Avalon is (unfortunately) a scam. Here is why.

[crazyates]

Though I'm pleased things have taken a turn for the better, Avalon was behaving in a very unprofessional manner and they had the criticism coming IMO.

Was? Past tense? I was relieved when they postponed the 2nd batch orders. They literally have 1 unit in customer's hands. One. Uno. Lets see a majority of those 300 units shipped, and then talk about a 2nd batch.

Interesting. By that logic BFL should immediately suspend new orders until they have SOMETHING shipped.

ONE >>>>>> ZERO

Well first, BFL isn't doing things in batches like Avalon is. And even if they were, and had only shipped one unit, I'd be saying the same thing. Until there is a large percentage of purchased units in customer's hands, why are they actively pursuing more sales?

[creativex]

Though I'm pleased things have taken a turn for the better, Avalon was behaving in a very unprofessional manner and they had the criticism coming IMO.

Was? Past tense? I was relieved when they postponed the 2nd batch orders. They literally have 1 unit in customer's hands. One. Uno. Lets see a majority of those 300 units shipped, and then talk about a 2nd batch.

Interesting. By that logic BFL should immediately suspend new orders until they have SOMETHING shipped.

ONE >>>>>> ZERO

Well first, BFL isn't doing things in batches like Avalon is. And even if they were, and had only shipped one unit, I'd be saying the same thing. Until there is a large percentage of purchased units in customer's hands, why are they actively pursuing more sales?

WHAT?

Just because BFL is a bottomless batch 1 pit makes it okay for them to soak up millions in pre-orders over the course of EIGHT MONTHS without delivering anything but t-shirts and coffee mugs, but bad on Avalon for opening a 2nd batch(900 units total) whilst only having confirmed shipping one working ASIC unit?

Blatantly double standard much?

[mrb]

- "the whole forum was sure this was a scam" -> On the contrary, if you read the forums carefully you will find a very small number of critics with no credibility, and/or a history of trolling, making a lot of posts, but there is a much larger number of supporters (older accounts with more credence) who only defend ASIC vendors occasionally. The mere fact that BFL has so many preorders proves the large number of believers/supporters (and yes some of these customers in line are here just for the quick money and have no idea of the risks) - this is one of the reasons I say you are misinformed, because you failed to distinguish the general opinion of the forum members - but this is not your fault - it takes a lot of time to sift through the posts to filter out who can be trusted, who has the credentials, what information is important, etc

Actually it's been the opposite in this case. A number of veterans here cast doubt over Avalon as a result of their sudden "BFL like" behavior, which is a lot more than I can say about the nonsense that surrounded BFL for quite some time. Avalon started out with some transparency, but when it came time to package and ship they suddenly went secretive. That's never usually a good sign, and resulted in quite a bit of reasonable unease. It was the "newbie" accounts that kept popping up noting Avalon wasn't a scam and that we were overreacting.

Given the information (or lack thereof) we had available to us, I found the unease and pessimistic speculation justified, if not warranted. People can only make informed decisions with information...take that away and we're left with our imaginations.

 Well, what can I say... you were wrong too about interpreting the forum's general opinion. "The number of veterans" who casted doubt about Avalon were almost all posters with no credibitily, no trust, and a history of trolling and making wrong guesses. Just because someone is a veteran (has a high post count) does not mean he can be trusted.

I challenge you to list 5 trusted veterans who expressed a high certainty that Avalon was a scam -> you will not find any.

That's a skill you have to learn on a forum like this: determining who can be trusted in what they say/think vs. who is uninformed. A good starting point is to look at how dark the poster's "ignore" link is (the darker = the more persons chose to ignore him because what he says is not valuable).

[Korbman]

I challenge you to list 5 trusted veterans who expressed a high certainty that Avalon was a scam -> you will not find any.

You're exactly right, I won't find any "trusted veterans" based on your criteria of "high certainty". As you may have missed, I believe I phrased it like this:

A number of veterans here cast doubt over Avalon as a result of their sudden "BFL like" behavior [...]

You seem to be under the impression that this particular phrase is a synonym for "high certainty", which is far from the case and a probable cause for your confusion.

[crazyates]

Though I'm pleased things have taken a turn for the better, Avalon was behaving in a very unprofessional manner and they had the criticism coming IMO.

Was? Past tense? I was relieved when they postponed the 2nd batch orders. They literally have 1 unit in customer's hands. One. Uno. Lets see a majority of those 300 units shipped, and then talk about a 2nd batch.

Interesting. By that logic BFL should immediately suspend new orders until they have SOMETHING shipped.

ONE >>>>>> ZERO

Well first, BFL isn't doing things in batches like Avalon is. And even if they were, and had only shipped one unit, I'd be saying the same thing. Until there is a large percentage of purchased units in customer's hands, why are they actively pursuing more sales?

WHAT?

