for some fictional product.
It is about kicking such a cone scenario out for ever by having discipline and semi-smart contracts and at the same time it is about leveraging resources needed for a real world large scale project which deserves to be labeled as a 'community miner project.

The community is large enough to be behaved with caution and readiness.

I have got to say that it's verbal garbage like this that sums up why Sidehack & Kilo17 should just get on with it... 

Rich

[aliashraf]

I have got to say that it's verbal garbage like this that sums up why Sidehack & Kilo17 should just get on with it... 

Rich

I have got to say garbage can be recycled and useful unlike your words that are to be labeled definitively as poison. say something meaningful our just watch and observe how civilized people discuss critical problems like this.

[RichBC]

I have got to say garbage can be recycled and useful unlike your words that are to be labeled definitively as poison. say something meaningful our just watch and observe how civilized people discuss critical problems like this.

If you return to the OP's, as we all should from time to time, you will find that this project is all about securing some chips, designing an efficient, flexible and cost effective Power and Control solution. Then making this available to the Community at a reasonable price.

I still fail to see how any of you collection of superficially impressive words adds to this?


Rich

[aliashraf]

If you return to the OP's, as we all should from time to time, you will find that this project is all about securing some chips, designing an efficient, flexible and cost effective Power and Control solution. Then making this available to the Community at a reasonable price.

I still fail to see how any of you collection of superficially impressive words adds to this?


Rich

It is labeled as community miner design discussion, and now you are reducing it to some voltage control tricks and saving some chips, I am not.
I am generalizing it as such a problem:

How can we manage for the sole purpose behind Bitcoin core consensus protocol: 'mining by a large decentralized community', to be fulfilled by designing and producing a series of 'community mining' hardware and solutions?

Generalization, according to my experience and knowledge  in most cases works better than reduction. and obviously with such a generalization the first definitive requirement is investment and the second is organization.

I don't give a shit to voltage adjustment stuff, I'm not that naive to be excited with a firmware playing with voltage level of a damn Bitmain sx.

I'm seriously concerned about a total solution to the most basic crisis of the community, right now, in the right, practical way.

Just forget about 'saving some chips' , It is about saving the whole chips, Bitcoin chips, it is what a 'community miner' is about, not an epsilon less than that, get yourself together,

[chiguireitor]

I think this thread has been derailed to the point of being pointless now, the SNR has become unbearable already. Please, try to keep clutter down, and move whatever design proposal and/or musings about hardware design you have to another thread please.

[aliashraf]

I think this thread has been derailed to the point of being pointless now, the SNR has become unbearable already. Please, try to keep clutter down, and move whatever design proposal and/or musings about hardware design you have to another thread please.

SNR was good, before this new noise.

And voltage control stuff has already been moved to another thread by sidehack don't worry, you can always find a lot about how to adjust S7 under-clock and ... here and there , this is about 'community miner design discussion' and we are good, don't worry

[in2tactics]

I have got to say garbage can be recycled and useful unlike your words that are to be labeled definitively as poison. say something meaningful our just watch and observe how civilized people discuss critical problems like this.

If you return to the OP's, as we all should from time to time, you will find that this project is all about securing some chips, designing an efficient, flexible and cost effective Power and Control solution. Then making this available to the Community at a reasonable price.

I still fail to see how any of you collection of superficially impressive words adds to this?

Rich

I am starting to think we are being trolled. It certainly feels like it.

[sidehack]

When I hear "design by committee" the connotation for me is "a bunch of dudes sitting around talking for countless hours". There is no attempt at implementation, or no real teamwork going into it. Just a lot of time gets wasted. Committes debate while teams do.

"Design by team", now there's something I can get behind. Find two or three people, each with a general knowledge of everything and assigned a specific module and someone approximately in charge. Spend a bit of time discussing the problems, come up with a means of solving each problem and how the modules interact, then go do it. Which is sorta what aliashraf is trying to get across; the problem is nomenclature. In America it's pretty much understood that committees never actually accomplish anything, so if you're in the world of actually getting things done you BY NO MEANS want a committee involved unless you want everything to take ten times longer, cost ten times as much to develop, and probably end up sucking anyway.

