Avalon is (unfortunately) a scam. Here is why.

[cedivad]

I spent a lot of time during the last days (or weeks) on the forums considering a big investment on the Avalon ASIC. I tough that even if my english is far from perfect, i should have opened this thread explaining my reasons to people that didn't have the time to spend here as i did.

1) Jeff will not receive its order before the batch starts selling
If you pay 400$ to ship something (rumors are that the custom agent was corrupted to let the Avalon unit pass trough) you get a tracking number. God, i just spent 400$ to ship something, i need to know where it is in real time. I need to know when it will arrive. If the parcel was to arrive before the second batch, Avalon would know it and would be confident about it. They are instead suggesting you that hey, you might lose your place on the second batch if you wait for Jeff.

2) They need to order components before this weekend because they cleaned the market out of resistors and capacitors
Hell, yes. We need components! You know, this stuff is hard to find and it takes 4 week to have it. What kind of components? Sci-Fiction stuff? No, resistors. RESISTORS! Once that Avalon discovered the community is smart enough to realize that you can't run out of resistors in China, they changed the supposed-missing components to mosfets and "inductor". People that know their stuff better than i do thinks that the only pratical use for mosfets in the Avalon is to build a custom PSU. Something that doesn't make any sense. You have problems building the Avalon, you don't need to get things worse house-producing a PSU.
They could have said that they need to have some other chips from the FAB and that the fab will work during the CNY (i don't think that intel closes its productions line on their multi billion dollars fabs during the holidays). That would have made sense to me.

3) They will not publish a video of the Avalon mining before the batch starts selling
The original plan was to post it before the end of the 2012. No one saw it. It simply dosen't exist. There is no reasons not to show a little video of the Avalon mining if it does exist. This recalls me Tom when he didn't want to post pictures of the chips he should own.

4) They will not try to smash the network for a small period with their 100 ASIC to prove that they are out there
Just turn them on for 2 hours, we would notice. They didn't do this. They will not.

5)

Did they told you (chinese customers) the reason of the delay in shipping? It cannot be customs there.

No, I personally have heard no Chinese customers receiving their products. There was no explanation in this post.

I will change my idea if:
1) There is a video of the Avalon mining that convinces me and my standards
2) Jeff receives the Avalon at least 6 hours before the second batch, so that he has the time to show us something.

The BS about keeping the competition at the obscure of the fabulous progresses the Avalon team did in the dark field of the ASICs doesn't hold anymore.

I hope my thread to be appreciated. By no reasons i want to troll. I wanted to be a customer.

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[Garr255]

Thanks for pointing these things out. I want to see the Avalon team's counter-argument for this.

[Beepbop]

I think they've made clear that their counter-argument is going to be coming in a box with fans and ASICs in it. I'm just getting the popcorn. Being at the cutting edge of mining is a high-risk venture.

[creativex]

Taking a risk to be at the cutting edge is not a problem. They're asking everyone to discount what they've said previously and suspend their own common sense...this is a problem. None of this passes the smell test, but I doubt they'll have much trouble finding 500 people to send them $1500.

[DeathAndTaxes]

Well I don't know if it is a scam or not (and don't really care) but I am sure all ASIC and FPGA boards have a DC to DC PSU.

No not the 120VAC -> 12VDC ATX PSU but the board level PSU that converts that 12VDC supplied by the ATX power supply to xVDC used by the board level components.  Nothing in the computer world actually runs at 12V so the boards need to step down the voltage supplied by ATX PSU.  Unlike ATX AC->DC PSU there is no one size fits all because the amount of current, regulation, and voltage is going to vary from component to component.  Your motherboard (and video cards) have a DC to DC PSU for this exact reason.  

[tigereye]

I can understand them not posting a tracking number.

For most carriers, the tracking number shows the destination of the shipment. Posting the tracking number would violate Jeff's privacy.
If anyone should post the tracking number, it's Jeff, but to be honest if I were in his position I would not post this number.

What I *MIGHT* do is make a post saying "I'm Jeff, I've received the tracking number and I'm tracking the package. It sure seems like SOMETHING is on its way to me."

However even doing this would involve himself in the politics/drama/furor on this forum about Avalon.
As if he doesn't have enough politicking with his role as dev and his appearances on vlogs to answer questions about Bitcoin...

One thing I *CAN* say about Avalon...
They have spent practically $0 on marketing, yet everyone in our community is talking about their product. That is extremely successful if you ask me.
They're using one of the best rules in advertising: less is more.

[cedivad]

I can understand them not posting a tracking number.

I did not asked for this.
If they had a tracking number, they would know whatever or not Jeff will receive the stuff by the 31. They do not.

Well I don't know if it is a scam or not (and don't really care) but I am sure all ASIC and FPGA boards have custom PSU.

Ok, -1.

[Vicus]

Question to forum administration: maybe this is right moment to ask Avalon stuff to publish proof of Avalon ASIC existance or shut down any (possible) scam activity?
I will try to explain myself.
BitSyncom used this forum to advertise its product, got preorders on this forum, used forum to keep (or not) customers informed about order status... But more than one week after we didn't saw any evidence that product were shipped... even more: existed. All questions about promised(!!!)  source code of modified cgminer, iso with OS image for device, video proof, shipment choice form, tracking number for jgazik and more - all this were TOTALY IGNORED. Now Avalon is starting new thread with batch #2 announced and look what they promise: no proof, no moneyback. One thing they promise: dates dates dates.
So, all I said is lead us to one conclusion: POSSIBLE SCAM! (Personaly I don't want it to be scam, as I am first batch customer). And now is good time to take sme preventive actions against possible scam and minimise possible damage to your forum users? I don't think that administration of this forum want to be anyhow related to scam?

[creativex]

If anyone should post the tracking number, it's Jeff, but to be honest if I were in his position I would not post this number.

What I *MIGHT* do is make a post saying "I'm Jeff, I've received the tracking number and I'm tracking the package. It sure seems like SOMETHING is on its way to me."

Last I heard he(Jeff) had specifically said he had NOT received any tracking information, though Avalon claims to have spent $400 to get the package shipped. I'm having trouble reconciling these statements.

[wormbog]

All Avalon has shown is that they're doing a poor job with their PR. If they're selling their ASICs faster than they can (supposedly) make them, why should they care? Why waste time trying to get even more orders than they can handle?

I thought BFL was an obvious scam before they released their first products. It turned out they just did a terrible job of managing their public image, a problem they still have today. It sure didn't impact their sales though. When you've got a revolutionary product you can afford to ignore your detractors.

[MonsterZero]

If anyone should post the tracking number, it's Jeff, but to be honest if I were in his position I would not post this number.

What I *MIGHT* do is make a post saying "I'm Jeff, I've received the tracking number and I'm tracking the package. It sure seems like SOMETHING is on its way to me."

Last I heard he(Jeff) had specifically said he had NOT received any tracking information, though Avalon claims to have spent $400 to get the package shipped. I'm having trouble reconciling these statements.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=541;sa=showPosts

Here's his latest posting, as of the 25th of January he had not received trakcing info.  He seems the type to me to at least tell us he did receive tracking info.  It would go a long way, I don't need to follow his package but him saying he at least received info would alleviate... something.  (still mgiht be a brick haha (or 4 looking at that case))

[deadweasel]

Question to forum administration: maybe this is right moment to ask Avalon stuff to publish proof of Avalon ASIC existance?
I will try to explain myself.
BitSyncom used this forum to advertise its product, got preorders on this forum, used forum to keep (or not) customers informed about order status... But more than one week after we didn't saw any evidence that product were shipped... even more: existed. All questions about promised(!!!)  source code of modified cgminer, iso with OS image for device, video proof, shipment choice form, tracking number for jgazik and more - all this were TOTALY IGNORED. Now Avalon is starting new thread with batch #2 announced and look what they promise: no proof, no moneyback. One thing they promise: dates dates dates.
So, all I said is lead us to one conclusion: POSSIBLE SCAM! (Personaly I don't want it to be scam, as I am first batch customer). And now is good time to take sme preventive actions against possible scam and minimise possible damage to your forum users? I don't think that administration of this forum want to be anyhow related to scam?

Actually, the correct time to take preventative measure is BEFORE you decide to send your BTCs somewhere.  It is not this forums responsibility to verify things you should have done already.

[2112]

People that know their stuff better than i do thinks that the only pratical use for mosfets in the Avalon is to build a custom PSU. Something that doesn't make any sense. You have problems building the Avalon, you don't need to get things worse house-producing a PSU.

It is "custom VRM" not "custom PSU". Technically it is almost the same thing, but PSU produces 12V,5V & 3.3V, and VRM further reduces it down to 1.somethingV. Nothing out of ordinary.

