The State of the ASIC Market

[nathanrees19]

I've began to question the literacy of the people in this forum.

I suspect that some posters were simply annoyed by the lack of demo, which had previously been promised.

What constitute the difference between a delay and fraud.

Malice.

When does a delay or the failure to meet expectations cross the line into a scam?

Never, since that usually comes from bad luck or incompetence.

[hardcore-fs]

I would have thought any asic company would be thrilled to show off a working demo unit mining away. Absolutely thrilled to share in their hard work and amaze everyone. But i guess i live in bizarro world. Go figure. Marketing and common sense treatment of customers and future customers is harder then being an engineer. Two diff types of people i guess.

Pure speculation at this point however consider the following say they demo the working unit. Then the next day a group rob the facility.

Perhaps it is as much a security step as it is a project policy that they stick with their time schedule.

That is perhaps the dumbest thing I have heard....

[nathanrees19]

I would have thought any asic company would be thrilled to show off a working demo unit mining away. Absolutely thrilled to share in their hard work and amaze everyone. But i guess i live in bizarro world. Go figure. Marketing and common sense treatment of customers and future customers is harder then being an engineer. Two diff types of people i guess.

Pure speculation at this point however consider the following say they demo the working unit. Then the next day a group rob the facility.

Perhaps it is as much a security step as it is a project policy that they stick with their time schedule.

That is perhaps the dumbest thing I have heard....

You must be new.

[YipYip]

I would have thought any asic company would be thrilled to show off a working demo unit mining away. Absolutely thrilled to share in their hard work and amaze everyone. But i guess i live in bizarro world. Go figure. Marketing and common sense treatment of customers and future customers is harder then being an engineer. Two diff types of people i guess.

Pure speculation at this point however consider the following say they demo the working unit. Then the next day a group rob the facility.

Perhaps it is as much a security step as it is a project policy that they stick with their time schedule.

That is perhaps the dumbest thing I have heard....

You must be new.

Agreed...

[lucif]

Network total: 23.555 Thash/s

Still... Hehe.

[ElectricMucus]

So what will people do when there are no avalons next week?

Panic?

[YipYip]

So what will people do when there are no avalons next week?

Panic?

Run Forest Run !!

[nathanrees19]

So what will people do when there are no avalons next week?

Panic?

[PuertoLibre]

Sorry Bitsyncom, but you are completely full of shit.  Completely.  You have repeatedly stated that it's "impossible" to do things, yet somehow BFL manages to do the "imposisble."  

Uh, no it doesn't.

See BFL @ CES 2013.

Why do you continually prod me with a stick?  

Change the word stick with Fact and you have a conversation worth holding.

BitSyncom stated that BFL would not be ready as claimed. They weren't. See the posting on BFL forums for that.

BitSyncom also stated that a production of ASIC is a known process governed by physics. It is a predictable process. Again Josh refutes this in his ignorance.

What happened in January? (30 days later)

They still didn't have the chips ready. Was this predictable based on the manifacturing cycle? Yes.

----------------------------

Now Bitsyncom is providing more claims, that a package change cannot be done on "a whim". That it would require significant changes?

In all of your post you do not deny this. Here take a look at what you wrote:

I have left you alone to go do your own thing with your ancient technology and your ridiculously immense power requirements, yet you want to keep antagonizing me.  Why is that?  

Because he is in the same buisness as you. And knows enough about making ASIC (even if on a larger process) to know when you are pulling a bullshit stunt to buy "extra time".

Which is...coincidentally....the trend.

I really hope you have something to show on Monday, you have about 24 hours to produce, so we'll see then.  

Josh levels the demand just days before having told his customers (paraphrased):

"It will be ready in another month. Just wait. Oh, and I have some goodies of more pictures for you to contend with."

The fact of the matter is, though, no one is going to buy your 1990's tech after we ship, so enjoy the few weeks of glory you will have if you can manage to ship a working product that doesn't melt.

LOL, in one breath he states the age of the process was developed and used in the world of technology, but gladfully omits that 90nm and 65nm was developed almost ten years ago.

Does that put things into perspective? Nah. Blowing more smoke.

Oh, and he finishes it off "professionally" with a "so enjoy the few weeks of glory you will have if you can manage to ship a working product that doesn't melt."

Which is coincidentally what happened to his plastic packaged BFL ASICs when they were checked in December. (keep in mind we are now in the later fringes of Mid-January)

You can't make this kind of comedy up!

PS - Your last few sentences are interesting.  Are you having some issues with heat and have to throttle back a bit to fix the the issue?  

Said by the guy who's chips melted....

(Ah, by the way, bASIC was going to release 1.4w per GH/s chips @ 90nm)

(BFL is now going to release up to 1.2w per GH/s chips @ 65nm)

Heh.

[PuertoLibre]

Sorry Bitsyncom, but you are completely full of shit.  Completely.  You have repeatedly stated that it's "impossible" to do things, yet somehow BFL manages to do the "imposisble."  

Why do you continually prod me with a stick?  I have left you alone to go do your own thing with your ancient technology and your ridiculously immense power requirements, yet you want to keep antagonizing me.  Why is that?  

I really hope you have something to show on Monday, you have about 24 hours to produce, so we'll see then.  The fact of the matter is, though, no one is going to buy your 1990's tech after we ship, so enjoy the few weeks of glory you will have if you can manage to ship a working product that doesn't melt.

if the imposisble is to announce numerous delays  and alienate others with cutting remarks such as 1990's tech, then yeah BFL has done quite a good job.