Just because BFL is a bottomless batch 1 pit makes it okay for them to soak up millions in pre-orders over the course of EIGHT MONTHS without delivering anything but t-shirts and coffee mugs, but bad on Avalon for opening a 2nd batch(900 units total) whilst only having confirmed shipping one working ASIC unit?

Blatantly double standard much?

I can see how it can sound hypocritical, but that's not the way I intended that to sound.

BFL is continuously accepting pre-orders, even tho they haven't shipped yet, I get that. However, Josh's interactions here and on the BFL forums have been large in response to current customers (and trolls, but we won't go there). I haven't seen them actively trying to get new customers. In fact, Josh has said that when their Single do ship, the product will speak for itself.

But then we get Avalon, who was supposed to be opening pre-orders for Batch 2, with some very severe stipulations: 1) They had only shipped 1 product to 1 customer. 2) BTC only (aka no cc chargebacks). 3) No refunds, under any circumstance. Those 3 just made it sound a lil fishy, and I was glad when they postponed. Postponing gives #1 time to hopefully fix itself, and maybe they'd consider #2, or at the very least #3.

[king_pin]

My personal opinion is that:

Jeff is in on the AVALON scam too.

He mysteriously receives it in the last moment, so he doesn't have time to make a proper review.
NOW, 24 hours after he received it, all he posts 6 real photos and some shit a kid can do with Photoshop, when he knows there are close to a million $$$ at stake.

[cedivad]

My personal opinion is that:

Jeff is in on the AVALON scam too.

He mysteriously receives it in the last moment, so he doesn't have time to make a proper review.
NOW, 24 hours after he received it, all he posts 6 real photos and some shit a kid can do with Photoshop, when he knows there are close to a million $$$ at stake.

Well, yes, why not? After all, we have only seen a single unit. Over 300, one.

BUT.

What's the freaking sense in this to delay the second batch preorder? They could be already between the 2 tropics by now if they didn't stopped the preorder. So, i don't agree this time.

[creativex]

Though I'm pleased things have taken a turn for the better, Avalon was behaving in a very unprofessional manner and they had the criticism coming IMO.

Was? Past tense? I was relieved when they postponed the 2nd batch orders. They literally have 1 unit in customer's hands. One. Uno. Lets see a majority of those 300 units shipped, and then talk about a 2nd batch.

Interesting. By that logic BFL should immediately suspend new orders until they have SOMETHING shipped.

ONE >>>>>> ZERO

Well first, BFL isn't doing things in batches like Avalon is. And even if they were, and had only shipped one unit, I'd be saying the same thing. Until there is a large percentage of purchased units in customer's hands, why are they actively pursuing more sales?

WHAT?

Just because BFL is a bottomless batch 1 pit makes it okay for them to soak up millions in pre-orders over the course of EIGHT MONTHS without delivering anything but t-shirts and coffee mugs, but bad on Avalon for opening a 2nd batch(900 units total) whilst only having confirmed shipping one working ASIC unit?

Blatantly double standard much?

I can see how it can sound hypocritical, but that's not the way I intended that to sound.

BFL is continuously accepting pre-orders, even tho they haven't shipped yet, I get that. However, Josh's interactions here and on the BFL forums have been large in response to current customers (and trolls, but we won't go there). I haven't seen them actively trying to get new customers. In fact, Josh has said that when their Single do ship, the product will speak for itself.

But then we get Avalon, who was supposed to be opening pre-orders for Batch 2, with some very severe stipulations: 1) They had only shipped 1 product to 1 customer. 2) BTC only (aka no cc chargebacks). 3) No refunds, under any circumstance. Those 3 just made it sound a lil fishy, and I was glad when they postponed. Postponing gives #1 time to hopefully fix itself, and maybe they'd consider #2, or at the very least #3.

Just because Josh defines nearly everyone that finds fault with BFL as a troll doesn't make it so, regardless how much he blows on advertising. Yes advertising. Just how much *IS* BFL spending to advertise their vaporware before they've shipped anything at all? Wanna bet it's several times what Avalon is spending? ...this despite the fact that Avalon has shipped an ASIC product and BFL well...they do have some boxed up fans, though they're not for sale yet. I don't see a lot of Avalon signatures bought off either...BFL on the other hand...

CES? How much was spent for BFL to advertise their non-shipping ASIC products there? Why do they keep pumping the ad budget when they have as many shipping ASICs as I do? Let's at least apply the same standards.

I'm also not pleased with Avalon's no refund BTC only policies.

[crazyates]

Just because Josh defines nearly everyone that finds fault with BFL as a troll doesn't make it so, regardless how much he blows on advertising.

I'm also not pleased with Avalon's no refund BTC only policies.

No I'm not saying everyone who has valid concerns about BFL is a troll. I'm saying you take yourself, PL, and smoothie out of the BFL thread, and it wouldn't have had to be split by the mods and started over. That's what I consider trolling.