[DeathAndTaxes]

Question to forum administration: maybe this is right moment to ask Avalon stuff to publish proof of Avalon ASIC existance or shut down any (possible) scam activity?
I will try to explain myself.
BitSyncom used this forum to advertise its product, got preorders on this forum, used forum to keep (or not) customers informed about order status... But more than one week after we didn't saw any evidence that product were shipped... even more: existed. All questions about promised(!!!)  source code of modified cgminer, iso with OS image for device, video proof, shipment choice form, tracking number for jgazik and more - all this were TOTALY IGNORED. Now Avalon is starting new thread with batch #2 announced and look what they promise: no proof, no moneyback. One thing they promise: dates dates dates.
So, all I said is lead us to one conclusion: POSSIBLE SCAM! (Personaly I don't want it to be scam, as I am first batch customer). And now is good time to take sme preventive actions against possible scam and minimise possible damage to your forum users? I don't think that administration of this forum want to be anyhow related to scam?

The same forum which allowed Pirate to run a painfully obvious ponzi scheme for months?

Good or bad the forum takes a hands of approach.  If you think it is a scam then don't buy one.  Pretty simple concept.  Personal responsibility and all that.  You are the keeper of your coins.  If you do something stupid then you may lose them and never get them back.  Of course if it is a scam I am sure many will ignore that chasing the promise of turning x BTC into 10x BTC by getting an ASIC first and in the process turn it into 0 BTC.  Note: I am not saying Avalon is or isn't a scam.  I don't really care, won't be buying one either way.

[Vicus]

Actually, the correct time to take preventative measure is BEFORE you decide to send your BTCs somewhere.  It is not this forums responsibility to verify things you should have done already.

The same forum which allowed Pirate to run a painfully obvious ponzi scheme for months?

Good or bad the forum takes a hands of approach.  If you think it is a scam then don't buy one.  Pretty simple concept.  Personal responsibility and all that.  You are the keeper of your coins.  If you do something stupid then you may lose them and never get them back.

Where I said that I regret for being involved to possible scam? I'm have enough salary to make risky investments.
I heard something about Pirate, but don't know details. Maybe there was no man who point administration sight to scam?

[Phinnaeus Gage]

I just started reading the other thread, and had to stop not even midway through the first post before commenting. Took my piss, got my coffee, got my smokes, now off to see if I can get through the rest of the first post without bursting a blood vessel.

Madness! (last couple seconds)

[jgarzik]

No shipping/tracking information has been sent to me, privately or publicly, as of this writing.

No private communications since Jan 20.

Forum readers know as much as I know, at this point.

For the record, at this time, I do not think Avalon or BFL are scams.

[MonsterZero]

No shipping/tracking information has been sent to me, privately or publicly, as of this writing.

No private communications since Jan 20.

Forum readers know as much as I know, at this point.

For the record, at this time, I do not think Avalon or BFL are scams.

Thanks for the update Jeff!

[Fuzzy]

No shipping/tracking information has been sent to me, privately or publicly, as of this writing.

No private communications since Jan 20.

Forum readers know as much as I know, at this point.

For the record, at this time, I do not think Avalon or BFL are scams.

Have I been browsing the wrong forum or something?  

[Phinnaeus Gage]

No shipping/tracking information has been sent to me, privately or publicly, as of this writing.

No private communications since Jan 20.

Forum readers know as much as I know, at this point.

For the record, at this time, I do not think Avalon or BFL are scams.

Have I been browsing the wrong forum of something? 

I, too, trust Jeff, and was about to post the following via quoting the post above the one I did quote, for this one's better.

Just got to post #4 and opted to comment here than pollute the (insert adjective here) thread.

I would consider ordering some more if my current order was not still listed as "CANCELLED" after 3 weeks of contacting Avalon.  Even BFL is more responsive.

I thought when I responded in the Avalon Shipped thread it was pretty clear I can't change any of the stats until I get back into NYC? but all the issues checks out since there was data stored, but callbacks were never made.

His computer will only work in NYC? This blows my mind!

[cedivad]

His computer will only work in NYC? This blows my mind!

He either checks the connecting ip or has the certificates on a pc there.

[HorseRider]

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=139704.msg1488175#msg1488175

[CoinHoarder]

There is no evidence whether BFL or Avalon are scams.

They both could be, they both could not be.

But, I don't agree with throwing one under the bus for that reason without solid evidence.

Why can't we wait a week to see if anyone receives an ASIC before making these types of threads?

[cedivad]

Why can't we wait a week to see if anyone receives an ASIC before making these types of threads?

Because on thursday they will get 700 * 1500$ worth of preorders.

[lucif]

There is no evidence whether BFL or Avalon are scams.

They both could be, they both could not be.

But, I don't agree with throwing one under the bus for that reason without solid evidence.

Why can't we wait a week to see if anyone receives an ASIC before making these types of threads?

They ask money. They must proove they are not scammers. Presumption of innocence doesnt work here.

[gmaxwell]

Question to forum administration: maybe this is right moment to ask Avalon stuff to publish proof of Avalon ASIC existance or shut down any (possible) scam activity?
I will try to explain myself.

Generally the forum does not play the scam hunting game. It could never do as good a job protecting you as the lump of great matter between your ears— but if it does a half-assed job perhaps you'll think you're safe when you're really not.  Stuff usually only gets binned/marked as a scam when its so obvious that the scam attempt amounts to spam or when it's generally considered as proven.  Buyer beware.

BitSyncom used this forum to advertise its product, got preorders on this forum, used forum to keep (or not) customers informed about order status... But more than one week after we didn't saw any evidence that product were shipped... even more: existed.

There actually exists more evidence than they are making public, I don't really understand their PR strategy.   It seems to me that the particular approach they are taking will bias the costs and rewards to the more irrational risk takers in the community— and I don't know that its a good thing. But they did point to the extreme time costs of dealing with the public, and I certainly see the point there.

Personally, based on what I know, I think it is unlikely to be a scam. But it doesn't need to be a scam to have problems and there are clearly some problems— if nothing else then in the shipping and funding of the next batch. Keep in mind that I'm a batch #1 customer too, so I may be a victim of a bit of hopeful thinking. At the same time: I have never been scammed, I have correctly identified and avoided many scams in the Bitcoin community, and I'm saying this even though Avalon hasn't been responding to my emails in the past week  (Unfortunately their shipping delays have put their shipping right on top of a cross country move for me,  and the complete uncertainty with respect to shipping times means I can't schedule my flights to be around to receive the hardware— so I'm likely going to have to pay someone to camp out at my old address until the parcels arrive).

I will not, however, be placing a second batch order— but I don't know how much of this is because "unlikely" isn't good enough for my personal scam tolerance vs the fact that my first batch order satisfied my current interest in 110nm ASIC miners. Probably more the latter— as I'd probably consider loaning money to them

[CoinHoarder]

So... don't pre-order from Batch #2 until there is evidence of working devices.

That is my plan at least... no one HAS to order anything...

[Fuzzy]

So... don't pre-order from Batch #2 until there is evidence of working devices.

That is my plan at least... no one HAS to order anything...

Although I must say: life isn't about "making sure" but rather "enduring the uncertainty".

 

[creativex]

You know they'll fill that 2nd batch in hours right? Even with this total PR fail...

[HorseRider]

There actually exists more evidence than they are making public, I don't really understand their PR strategy.

gmaxwell, are you saying that you have seen any pictures or videos that you think are evidence, which are not public?

[gmaxwell]

There actually exists more evidence than they are making public, I don't really understand their PR strategy.

gmaxwell, are you saying that you have seen any pictures or videos that you think are evidence, which are not public?

I can imagine a sophisticated scam where carefully constructed "leaks" are used to dupe trustworthy™ people into 'laundering' weak evidence in order make it seem stronger— If I tell you I've seen photos, some people will believe me more than _any_ photo they could have possibly been shown, and I may have missed some glaring flaw in the evidence that would have been discovered had it been made public... and while— as mentioned— I don't think Avalon is scamming here, it occurs to me that to avoid contributing to this kind of game in the future I ought to act consistently:  If Avalon wants the benefit of people confirming that there is more evidence, then they should make it public.

So, I'll leave it at: Scam or not, they could easily provide lots of additional information. Fans call everything proven here, haters call everything disproven here. This is one of the reasons that 'evidence' is not all that good protection against scams in this sort of thing. Considering the kind of funds involved even from batch#1 surely a scammer could go buy a crate of fans, throw them on a bench, and call it an assembly line. The reason I think they should post more and are confused that they aren't isn't because I think it will protect anyone from getting ripped off— but simply because it's good PR that will help them collect more money.

[HorseRider]

@gmaxwell, I think we understood perfectly, thank you.

[fcmatt]

Or the mods could simply message them and say show our community more proof or we will delete your threads as there have been too many
scams around here and we wish to protect our users in the only way we can.

The people with the money normally have all the leverage. But in this goofy community it seems like the sales person who promises something
has all the power. I guess greed is the reason things are upside down around here.

[gmaxwell]

Or the mods could simply message them and say show our community more proof or we will delete your threads as there have been too many
scams around here and we wish to protect our users in the only way we can.