Also, in reading this (or pretty much any technical) thread, my eyes glaze over and I skip any post that starts out loaded with management-speak.

Also, this is Kilo's thread about he and I designing a mining framework, thanks for that reminder. It's probably best if you keep the "let's leverage blockchain-hijacking protocols for something something automatic money something something it's the best" (like I said, I glaze over when management-speak happens) to the thread you started specifically on the subject. It has gone on long enough here, and when the owner of the thread asks you to leave it's polite to pay attention.

[2112]

First, it has ZERO chance of being a scam.

I wish both of you (kilo17 & sidehack) all the best, but you've only expressed your intentions.

AFAIK kilo17's professional background is MD (medical doctor) in the USA. If that is true, then this is the most over-regulated and over-protected of all professions. You probably have very little experience in unregulated business and with sharks preying there.

I did quite a bit of consulting for the electronics companies set up by cardiologists, and let me pass to you advice of one of them: "admit to yourselves that we've been mollycoddled by the AMA and we have much to learn from those who work in other fields in the USA. Or even the same field, but internationally, with much less regulatory oversight."

In my opinion you (kilo17 & sidehack) need to obtain services and advice of some civil contract lawyer and private investigator. Lawyer would check the contracts and agreements you enter into. PI would check the background of the prospective partners and important customers. IIRC both of you already have experience with "promise and don't deliver" businessmen. That was comparatively cheap lesson compared to other "promise and steal" or "promise and sue" business operators.

Your good intentions will not protect you from scammers and extortionists.

Edit: cypherdoc is no longer posting on this forum. After his brief involvement with Hashfast he had to settle the lawsuits against him. You'll have to research this yourselves, I cannot post links.

[aliashraf]

First, it has ZERO chance of being a scam.

I wish both of you (kilo17 & sidehack) all the best, but you've only expressed your intentions.

AFAIK kilo17's professional background is MD (medical doctor) in the USA. If that is true, then this is the most over-regulated and over-protected of all professions. You probably have very little experience in unregulated business and with sharks preying there.

I did quite a bit of consulting for the electronics companies set up by cardiologists, and let me pass to you advice of one of them: "admit to yourselves that we've been mollycoddled by the AMA and we have much to learn from those who work in other fields in the USA. Or even the same field, but internationally, with much less regulatory oversight."

In my opinion you (kilo17 & sidehack) need to obtain services and advice of some civil contract lawyer and private investigator. Lawyer would check the contracts and agreements you enter into. PI would check the background of the prospective partners and important customers. IIRC both of you already have experience with "promise and don't deliver" businessmen. That was comparatively cheap lesson compared to other "promise and steal" or "promise and sue" business operators.

Your good intentions will not protect you from scammers and extortionists.

Edit: cypherdoc is no longer posting on this forum. After his brief involvement with Hashfast he had to settle the lawsuits against him. You'll have to research this yourselves, I cannot post links.

I don't remember to be aligned with this guy,2112, in one single direction ever, but, OMG, it is happening, somewhat though, ... somewhat

I have to mention a point and I'll leave this thread as I have been asked, afterwards ...

The point: Blockchain has enough potential right now to fix most of the scam and extortion stuff, I proposed semi-smart contracts for this purpose.

Another point: (Ok. I'm leaving, just one another point ) This forume, bitcointalk, holds a huge amount of social capital (which I have almost zero share in it, being a newbie here) to be brief my proposal is about using both the Blockchain infrastructure and this forum's 'network of trust' (to be defined later), one can implement a semi-smart contract and run a semi-automated distributed organization.

oh, I follow my campaign here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1528750.0

[sidehack]

That's all more reasons why I'm not quick to jump into bed with any group, organization, third-party or "investor". I'd rather I get screwed than customers get screwed, but at the same time I really hate getting screwed. If I was fine taking in money from who-knows-where and had the resources to police it all, heck we'd have been shipping Gekkoscience-branded miners for the Christmas season.