[creativex]

Right. Open discussion is fine as long as it's favorable to companies that advertise on bitcointalk.org. Check.

I'd have avoided the part about BFL still advertising like mad without shipping anything if I were you too btw. What kin ya say? Now there's some sketchy business tactics.

[crazyearner]

My personal opinion is that:

Jeff is in on the AVALON scam too.

He mysteriously receives it in the last moment, so he doesn't have time to make a proper review.
NOW, 24 hours after he received it, all he posts 6 real photos and some shit a kid can do with Photoshop, when he knows there are close to a million $$$ at stake.

Do you even read or even talk in irc chat with him posting status the thing is real and not doctored Photoshop images. He posted starts connected to slush pool mining and the intire mining army on their confirmed his status and connection and detials of it.

GO troll somewhere else or learn to read up on posts, threads, chats and facts before shouting FAKE.The product is real. However remains to be said who else actually has one and the location to 299 more.

Even I know this could well be a ta-ticket to get others to buy into it and still be a scam. 1 unit is proof that hardware can be manufactured to make such items. But the main question is whee are the videos, other customers that bought where are they with theirs. They are still indeed a lot of questions unanswered however time will tell.

If customers start popping up and making videos and sending their proof in that they have then am all buy buy but, but until theirs more out their and solid proof of 300 actually running around and not just 1 box then I will up hold my verdict until theirs more proof. 1 BOX AND DEVELOPED ON BTC IS FAVORITISM MUCH

[Unacceptable]

Right. Open discussion is fine as long as it's favorable to companies that advertise on bitcointalk.org. Check.

I'd have avoided the part about BFL still advertising like mad without shipping anything if I were you too btw. What kin ya say? Now there's some sketchy business tactics.

But....BFL hasn't said "Units have shipped!!!",so we all know they are still working on them & no one is expecting delivery.Avalon customers were told "We're shipping!!!" & only 1 has recieved a unit.Are there more in transit   No one knows.....................Thats the main beef,no info or communication about the other 298 units (2 were shipped from Avalon per thier post).

[king_pin]

I know we have no reason to doubt him accept he is human!
Now honestly wouldn't you lie if they offered you lets say 100 000$ or 10% of the whole scam?
And dude u are really simple if you believe things that a people say on irc, forums etc. if there are money involved.

[repentance]

I know we have no reason to doubt him accept he is human!
Now honestly wouldn't you lie if they offered you lets say 100 000$ or 10% of the whole scam?
And dude u are really simple if you believe things that a people say on irc, forums etc. if there are money involved.

Stop spamming the same post in every Avalon thread.  If you weren't so busy spamming you'd know that Bitcoin Foundation has posted a video of their Avalon unit in action.

Thats the main beef,no info or communication about the other 298 units (2 were shipped from Avalon per thier post).

This might change now.  It looks like the delivery of the first two units was intended to coincide with Yifu's 23rd birthday (Jeff already posted that he wasn't meant to get his yesterday) and the announcement that Batch 2 units will have room for 6 boards. 

[king_pin]

Stop spamming the same post in every Avalon thread.  If you weren't so busy spamming you'd know that Bitcoin Foundation has posted a video of their Avalon unit in action.

Please post a link with the video, I can't find it.  

WoW I found it - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mk_c3QE_1aE
You call this a video
Well it is better than nothing, I agree, might convince me soon

[repentance]

Please post a link with the video, I can't find it. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mk_c3QE_1aE&feature=youtu.be

[FreeMoney]

If it is a scam it's a really really good one.

[dree12]

If it is a scam it's a really really good one.

They had to get Bitcoin Foundation into the scam. So that's the entire core developer team, BitInstant, Mt. Gox, and a whole lot more. Wow.

[creativex]

Right. Open discussion is fine as long as it's favorable to companies that advertise on bitcointalk.org. Check.

I'd have avoided the part about BFL still advertising like mad without shipping anything if I were you too btw. What kin ya say? Now there's some sketchy business tactics.

But....BFL hasn't said "Units have shipped!!!",so we all know they are still working on them & no one is expecting delivery.Avalon customers were told "We're shipping!!!" & only 1 has recieved a unit.Are there more in transit   No one knows.....................Thats the main beef,no info or communication about the other 298 units (2 were shipped from Avalon per thier post).

Correct. The appropriate BFLism is "We've scheduled shipments for blah blah" because no one can prove you haven't scheduled a shipment.

[bce]

Stop spamming the same post in every Avalon thread.  If you weren't so busy spamming you'd know that Bitcoin Foundation has posted a video of their Avalon unit in action.

Please post a link with the video, I can't find it.  

WoW I found it - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mk_c3QE_1aE
You call this a video
Well it is better than nothing, I agree, might convince me soon

Kingpin is in on it!