It couldn't be done transparently without increasing false confidence in some cases. It can't be done in secret without turning the forum into a potential extortion racket (or at least subjecting it to credible allegations that it is one).  You do not want either of these outcomes.

Fortunately, centralized authority is not the only way to get things done. Prospective customers could put funds in escrow (even a trustless blockchain escrow) and make transparency demands— "You get our money only if you do X, Y, and Z and by putting funds in this escrow we prove that we're not trolls making demands to waste your time or upset your business".  This would avoid the above pitfalls.

The biggest problem I see with it is that I can't think of an X, Y, or Z that would materially reduce risks — except getting working units in the hands of some trusted third party and they claim to already have that in motion— given that they need the funds upfront to fund their production. A lesser issue is that if the community wanted to do it they'd have to come to a consensus on the terms very quickly.  If people could come up with and agree on some terms (that I don't think are insane), I'd be willing to act as a signer on an escrow for this.

[dooferorg]

I guess greed is the reason things are upside down around here.

+1

Sure is.

[rjbtc]

I'm pretty new at this, but they did test out the units that shipped, right? Why not just go ahead and make a video of that happening? I'm sure there would still be people calling it a fake, but at least there would be something.  In all honesty, with the amount of money involved here I'd just personally deliver a few working units to trusted community members and let word of mouth do the rest.

[fcmatt]

I'm pretty new at this, but they did test out the units that shipped, right? Why not just go ahead and make a video of that happening? I'm sure there would still be people calling it a fake, but at least there would be something.  In all honesty, with the amount of money involved here I'd just personally deliver a few working units to trusted community members and let word of mouth do the rest.

The only reasonable explanation is that they cannot or just like being drama queens. your choice.

[wndrbr3d]

Avalon has me concerned from a business standpoint in addition to it sounding a little like a Ponzi scheme at this point.

Here are my thoughts:

- They PROBABLY have SOME units ready to ship as they're confident that they'll get a couple (to date, two) out to "testers" so they can post their reviews.

- My thoughts about them opening up round #2 pre-orders has me concerned that they're running out of money from the initial round of pre-orders and need additional capital to meet their goals

- The fact that they're ONLY using BTC this time around concerns me because it's not trackable and it seems like they're gambling that the price of BTC will continue to go up

- "No Refunds" sounds like the final blow as to their having business issues because what they're essentially saying is that they need to use the capital to pay bills and once you pay, money is gone.

- The network hash rate would lead me to believe that there are no ASIC's currently even operational (unless they're testing on a private chain, which would be weird because they COULD make some money off their testing)

I have concerns for those who still have their money with Avalon, or with any ASIC manufacturer in general. I think greed got the best of people. SURE, at current difficulties and network hash rate if you're THE FIRST on the network with an ASIC you'll probably stand to make good money... but after more ASIC's spin up, your profits should start dropping sharply. But perhaps there's another thread on this.

All I can say is, good luck to anyone who invested thousands of their hard earned dollars on this. It's quite the gamble on your part!

[fcmatt]

The only reasonable explanation is that they cannot or just like being drama queens. your choice.

Cannot is not a reasonable explanation. I can make a demo video even though I have nothing.

We have been through this before.

Setup the asic unit. power it up. login. start the software. create a video showing things.
create account at a mining pool. point asic device at it. get pool owner to agree that is actual mining on their pool. they are easy to contact.
 
setup a few more of these asics devices and point at the same account. before you know it you have 100s and 100s
of gigahashes mining away and you show screen shots or what have you.

So, do you know of someone who has enough gpus around to fake that sorta test? ha. i don't.

[nbtcminer]

Avalon has me concerned from a business standpoint in addition to it sounding a little like a Ponzi scheme at this point.

Here are my thoughts:

- They PROBABLY have SOME units ready to ship as they're confident that they'll get a couple (to date, two) out to "testers" so they can post their reviews.

- My thoughts about them opening up round #2 pre-orders has me concerned that they're running out of money from the initial round of pre-orders and need additional capital to meet their goals

- The fact that they're ONLY using BTC this time around concerns me because it's not trackable and it seems like they're gambling that the price of BTC will continue to go up

- "No Refunds" sounds like the final blow as to their having business issues because what they're essentially saying is that they need to use the capital to pay bills and once you pay, money is gone.

- The network hash rate would lead me to believe that there are no ASIC's currently even operational (unless they're testing on a private chain, which would be weird because they COULD make some money off their testing)

I have concerns for those who still have their money with Avalon, or with any ASIC manufacturer in general. I think greed got the best of people. SURE, at current difficulties and network hash rate if you're THE FIRST on the network with an ASIC you'll probably stand to make good money... but after more ASIC's spin up, your profits should start dropping sharply. But perhaps there's another thread on this.

All I can say is, good luck to anyone who invested thousands of their hard earned dollars on this. It's quite the gamble on your part!

I think we're all saying the same thing; this new "batch #2" stinks of unspoken problems. As gmaxwell said, anyone could make up a demo video; its a mystery as to why team Avalon won't do it themselves. They are more than capable of doing that and NGzhang with regards to his icarus / lancelot projects have been able to prove that his previous FPGA projects worked. Through BFL's admission, we already know that there are problems with QFN packaging and it appears from the little information that exists online from team Avalon (I feel like I'm saying something out of Pokemon lol..) is using QFN packaged chips. My guess is that they either rushed to ship out what products they could and purposefully didn't do a demo because they feared it would give BFL an edge (this part is really a mystery to me as both companies seem to already be cash / asset committed to their own designs already at this stage in the game).

[bce]

I feel that there is only one reason Avalon would be taking pre-orders on batch #2 before test review units will be received by jgarzik and someone else at Bitcoin Foundation.  Batch #2 couldn't be delayed for a week after reviews of first Avalon units, because _______________ .

In a couple of days, some people will give Avalon BTC with No refunds, No proof  

How could this not be a scam?

[Fjordbit]

I agree that on the outside, there's no evidence for BFL and Avalon being scams. But BFL is taking orders with Paypal, which has fraud protection, and Avalon is not. I, personally, am not comfortable with this offering.

[Phinnaeus Gage]

[BitSyncom]

I spent a lot of time during the last days (or weeks) on the forums considering a big investment on the Avalon ASIC. I tough that even if my english is far from perfect, i should have opened this thread explaining my reasons to people that didn't have the time to spend here as i did.

1) Jeff will not receive its order before the batch starts selling
If you pay 400$ to ship something (rumors are that the custom agent was corrupted to let the Avalon unit pass trough) you get a tracking number. God, i just spent 400$ to ship something, i need to know where it is in real time. I need to know when it will arrive. If the parcel was to arrive before the second batch, Avalon would know it and would be confident about it. They are instead suggesting you that hey, you might lose your place on the second batch if you wait for Jeff.

2) They need to order components before this weekend because they cleaned the market out of resistors and capacitors
Hell, yes. We need components! You know, this stuff is hard to find and it takes 4 week to have it. What kind of components? Sci-Fiction stuff? No, resistors. RESISTORS! Once that Avalon discovered the community is smart enough to realize that you can't run out of resistors in China, they changed the supposed-missing components to mosfets and "inductor". People that know their stuff better than i do thinks that the only pratical use for mosfets in the Avalon is to build a custom PSU. Something that doesn't make any sense. You have problems building the Avalon, you don't need to get things worse house-producing a PSU.
They could have said that they need to have some other chips from the FAB and that the fab will work during the CNY (i don't think that intel closes its productions line on their multi billion dollars fabs during the holidays). That would have made sense to me.

3) They will not publish a video of the Avalon mining before the batch starts selling
The original plan was to post it before the end of the 2012. No one saw it. It simply dosen't exist. There is no reasons not to show a little video of the Avalon mining if it does exist. This recalls me Tom when he didn't want to post pictures of the chips he should own.

4) They will not try to smash the network for a small period with their 100 ASIC to prove that they are out there
Just turn them on for 2 hours, we would notice. They didn't do this. They will not.

5)

Did they told you (chinese customers) the reason of the delay in shipping? It cannot be customs there.

No, I personally have heard no Chinese customers receiving their products. There was no explanation in this post.

I will change my idea if:
1) There is a video of the Avalon mining that convinces me and my standards
2) Jeff receives the Avalon at least 6 hours before the second batch, so that he has the time to show us something.

The BS about keeping the competition at the obscure of the fabulous progresses the Avalon team did in the dark field of the ASICs doesn't hold anymore.

I hope my thread to be appreciated. By no reasons i want to troll. I wanted to be a customer.

1. Actually, chance of Jeff getting the unit on Thursday is pretty good, but of course there is a chance he won't like I mentioned. if you choose to read that has Jeff will not receive the unit that's not my problem.

2. It is what it is. there's a mountain of shit to order.

3. Let me explain something to you, and everyone else here, all of the evidence, short from a review from a trustworthy third-party can be faked. I rest easy thinking Jeff and Bitcoin Foundation is a good choice.