I dont have an order with any asic mfg. yet, but it looks like Avalon will be the first to market and the first choice customers. This far, they've shown the most definite shipping date, and even if they release a melting product on monday, it will still be leaps beyond the current state of Butterfly Labs' ASIC, which was supposed to be released In December.

He's just worried.

They probably let him know something unfortunate when he got to the chip plant in Calfifornia.

Take a look at the BFL twitter feed. He said it was a long day. I wonder what that means. Typically you would hear him expunge himself of utter enthusiam for things going great.

I am guessing...something did not go well.

P.S. For the uneducated the packaging part of the process is where they also test and check the chips performance values.

[PuertoLibre]

So what will people do when there are no avalons next week?

Panic?

The same thing as BFL and bASIC customers....wait.

At least their delays aren't all that long.

[BitSyncom]

You have repeatedly stated that it's "impossible" to do things, yet somehow BFL is trying to do the "imposisble."

FTFY. Historically BFL has only failed in every "impossible" task they have attempted, and till this date have no results.
  

Why do you continually prod me with a stick?  I have left you alone to go do your own thing with your ancient technology and your ridiculously immense power requirements, yet you want to keep antagonizing me.  Why is that?

Sorry Inaba, but you are completely full of shit.  Completely.
You've continue to refresh what I've thought was the rock bottom of your ability to construct a logical response. The delusional confidence you have from a mere simulation is laughable.

I wish you best of luck for when if you get your chips back at the end of this month a miracle descents and BFL is able to meet your 1.2w per Gh/s fallacy

p.s.
You are not the only one with 65nm simulations.

Question:
How far does Avalon have to miss their stated performance before you request a full refund?

This is purpose of this thread and it should apply to every ASIC manufacture, Avalon included, but not limited to.

When does a delay or the failure to meet expectations cross the line into a scam?

Never, since that usually comes from bad luck or incompetence.

Really now? Maybe I should announce we'll be shipping at our original shipping date of end of Feb, 2013 due to "bad luck"

[YipYip]

So what will people do when there are no avalons next week?

Panic?

The same thing as BFL and bASIC customers....wait.

At leas their delays aren't all that long.

I think even if AVALON or BFL supplied product @ %50 of spec G/Hash used %500 more power customers would be happy

This is where allowances are made due to start up's

Ball is in both BFL & Avalon court

[makomk]

Sorry Bitsyncom, but you are completely full of shit.  Completely.  You have repeatedly stated that it's "impossible" to do things, yet somehow BFL manages to do the "imposisble."

I notice that you carefully avoid saying that he's actually wrong here, presumably because you know he isn't - there's no way for you to go from wirebonded QFN to flip-chip BGA without taping out again.

[nathanrees19]

BitSyncom stated that BFL would not be ready as claimed. They weren't. See the posting on BFL forums for that.

Oh come on. BFL said BFL wouldn't be hashing at CES.

[nathanrees19]

p.s.
You are not the only one with 65nm simulations.

[nathanrees19]

When does a delay or the failure to meet expectations cross the line into a scam?

Never, since that usually comes from bad luck or incompetence.

Really now? Maybe I should announce we'll be shipping at our original shipping date of end of Feb, 2013 due to "bad luck"

??

You're not making sense...what's your point? You asked for opinions on when a delay can become a scam. I offered the opinion of "never" since a scam implies malice (which won't be present if the company really does intend to ship...), and you can't delay something that isn't coming. If you delayed right now to your original shipping date, I'd probably attribute that to bad luck, since your team seems pretty competent.

By the way, how come you have time to troll Josh? I thought you were so busy trying to ship that you couldn't update...

[MeSarah]

Let's then look at performance. Where is the line there? Does this mean Avalon can release a product with 50Gh/s and not be a scam?

Question:
How far does Avalon have to miss their stated performance before you request a full refund?

This is purpose of this thread

Historically BFL has only failed in every "impossible" task they have attempted, and till this date have no results.

@ BitSyncom sense your saying you haven't seen any results from BFL then this must mean you're prepared to show your results. If you do have any results to show. At this point you must have completed your production run and have begun burn in testing. Let's see a video of those units hashing. But we know you can't do that. At the same time you are looking for such proof from BFL.

BitSyncom don't blame 'bad luck' if you are unable to meet your stated shipment date because we know that it's just bad management from university students.

[BitSyncom]

By the way, how come you have time to troll Josh? I thought you were so busy trying to ship that you couldn't update...

I have no time to "troll" unlike majority of people on this forum who don't even have the knowledge to make a educated guess when it comes to ASIC production where statements are made purely based on baseless assumptions.

See below for example:

@ BitSyncom sense your saying you haven't seen any results from BFL then this must me your prepared to show your results. If your do have any results to show. At this point you must have completed your production run and have begun burn in testing. Let's see a video of those units hashing. But we know you can't do that. At the same time you are looking for such proof from BFL.

BitSyncom don't blame 'bad luck' if you are unable to meet your stated shipment date because we know that it's just bad management from university students.

I'm just calling on their lies made in the past now have surfaced like how they mentioned to switch QFN to BGA packaging in December whilst saying they are supposedly waiting a fuzzy date from the foundry on when the chip is coming around the same time, anyone with IC knowledge can tell you this is impossible. I'm not looking for any proofs because there isn't any.

[JesterOfTortuga]

thatjusthappened.jpg