Good advice for when things get to that point.

[ZedZedNova]

... the objective of this community miner is not to compete with industrial scale production, it is not to make a profit, it is not to change the face of Bitcoin or the direction it is going.  I think this project is a simple plan to produce a miner that common people that love Bitcoin can purchase, mine with and enjoy.

It is also a place to listen to what the little guys want and to respond.

ding! ding! ding!

We have a winner! @Kilo17 hit the mark. I'm interested and have been annoying @sidehack and the other contributors/readers on the other thread with my thoughts. I'm not into mining to corner the hashing market, I'm in it as a hobby. If the miner returns my investment, sweet! If it doesn't, that's OK, too. It's also really cool that I can help someone realize their goal of designing and producing a working miner. If they make some coin from my purchase, that's great. It also gives them the incentive to produce the next cool miner, or whatever.

Cheers,

- zed

[ZedZedNova]

In America it's pretty much understood that committees never actually accomplish anything

One of my teachers, probably in high school, defined a committee as a living organism with many stomachs and no brain. That definition and what it connotes stays with me. If I am asked to be part of a committee, it has got to be a small number of people, perhaps 3-5, who, as @sidehack said, have broad knowledge and the ability to get it done. There are two things I would add to that and they are an open mind and a willingness to learn new things.

It's far easier to reach a consensus with a small group of people than a larger group. In the larger group you will likely find that there is a small group that does the work (has the knowledge and the willingness to express their opinion publicly), and who the other members follow.

Your mileage may vary. I know that mine does.

Cheers,

- zed

[kilo17]

Aliashraf:

I can appreciate your enthusiasm but you must realize that some of the people debating with you on this thread and your thread are EXTREMELY qualified about electronics and miners.  I have been involved in Bitcoin since early 2014 and have about 2 1/2 years of knowledge and I am a young pup to these other guys.

On top of that, some of the guys you are debating with have more education and knowledge about design, layout and fabrication than you and I will ever know.

I have made my fair share of mistakes in Bitcoin and Alt Coin mining etc but have walked away with valuable info.  I have made mistakes in life that have thought me valuable lessons.  The only thing going to stay with me and what truly matters are my family and how I conduct my affairs.  Those were hard lessons to learn but I can assure you I won't make the same mistakes twice.  The only reason I say these things is to hopefully give you pause about what is really possible and what is really important.

I am at a point where I want to do some things that truly matter and I do not need to solve world hunger.  For me, a community miner designed and built by community members to sell to community members is enough.  I am not going to end the mega farms or the centralization of miners nor am I even going to try.  I think you will appreciate it when something changes your life, for me it was my wife being diagnosed with breast cancer.  I cannot change that either but I can appreciate the time I have with my family now way more than before.

Today I am ok with spending time with my family and doing some little things like working on a community miner.

[kilo17]

Now, back on topic.  I am still talking to an ASIC supplier twice per week waiting on updates.  Still nothing on the Bitfury front.  I have also been reaching out to BW (I will have a hell of a phone bill this month I am sure) but that is in its infancy and I will update if anything comes of it.

[aliashraf]

Now, back on topic.  I am still talking to an ASIC supplier twice per week waiting on updates.  Still nothing on the Bitfury front.  I have also been reaching out to BW (I will have a hell of a phone bill this month I am sure) but that is in its infancy and I will update if anything comes of it.

I make this prophecy:

You will get nothing out of BW and you will keep getting nothing out of Bitfury and you have no fortune with Bitmain absolutely!

Not a strange and exciting enough prophecy?

not a fault of me, the poor ordinary prophet!

The Almighty assigns simple jobs to me