4. Let me quote Inaba here: "You are a fucking idiot."

The BS about keeping the competition at the obscure of the fabulous progresses the Avalon team did in the dark field of the ASICs doesn't hold anymore.

Why the fuck not? I think I should have taken orders like BFL, screwed people with their backorders, then I'll not run into any of the problem I currently run into order parts and shit. Now some how I'm the greedy one? Get real. In addition, We at Avalon still do not believe BFL will ship a working product during the next month, Feb, 2013, so we are being cautious. Or consider this, a real bigshot IC company comes out and produces a 40nm, or lower Bitcoin Mining ASIC, and everyone will be kind of screwed. small batches allow the network to scale properly and minimize risk for both parties, the seller and customer. Whatever though, at this point I don't expect anyone to understand.

But speaking of greed, Let me give you a dose of potential reality you should actually worry about instead of this bullshit. Let me tell you a story about greed, there's a follow situation as described on a Chinese forum which refreshed what I thought was the rock bottom for evilness in the human heart.

The person, described Avalon as a scam, but not in the traditional sense where we did not make a working product but rather. We would upon "smoking day" chip success, issue a complete refund and start mining ourselves telling everyone the chip failed, then proceed to mining bitcoins at a rate about $40,000 a day.

tl;dr; It is much easier for Avalon to scam people than you thought. Clearly you have been worrying about the wrong things. Don't order from us if our terms is not good enough for you. Please, save us both the trouble.

[mtminer]

I spent a lot of time during the last days (or weeks) on the forums considering a big investment on the Avalon ASIC. I tough that even if my english is far from perfect, i should have opened this thread explaining my reasons to people that didn't have the time to spend here as i did.

1) Jeff will not receive its order before the batch starts selling
If you pay 400$ to ship something (rumors are that the custom agent was corrupted to let the Avalon unit pass trough) you get a tracking number. God, i just spent 400$ to ship something, i need to know where it is in real time. I need to know when it will arrive. If the parcel was to arrive before the second batch, Avalon would know it and would be confident about it. They are instead suggesting you that hey, you might lose your place on the second batch if you wait for Jeff.

2) They need to order components before this weekend because they cleaned the market out of resistors and capacitors
Hell, yes. We need components! You know, this stuff is hard to find and it takes 4 week to have it. What kind of components? Sci-Fiction stuff? No, resistors. RESISTORS! Once that Avalon discovered the community is smart enough to realize that you can't run out of resistors in China, they changed the supposed-missing components to mosfets and "inductor". People that know their stuff better than i do thinks that the only pratical use for mosfets in the Avalon is to build a custom PSU. Something that doesn't make any sense. You have problems building the Avalon, you don't need to get things worse house-producing a PSU.
They could have said that they need to have some other chips from the FAB and that the fab will work during the CNY (i don't think that intel closes its productions line on their multi billion dollars fabs during the holidays). That would have made sense to me.

3) They will not publish a video of the Avalon mining before the batch starts selling
The original plan was to post it before the end of the 2012. No one saw it. It simply dosen't exist. There is no reasons not to show a little video of the Avalon mining if it does exist. This recalls me Tom when he didn't want to post pictures of the chips he should own.

4) They will not try to smash the network for a small period with their 100 ASIC to prove that they are out there
Just turn them on for 2 hours, we would notice. They didn't do this. They will not.

5)

Did they told you (chinese customers) the reason of the delay in shipping? It cannot be customs there.

No, I personally have heard no Chinese customers receiving their products. There was no explanation in this post.

I will change my idea if:
1) There is a video of the Avalon mining that convinces me and my standards
2) Jeff receives the Avalon at least 6 hours before the second batch, so that he has the time to show us something.

The BS about keeping the competition at the obscure of the fabulous progresses the Avalon team did in the dark field of the ASICs doesn't hold anymore.

I hope my thread to be appreciated. By no reasons i want to troll. I wanted to be a customer.

1. Actually, chance of Jeff getting the unit on Thursday is pretty good, but of course there is a chance he won't like I mentioned. if you choose to read that has Jeff will not receive the unit that's not my problem.

2. It is what it is. there's a mountain of shit to order.

3. Let me explain something to you, and everyone else here, all of the evidence, short from a review from a trustworthy third-party can be faked. I rest easy thinking Jeff and Bitcoin Foundation is a good choice.

4. Let me quote Inaba here: "You are a fucking idiot."

The BS about keeping the competition at the obscure of the fabulous progresses the Avalon team did in the dark field of the ASICs doesn't hold anymore.

Why the fuck not? I think I should have taken orders like BFL, screwed people with their backorders, then I'll not run into any of the problem I currently run into, and now some how I'm the greedy one? Get real. In addition, We at Avalon still do not BFL will ship a working product during the next month, Feb, 2013, so we are being cautious. Or consider this, a real bigshot IC company comes out and produces a 40nm, or lower Bitcoin Mining ASIC, and everyone will be kind of screwed. small batches allow the network to scale properly and minimize risk for both parties, the seller and customer. Whatever though, at this point I don't expect anyone to understand.

But speaking of greed, Let me give you a dose of potential reality you should actually worry about instead of this bullshit. Let me tell you a story about greed, there's a follow situation as described on a Chinese forum which refreshed what I thought was the rock bottom for evilness in the human heart.

The person, described Avalon as a scam, but not in the traditional sense where we did not make a working product but rather. We would upon "smoking day" chip success, issue a complete refund and start mining ourselves telling everyone the chip failed, then proceed to mining bitcoins at a rate about $40,000 a day.

tl;dr; It is much easier for Avalon to scam people than you thought. Clearly you have been worrying about the wrong things. Don't order from us if our terms is not good enough for you. Please, save us both the trouble.

Has advanced knowledge of forum formatting, yet simple cell phone camera use still escapes him.

[michaelmclees]

A review from Jeff could be faked too, so why bother with that, if your logic is sound?  When BFL wouldn't provide timely pictures and videos, it later became clear that they were failing to provide that stuff because they simply didn't have it.

Now you're failing to provide that kind of stuff, only under the excuse that you could have faked it.  Sure, but we know that.  We know that a video of the machine isn't 100% proof, but that isn't what people are asking for.  They're asking for whatever assurance they feel pictures and videos would provide.

[Tinua]

................ We at Avalon still do not believe BFL will ship a working product during the next month, Feb, 2013, so we are being cautious. Or consider this, a real bigshot IC company comes out and produces a 40nm, or lower Bitcoin Mining ASIC, and everyone will be kind of screwed. small batches allow the network to scale properly and minimize risk for both parties, the seller and customer. Whatever though, at this point I don't expect anyone to understand.........

Who cares when BFL shipped?
What interests me alone is, when you sent my boxes
What is a smaller batch good for, if you bring not even the few boxes out of the country?
What good is it, if BFL shipp not bevor March, when our Boxes not shipped before CNY?
You wrote in big letters and counters "we Shipped"! We have not done! And what happen?.... "we shipp 2 Boxes" Great! Applause!
Why do you not publish the order number of the shipped boxes daily, so all the buyers know what going on?

This kind of questions have to be answered from you! Not all the other meaningless BS!

[PuertoLibre]

You want to tell them to piss off, don't you?  The hate is swelling in you now.  Take your keyboard weapon.  Use it.  They are unarmed.  Strike them down with it.  Give in to your anger.  With each passing moment, you make yourself more like me...

Indeed.

I suggest BitSyncom you turn away from becoming an Inaba. I understand that customer service is like washing a backed up toilet. (only worse since you have to deal with talking turds)

Just give the facts and hide the anger as it looks bad and puts you on par with Inaba. Let your success do the talking and walking for you.

[creativex]

Amazing how shipping deadlines of their own making seem to bring out the true colors of these vaporware vendors. Hey thanks at least for dropping the phony professionalism BitSyncom.

[BitSyncom]

Amazing how shipping deadlines of their own making seem to bring out the true colors of these vaporware vendors. Hey thanks at least for dropping the phony professionalism BitSyncom.

I'm just a human being.

p.s.

Since people are suggesting I get removed for potential scam, can I report people for slander also?

[creativex]

Amazing how shipping deadlines of their own making seem to bring out the true colors of these vaporware vendors. Hey thanks at least for dropping the phony professionalism BitSyncom.

I'm just a human being.

THEN USE YOUR OPPOSABLE THUMBS TO SEND AT LEAST JEFF A TRACKING NUMBER.

If you do this, Jeff will almost surely confirm and 90% of this will go away.

[PuertoLibre]

Amazing how shipping deadlines of their own making seem to bring out the true colors of these vaporware vendors. Hey thanks at least for dropping the phony professionalism BitSyncom.

I'm just a human being.

p.s.

Since people are suggesting I get removed for potential scam, can I report people for slander also?

By all means, fire away. Make sure to hit Inaba for once! (Half joking...no, wait, I am serious.)

[beekeeper]

You want to tell them to piss off, don't you?  The hate is swelling in you now.  Take your keyboard weapon.  Use it.  They are unarmed.  Strike them down with it.  Give in to your anger.  With each passing moment, you make yourself more like me...

Indeed.

I suggest BitSyncom you turn away from becoming an Inaba. I understand that customer service is like washing a backed up toilet. (only worse since you have to deal with talking turds)

Just give the facts and hide the anger as it looks bad and puts you on par with Inaba. Let your success do the talking and walking for you.

Its a joke:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RFvAeSJgjc

[Phinnaeus Gage]

Amazing how shipping deadlines of their own making seem to bring out the true colors of these vaporware vendors. Hey thanks at least for dropping the phony professionalism BitSyncom.

I'm just a human being.

p.s.

Since people are suggesting I get removed for potential scam, can I report people for slander also?

Its libel: Libel is defined as defamation by written or printed words, pictures, or in any form other than by spoken words or gestures.

[Korbman]

3. Let me explain something to you, and everyone else here, all of the evidence, short from a review from a trustworthy third-party can be faked. I rest easy thinking Jeff and Bitcoin Foundation is a good choice.

The only thing I don't understand is why you've only "shipped" 2 units. This has come around a number of times already..1 to Jeff, and 1 to the Foundation. What about the other 298? Why not just update some of the preorders with tracking numbers if they shipped? If everything has gone as planned, then there shouldn't have been just two units leaving your facility to begin with...it should have been dozens, all with tracking numbers. Nobody would give two fucks if they had a tracking number and found out their order was stuck in customs...

Believe it or not, that little bit of information would have negated the need for multiple threads calling you a scammer...Why is this so hard for you to understand?

[dooferorg]

Amazing how shipping deadlines of their own making seem to bring out the true colors of these vaporware vendors. Hey thanks at least for dropping the phony professionalism BitSyncom.

I'm just a human being.

THEN USE YOUR OPPOSABLE THUMBS TO SEND AT LEAST JEFF A TRACKING NUMBER.

If you do this, Jeff will almost surely confirm and 90% of this will go away.

Next excuse up from Avalon/BitSyncom 'Hmm.. must have been lost in the mail .. Sorry about that'

[Beepbop]

Who cares when BFL shipped?
What interests me alone is, when you sent my boxes

I won't speak to the rest, but this actually makes sense to me: If they release details about what exact components they're missing and post detailed photos of the boards they might risk
- A competitor cutting down the time to shipping, thus depriving Avalon's own customers of some days of profitable mining.
- A competitor, or antoher enterprising saboteur with deep pockets could vacuum the market for the exact components that Avalon need.

The first isn't much of an issue by this point, I think - BFL seem to far along in their development to do a redesign - but based on what we know about the most unscrupulous competitors, or even some groups of miners, I wouldn't put it past them to try to slow down Avalon's batch 2 by increasing demand for components. I think that would be an effort in vain - I don't think any mining groups have that much money - but stranger things have happened in Bitcoin.

[Phinnaeus Gage]

I'm going to push the envelop here.

In my mind, all the evidence to date points to Avalon not delivery as promised. Therefore, I openly invite Team Avalon to sue me. Simply have your lawyer contact me (PM/email). I will then provide them my real name, address, etc., so that they can properly serve me papers.

To make the libel suit official--Avalon is a scam!

If I don't hear from their lawyer within 24 hours, then what I stated above is indeed fact.

By 3:00 CST tomorrow, I will report back here to state that either I have been contacted by their lawyers, or no-joy. If I'm not contacted, then the age-old adage "buyer beware" is in force, and anybody purchasing Batch #2 are ____________ (refrained from completely the sentence, though the last word can easily be surmised).

~Bruno K~

PS: Somebody quote me. I am not drunk and this account has not been hacked, which can be verified by the admins of this forum if proof is needed.

[creativex]

I'm going to push the envelop here.

In my mind, all the evidence to date points to Avalon not delivery as promised. Therefore, I openly invite Team Avalon to sue me. Simply have your lawyer contact me (PM/email). I will then provide them my real name, address, etc., so that they can properly serve me papers.

To make the libel suit official--Avalon is a scam!

If I don't hear from their lawyer within 24 hours, then what I stated above is indeed fact.

By 3:00 CST tomorrow, I will report back here to state that either I have been contacted by their lawyers, or no-joy. If I'm not contacted, then the age-old adage "buyer beware" is in force, and anybody purchasing Batch #2 are ____________ (refrained from completely the sentence, though the last word can easily be surmised).

~Bruno K~

PS: Somebody quote me. I am not drunk and this account has not been hacked, which can be verified by the admins of this forum if proof is needed.

Drunken haxxor.

[cedivad]

In china they don't sue you.
They simply send someone to visit you. They are more practical.

[finkleshnorts]

I'm going to push the envelop here.

In my mind, all the evidence to date points to Avalon not delivery as promised. Therefore, I openly invite Team Avalon to sue me. Simply have your lawyer contact me (PM/email). I will then provide them my real name, address, etc., so that they can properly serve me papers.

To make the libel suit official--Avalon is a scam!

If I don't hear from their lawyer within 24 hours, then what I stated above is indeed fact.

By 3:00 CST tomorrow, I will report back here to state that either I have been contacted by their lawyers, or no-joy. If I'm not contacted, then the age-old adage "buyer beware" is in force, and anybody purchasing Batch #2 are ____________ (refrained from completely the sentence, though the last word can easily be surmised).

~Bruno K~

PS: Somebody quote me. I am not drunk and this account has not been hacked, which can be verified by the admins of this forum if proof is needed.

[PuertoLibre]

You want to tell them to piss off, don't you?  The hate is swelling in you now.  Take your keyboard weapon.  Use it.  They are unarmed.  Strike them down with it.  Give in to your anger.  With each passing moment, you make yourself more like me...

Indeed.

I suggest BitSyncom you turn away from becoming an Inaba. I understand that customer service is like washing a backed up toilet. (only worse since you have to deal with talking turds)

Just give the facts and hide the anger as it looks bad and puts you on par with Inaba. Let your success do the talking and walking for you.

Its a joke:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RFvAeSJgjc

I thought it was an interesting (and strangely slow paced).

I have never actually seen Star Wars. I don't even have a clue from what movie in the trilogy it is. I should go watch that movie someday.

[Phinnaeus Gage]

In china they don't sue you.
They simply send someone to visit you. They are more practical.

No problem here. They'll have my address. We keep the doors unlocked. There are no guns in this home. There'll more than welcome to come by unannounced, but with a courtesy call, I'll make sure to have tea ready.

[Beepbop]

If I don't hear from their lawyer within 24 hours, then what I stated above is indeed fact.

President Obama is a shape shifting lizard from Mars. If I don't hear from the Secret Service within 24 hours, then what I stated above is indeed fact. P.S. It doesn't count if the Secret Service contacts me about Bitcoin.

[beekeeper]

I thought it was an interesting (and strangely slow paced).

I have never actually seen Star Wars. I don't even have a clue from what movie in the trilogy it is. I should go watch that movie someday.

I don't know which movie either, but I would remember the scene anytime..

[johnyj]

I believe it is not a scam, but there are much more besides a working product, I think BFL feels like a well established business, while avalon feels the opposite, especially the custom service

[Trance104]

Your response "stinks", as coming from an insecure person "breathing" lies...

This is precisely why most people running bitcoin businesses or writing bitcoin software think the forum is a ghetto.

Back to ignore, you.

To bad the people running bitcoin businesses are all scammers. Look at bitcoinasic.net.... Who would have thought Tom to be a scammer? What a shame.

The community may talk down on "businesses", but with good reason.

[Korbman]

This is precisely why most people running bitcoin businesses or writing bitcoin software think the forum is a ghetto.

Back to ignore, you.

To bad the people running bitcoin businesses are all scammers. Look at bitcoinasic.net.... Who would have thought Tom to be a scammer? What a shame.

The community may talk down on "businesses", but with good reason.

Not entirely true. I imagine there are a number of businesses out there with wholehearted intentions. However, who do you think gets the most attention..a well-intentioned small business, or the latest scam to come to Bitcoin?

Oh, and Tom isn't a scammer (yet)...he just failed to run his business properly. People are still getting their refunds (slowly).

[Phinnaeus Gage]

I'm just goin' to leave this here:

By the regulation, the FCC DoC certification mark is mandatory for devices classified under part 15 (IT equipment like computers, switched-mode power supplies, monitors etc., television receivers, cable system devices, low-power transmitters, un-licensed personal communication devices) and part 18 (industrial, scientific, and medical (ISM) devices that emit RF radiation) of the FCC regulations.

[mrb]

cedivad, you are wrong. Avalon is not a scam. Neither you nor I can prove our opinions quite yet - so just wait and see.

1) Yifu cannot give a tracking number because, I theorize, he used unofficial / alternative ways to get the package quickly to Jeff in order to work around typical delays caused by traditional shipping companies, exports customs, etc. Perhaps he had to bribe a carrier, or a customs agent, or ask a travelling friend to carry it on a plane, etc.

2) Yifu said "resistor" instead of "mosfets and inductors" in a heated post. He made a mistake. Big deal. Besides, even resistors/capacitors can cause a 4-6 week delay (which he wants to avoid) when ordered in quantities of about 1 million (each Avalon unit probably has 200 1200 resistors/capacitors, multiplied by 600 units = 720 thousand (Edit: fixed math)). It is also very likely that most of the resistors/capacitors would be the exact same model, as they will be used as a supporting logic for a device that is estimated to be composed of 80 ASICs or so (see my previous posts making this estimation). That's lots of repetitive identical logic blocks. Even Digikey in the US rarely carries individual models of SMD resistors in qantities of 1+ million. Here is a concrete example: only ~5% of the 4.7kOhm SMD resistors models on Digikey are available in quantities of 1+ million.

3) I perfectly understand the Avalon team's stance. Every piece of evidence posted by BFL has been criticized. Avalon saw that and said "f*ck this shit - we are not going to waste time arguing with these trolls - let them see the evidence once we ship. Period."

4) Ditto. They don't need to prove anything. Plus mining on the main net would anger customers as they would raise the difficulty level.

5) You will hear from Chinese customers (if any ordered) as soon as they get their units. Patience - they just barely started shipping!

[Bugpowder]

I think they've made clear that their counter-argument is going to be coming in a box with fans and ASICs in it. I'm just getting the popcorn. Being at the cutting edge of mining is a high-risk venture.

This is not the cutting edge of mining.  Its the latest scam.

[crazyates]

I have never actually seen Star Wars.

I knew there was a reason I didn't like you.

But you can see Inaba's point tho, right?

[libertybuck]

but I am sure all ASIC and FPGA boards have a DC to DC PSU.

I think so. If you have a Icarus or Lancelot FPGA boards you will know it is true.

[tvbcof]

Your response "stinks", as coming from an insecure person "breathing" lies...

This is precisely why most people running bitcoin businesses or writing bitcoin software think the forum is a ghetto.

Back to ignore, you.

It would surprise me not if most people participating in the forum itself felt this way.  In a funny way that is part of the appeal of it to me, but then again it is not robbing me of time I would be spending on worthwhile things ATM.

[fernarios]

even resistors/capacitors can cause a 4-6 week delay (which he wants to avoid) when ordered in quantities of 1+ million (each Avalon unit probably has 200+ resistors/capacitors, multiplied by 600 units = 1.2 million).

>200*600=1 200 000

[mrb]

even resistors/capacitors can cause a 4-6 week delay (which he wants to avoid) when ordered in quantities of 1+ million (each Avalon unit probably has 200+ resistors/capacitors, multiplied by 600 units = 1.2 million).

>200*600=1 200 000

Huh? You just confirmed my math.

[greyhawk]

do the math again

[mrb]

Oops! Shame on me. Damn extra zeros.

If I may adjust my argument and estimation, the Avalon ASIC PCB shows about 15 resistors/capacitors per ASIC. I estimated earlier they will have about 80 ASICs per Avalon, so that's 1200 resistors/capacitors per Avalon, multiplied by 600 units = 720k resistors/capacitors. Not 1+ million but close.

[mb300sd]

Oops! Shame on me. Damn extra zeros.

If I may adjust my argument and estimation, the Avalon ASIC PCB shows about 15 resistors/capacitors per ASIC. I estimated earlier they will have about 80 ASICs per Avalon, so that's 1200 resistors/capacitors per Avalon, multiplied by 600 units = 720k resistors/capacitors. Not 1+ million but close.

Shouldn't be an issue... I just searched for a few random values picked from projects I've worked on recently.

http://www.digikey.com/scripts/dksearch/dksus.dll?FV=fff40001%2Cfff800e9&vendor=0&mnonly=0&newproducts=0&ptm=0&fid=0&quantity=0&PV1=112&PV16=5

http://www.digikey.com/scripts/dksearch/dksus.dll?FV=fff40001%2Cfff800e9&vendor=0&mnonly=0&newproducts=0&ptm=0&fid=0&quantity=0&PV1=261&PV16=5

http://www.digikey.com/scripts/dksearch/dksus.dll?FV=fff40002%2Cfff8000b&vendor=0&mnonly=0&newproducts=0&ptm=0&fid=0&quantity=0&PV13=40&PV16=5

look at the quantities available..

Also, the capacitors around the IC are likely to be power bypass capacitors, which can easily be substituted for with slightly different values

[Bogart]

His computer will only work in NYC? This blows my mind!

He either checks the connecting ip or has the certificates on a pc there.

I do not have my hardware 2 factor auth

[mrb]

Oops! Shame on me. Damn extra zeros.

If I may adjust my argument and estimation, the Avalon ASIC PCB shows about 15 resistors/capacitors per ASIC. I estimated earlier they will have about 80 ASICs per Avalon, so that's 1200 resistors/capacitors per Avalon, multiplied by 600 units = 720k resistors/capacitors. Not 1+ million but close.

Shouldn't be an issue... I just searched for a few random values picked from projects I've worked on recently.

http://www.digikey.com/scripts/dksearch/dksus.dll?FV=fff40001%2Cfff800e9&vendor=0&mnonly=0&newproducts=0&ptm=0&fid=0&quantity=0&PV1=112&PV16=5

http://www.digikey.com/scripts/dksearch/dksus.dll?FV=fff40001%2Cfff800e9&vendor=0&mnonly=0&newproducts=0&ptm=0&fid=0&quantity=0&PV1=261&PV16=5

http://www.digikey.com/scripts/dksearch/dksus.dll?FV=fff40002%2Cfff8000b&vendor=0&mnonly=0&newproducts=0&ptm=0&fid=0&quantity=0&PV13=40&PV16=5

look at the quantities available..

Also, the capacitors around the IC are likely to be power bypass capacitors, which can easily be substituted for with slightly different values

These links confirmed what I said: only ~5% of the models are available in quantity of 1+ million (eg. only 15 of the 325 models of the 10kΩ resistors you linked to).

I agree that in general they are mostly interchangeable. When I design a circuit, as a hobbyist, I tend to pick the models/manufacturers of components available in greatest quantities, as they are usually also the less expensive. But I am not a designer of Avalon. I don't know their constraints. I don't know their requirements. I can't speak for themselves. All I know is some electronics designers are picky about which specific manufacturer of components they choose.

[YipYip]

You know they'll fill that 2nd batch in hours right? Even with this total PR fail...

Why do u call it a fail ... once again its unknown ...so unknown can be yes...fear takes hold and...CaChing !

Also Demos always work exactly how u imagine them to work "in your mind"

A key to selling s/w to large orgs is to never show them the software.... talk about it but dont show them

It works exactly how they want it to in their minds eye...even with 3 org reps in the room with 3 different visions of how it operates ...everybody is happy with completely different peices of s/w...lol

Sad but VERY true...

[YipYip]

Your response "stinks", as coming from an insecure person "breathing" lies...

This is precisely why most people running bitcoin businesses or writing bitcoin software think the forum is a ghetto.

Back to ignore, you.

To bad the people running bitcoin businesses are all scammers. Look at bitcoinasic.net.... Who would have thought Tom to be a scammer? What a shame.

The community may talk down on "businesses", but with good reason.

Actually ...All the CC's have refunded (by Dave) so @ this point bASIC is not a scam ..i think there is only 105BTC left

[Bicknellski]

I spent a lot of time during the last days (or weeks) on the forums considering a big investment on the Avalon ASIC. I tough that even if my english is far from perfect, i should have opened this thread explaining my reasons to people that didn't have the time to spend here as i did.

1) Jeff will not receive its order before the batch starts selling
If you pay 400$ to ship something (rumors are that the custom agent was corrupted to let the Avalon unit pass trough) you get a tracking number. God, i just spent 400$ to ship something, i need to know where it is in real time. I need to know when it will arrive. If the parcel was to arrive before the second batch, Avalon would know it and would be confident about it. They are instead suggesting you that hey, you might lose your place on the second batch if you wait for Jeff.

2) They need to order components before this weekend because they cleaned the market out of resistors and capacitors
Hell, yes. We need components! You know, this stuff is hard to find and it takes 4 week to have it. What kind of components? Sci-Fiction stuff? No, resistors. RESISTORS! Once that Avalon discovered the community is smart enough to realize that you can't run out of resistors in China, they changed the supposed-missing components to mosfets and "inductor". People that know their stuff better than i do thinks that the only pratical use for mosfets in the Avalon is to build a custom PSU. Something that doesn't make any sense. You have problems building the Avalon, you don't need to get things worse house-producing a PSU.
They could have said that they need to have some other chips from the FAB and that the fab will work during the CNY (i don't think that intel closes its productions line on their multi billion dollars fabs during the holidays). That would have made sense to me.

3) They will not publish a video of the Avalon mining before the batch starts selling
The original plan was to post it before the end of the 2012. No one saw it. It simply dosen't exist. There is no reasons not to show a little video of the Avalon mining if it does exist. This recalls me Tom when he didn't want to post pictures of the chips he should own.

4) They will not try to smash the network for a small period with their 100 ASIC to prove that they are out there
Just turn them on for 2 hours, we would notice. They didn't do this. They will not.

5)

Did they told you (chinese customers) the reason of the delay in shipping? It cannot be customs there.

No, I personally have heard no Chinese customers receiving their products. There was no explanation in this post.

I will change my idea if:
1) There is a video of the Avalon mining that convinces me and my standards
2) Jeff receives the Avalon at least 6 hours before the second batch, so that he has the time to show us something.

The BS about keeping the competition at the obscure of the fabulous progresses the Avalon team did in the dark field of the ASICs doesn't hold anymore.

I hope my thread to be appreciated. By no reasons i want to troll. I wanted to be a customer.

1. Actually, chance of Jeff getting the unit on Thursday is pretty good, but of course there is a chance he won't like I mentioned. if you choose to read that has Jeff will not receive the unit that's not my problem.

2. It is what it is. there's a mountain of shit to order.

3. Let me explain something to you, and everyone else here, all of the evidence, short from a review from a trustworthy third-party can be faked. I rest easy thinking Jeff and Bitcoin Foundation is a good choice.

4. Let me quote Inaba here: "You are a fucking idiot."

The BS about keeping the competition at the obscure of the fabulous progresses the Avalon team did in the dark field of the ASICs doesn't hold anymore.

Why the fuck not? I think I should have taken orders like BFL, screwed people with their backorders, then I'll not run into any of the problem I currently run into order parts and shit. Now some how I'm the greedy one? Get real. In addition, We at Avalon still do not believe BFL will ship a working product during the next month, Feb, 2013, so we are being cautious. Or consider this, a real bigshot IC company comes out and produces a 40nm, or lower Bitcoin Mining ASIC, and everyone will be kind of screwed. small batches allow the network to scale properly and minimize risk for both parties, the seller and customer. Whatever though, at this point I don't expect anyone to understand.

But speaking of greed, Let me give you a dose of potential reality you should actually worry about instead of this bullshit. Let me tell you a story about greed, there's a follow situation as described on a Chinese forum which refreshed what I thought was the rock bottom for evilness in the human heart.

The person, described Avalon as a scam, but not in the traditional sense where we did not make a working product but rather. We would upon "smoking day" chip success, issue a complete refund and start mining ourselves telling everyone the chip failed, then proceed to mining bitcoins at a rate about $40,000 a day.

tl;dr; It is much easier for Avalon to scam people than you thought. Clearly you have been worrying about the wrong things. Don't order from us if our terms is not good enough for you. Please, save us both the trouble.

Too bad I have to sift through all the BS to find the info because of the trash chucked about in this forum. Thanks for the info BitSyncom I can see that your level of frustration is growing and it is hard not to lash out. I appreciate that from what I have read of the Avalon posts from you and your team you are doing this as you go and are trying whatever you can to adapt to the given situation. Although it might seem implausible to some what you are putting out is a risky for both your business as well as the consumer. I wish you the best and I hope that you can push through the next few weeks and be vindicated. I see consistency in your vision and what you have put out to the community about your product and the development.  I think it is right that people should NOT risk purchasing any ASIC unless you are willing to lose your that money considering the fact the product is untested. The buyer has to BEWARE here and that is the bottom line. Weigh the risk if you are not willing to part with 1500 USD then don't do it simple as that. There is no SCAM. The conditions to pre-order this device are clear. If you don't like the terms don't put the money down. Pretty simple.

[Korbman]

There is no SCAM.

Ah, nice. You must have quite a bit more information at hand than hundreds of the rest of us. Care to explain?

[creativex]

He's been here since Christmas Eve man! ...obviously knows everything there is to know about all the principles.

[axus]

2) They need to order components before this weekend because they cleaned the market out of resistors and capacitors
Hell, yes. We need components! You know, this stuff is hard to find and it takes 4 week to have it. What kind of components? Sci-Fiction stuff? No, resistors. RESISTORS! Once that Avalon discovered the community is smart enough to realize that you can't run out of resistors in China, they changed the supposed-missing components to mosfets and "inductor". People that know their stuff better than i do thinks that the only pratical use for mosfets in the Avalon is to build a custom PSU. Something that doesn't make any sense. You have problems building the Avalon, you don't need to get things worse house-producing a PSU.
They could have said that they need to have some other chips from the FAB and that the fab will work during the CNY (i don't think that intel closes its productions line on their multi billion dollars fabs during the holidays). That would have made sense to me.

3) They will not publish a video of the Avalon mining before the batch starts selling
The original plan was to post it before the end of the 2012. No one saw it. It simply dosen't exist. There is no reasons not to show a little video of the Avalon mining if it does exist. This recalls me Tom when he didn't want to post pictures of the chips he should own.

4) They will not try to smash the network for a small period with their 100 ASIC to prove that they are out there
Just turn them on for 2 hours, we would notice. They didn't do this. They will not.

2. It is what it is. there's a mountain of shit to order.

3. Let me explain something to you, and everyone else here, all of the evidence, short from a review from a trustworthy third-party can be faked. I rest easy thinking Jeff and Bitcoin Foundation is a good choice.

4. Let me quote Inaba here: "You are a fucking idiot."

Why does everything need to be ordered right away?  Let the first shipment go out, take a break.  There's no rush to start a second batch.  The first batch will get there.  Right?

By the way, are there any examples where people have called out a Bitcoin scam, and been wrong?

[Korbman]

He's been here since Christmas Eve man! ...obviously knows everything there is to know about all the principles.

Ha, I know right. There's been quite a number of defensive newbies coming around all of a sudden. Seems suspicious

Or maybe we're just jaded after being here for quite some time... 

[creativex]

I may be jaded, but I'm pretty sure sockpuppets exist. I saw one riding a unicorn just a bit ago.

[cedivad]

I may be jaded, but I'm pretty sure sockpuppets exist. I saw one riding a unicorn just a bit ago.

+1

They are also too easy by far to detect. The result is confirming that I don't want to have nothing to so with avalon anymore.

[nbtcminer]

I may be jaded, but I'm pretty sure sockpuppets exist. I saw one riding a unicorn just a bit ago.

+1

They are also too easy by far to detect. The result is confirming that I don't want to have nothing to so with avalon anymore.

@ cedivad:


Edit: bah I'm tired... Walletbit is the payment processor.

[creativex]

It should be clear to everyone by now that producing an ASIC miner is significantly more difficult than producing FPGAs. Therefore evidence of successful FPGA products is not firm evidence that vendor xyz is capable of producing an ASIC mining device.

[cedivad]

It should be clear to everyone by now that producing an ASIC miner is significantly more difficult than producing FPGAs. Therefore evidence of successful FPGA products is not firm evidence that vendor xyz is capable of producing an ASIC mining device.

Yes, it was the way i was gonna reply.

I also have no idea ho how they plan to convert 50kBTC to $ in a few hours without touching the market.

But hell, tomorrow is gonna be a hell of a day for the market.

[PuertoLibre]

He's been here since Christmas Eve man! ...obviously knows everything there is to know about all the principles.

Ha, I know right. There's been quite a number of defensive newbies coming around all of a sudden. Seems suspicious

Or maybe we're just jaded after being here for quite some time...  

BFL: Oh shit! They showed a screenshot!
BFL: <Wrings hands with worry>
BFL: Send in our Newbie clones! (Ala Star Wars)
Josh-Mual: We shall let our customers know of our delay in, I.N.C.R.E.M.E.N.T.S.

(Joking only)

[Korbman]

I feel that the conditions for Avalon's batch #2 don't seem to make any sort of financial or business sense. I'm actually really curious as to how they plan to get a vendor to accept 100k + of BTC and what the heck any vendor would do with such a large amount of BTC. Dumping it on the markets would simply devalue it and holding on it would not pay the bills.

Exactly! BFL utilizes BitPay to convert any BTC payments right to USD so they can cover their bills. Avalon just wants BTC sent to an address (as far as we've been told)...which is incredibly sketchy WalletBit. Not to mention I  doubt their mysterious supplier accepts Bitcoin to begin with...though it is possible, don't get me wrong.

From my point of view, this reeks of business incompetence...and we've seen how that turns out for other companies, from GLBSE to bASIC.

[CoinHoarder]

Avalon just wants BTC sent to an address (as far as we've been told)...which is incredibly sketchy.

Umm. Where did you read this?

Certainly Avalon will be using a payment processor like Bitpay or a similar processor. That just doesn't make since to me.

[PuertoLibre]

Avalon just wants BTC sent to an address (as far as we've been told)...which is incredibly sketchy.

Umm. Where did you read this?

Certainly Avalon will be using a payment processor like Bitpay or a similar processor. That just doesn't make since to me.

They will be using WalletBit. (Not some anonymous address)

[Korbman]

Avalon just wants BTC sent to an address (as far as we've been told)...which is incredibly sketchy.

Umm. Where did you read this?

Certainly Avalon will be using a payment processor like Bitpay or a similar processor. That just doesn't make since to me.

They will be using WalletBit. (Not some anonymous address)

My apologies for spreading FUD, seems I missed that part.

Adjusted original post.

[cedivad]

And now the next question will be, why in earth they plan to convert to usd if they want to run with the money? The answer is that they will not IMO run with the money, they simply had production problem they hope to fix with this money.

[creativex]

I agree. I think they had problems and hope to fix it. If this is the case, I wish they'd just come clean.

[PuertoLibre]

My Theory:

Avalon releases picture of a box (back end)
Response: It is a box of fans!

Avalon releases picture at a different angle.
Then releases pictures of a stat page.


Response: Kano says it looks like legitimate output and remarks on the revision number and date.
Response: Everyone else says nothing. Others say it is "FAKE!", "DOCTORED", "Photoshopped".

Jeff gets his review done after he gets the unit.
Response: Oh that nice, (4 seconds later) But this proves nothing. It only proves that it is one of two boxes. No, it is actually just one box. The REST DON'T WORK!

BitCoin Foundation gets theirs.
Response: WTF is mine!?

First 4 customers get theirs.
Response: WTF, Where are ours?! This is BS! They won't ship the rest!

Next 10 customers get theirs.
Response: Holy MF...Only 10?

Next 100 customers get theirs.
Response: Whatever, I bet they have boxes hidden somewhere and are mining with the other 200+ boards.

Last 200 customers get theirs.
Response: WTF! Where are my Batch 2 orders you SOB?

Feb 20th comes around.
Response: WTF? I bet they ran off with the money.

etc etc.

[creativex]

Just because a few outliers may respond that way doesn't mean it reflects the majority opinion. Avalon had the best reputation of all the vendors. Recently that's been taking a tremendous beating and not without justification. Their behavior has changed dramatically since their shipping date came and went.

[PuertoLibre]

Just because a few outliers may respond that way doesn't mean it reflects the majority opinion. Avalon had the best reputation of all the vendors. Recently that's been taking a tremendous beating and not without justification. Their behavior has changed dramatically since their shipping date came and went.

Lets hope the level of proof comes and some fears are put to rest. (among the sane of mind at least)

[Transisto]

... Their behavior has changed dramatically since their shipping date came and went.

This, +1

If their only concern now is not being worst than BFL we're in deep trouble.

Whatever problem they have shipping this out of the country could be solved by renting a space and having the hardware mine for customers minus a fee. ...

That would only require ~68amp of 220v  

I'm eager to hear what their problem is / was.

[creativex]

Just because a few outliers may respond that way doesn't mean it reflects the majority opinion. Avalon had the best reputation of all the vendors. Recently that's been taking a tremendous beating and not without justification. Their behavior has changed dramatically since their shipping date came and went.

Lets hope the level of proof comes and some fears are put to rest. (among the sane of mind at least)

Unfortunately, by opening their batch 2 order window tomorrow and making comments such as this:

A demonstration will come by a customer very soon, if you wish to wait until then, go ahead; but you then run into the risk of not making into batch #2

They're forcing people to make choices they shouldn't have to make and that ramps up the animosity. What do you suppose the chances are of an independent review of Avalon appearing today? When that doesn't happen folks will have to go on what they know about Avalon currently to make their decision about batch 2 purchases.

[laSeek]

Looks like Jeff received his package...
Should I hold my breath waiting for those crying scam to apologise?

[cedivad]

Looks like Jeff received his package...
Should I hold my breath waiting for those crying scam to apologise?

I apologize.

However my dubs where more than founded. I'm happy that this is an event that was described in my first post, Jeff receiving the unit at least 6 hours before the preorder starts.

I'm really happy of it.

[dree12]

Looks like Jeff received his package...
Should I hold my breath waiting for those crying scam to apologise?

They don't need to apologize.

I never cried "scam" and I always maintained that Avalon, at least, actually did ship. Even so, I side with the sceptical here. They did nothing wrong. They pointed out, however shallow the logic, that there was a chance that Avalon was a scam. This is more information to everyone. This helps avoid groupthink.

The doubters need not apologize. In fact, I would like to thank them. It helps prove to the real scammers how difficult it would be to scam the community, such that even legitimate products are labelled scams. It ensures a better, safer community in Bitcoin's future.

[mrb]

Looks like Jeff received his package...
Should I hold my breath waiting for those crying scam to apologise?

They don't need to apologize.

I never cried "scam" and I always maintained that Avalon, at least, actually did ship. Even so, I side with the sceptical here. They did nothing wrong. They pointed out, however shallow the logic, that there was a chance that Avalon was a scam. This is more information to everyone. This helps avoid groupthink.

The doubters need not apologize. In fact, I would like to thank them. It helps prove to the real scammers how difficult it would be to scam the community, such that even legitimate products are labelled scams. It ensures a better, safer community in Bitcoin's future.

No. Most critics did not say there is a "chance". They said with absolute certainty "it is a scam". Cedivad included: check his thread title.

These uninformed and misguided critics have been the root cause of most of the trolling and fights on this forum.

[Trance104]

I can only hope that everyone gets their orders and they all work minus 2 - 3 lemons.

At least ONE person got his. It's stange how all the Chinese orders haven't gotten theirs yet, but the one influential voice in the BTC community got his. I wouldn't be surprised if it "Gets even more GH than claimed!".

We'll see how that one goes. Price increase in batch 2... BTC only... No customer service... If it doesn't work when you get it, "too bad". They are going to walk away with the money. Let Jeff leave his DAZZLING review of the product. We'll see batch 2 sell out and Avalon disappear.

Cheers!  

[cedivad]

Looks like Jeff received his package...
Should I hold my breath waiting for those crying scam to apologise?

They don't need to apologize.

I never cried "scam" and I always maintained that Avalon, at least, actually did ship. Even so, I side with the sceptical here. They did nothing wrong. They pointed out, however shallow the logic, that there was a chance that Avalon was a scam. This is more information to everyone. This helps avoid groupthink.

The doubters need not apologize. In fact, I would like to thank them. It helps prove to the real scammers how difficult it would be to scam the community, such that even legitimate products are labelled scams. It ensures a better, safer community in Bitcoin's future.

No. Most critics did not say there is a "chance". They said with absolute certainty "it is a scam". Cedivad included: check his thread title.

These uninformed and misguided critics have been the root cause of most of the trolling and fights on this forum.

Look at my first point. For the info we had 2 hours ago, it was a certain scam. Now everything changed.

[420]

http://garzikrants.blogspot.co.uk/

[laSeek]

Looks like Jeff received his package...
Should I hold my breath waiting for those crying scam to apologise?

I apologize.

However my dubs where more than founded. I'm happy that this is an event that was described in my first post, Jeff receiving the unit at least 6 hours before the preorder starts.

I'm really happy of it.

Respect & +1 cedivad - real men aren't afraid to be corrected - stand up for what you believe.
I don't fault Avalon for trying to do things the way they feel is best for them - I don't think they've handled their customers particularly well recently - but they've been better than many and it turns out substance over hype is a better suit for how they want to be seen.  At the end of the day they've come through.  Nice job.

[bce]

Wow, the Avalon may be a beast (power consumption / size), but that's a really clean case and internal layout.   Now, let's see if it can perform, and if Jeff can post a review prior to the opening of pre-order batch #2   This drama is just too good - and for that alone, thanks to team Avalon!    

[iCEBREAKER]

Now, let's see if it can perform, and if Jeff can post a review prior to the opening of pre-order batch #2   This drama is just too good - and for that alone, thanks to team Avalon!    

Hear, hear!  This season of All My Bitcoins is turning out to be a smash hit.  The upcoming difficulty doubling episode is even more exciting than the block halving!

I will never forget where I was when Jeff posted pics of the first consumer ASIC.

Best drama around, besides Utopia of course.

[Beepbop]

Why does everything need to be ordered right away?  Let the first shipment go out, take a break.  There's no rush to start a second batch. 

There is a huge rush for both them and their customers, to get mining before the difficulty goes up or Bitcoin gets hit with some unpredictable event, like another flash crash, flaw found in the protocol, or MtGox raided, Silk Road shut down, or whatever. It's a bit like an arms race.

[Beepbop]

Look at my first point. For the info we had 2 hours ago, it was a certain scam. Now everything changed.

So it's Schrödingers box of fans: It both is and is not a certain scam at the same time, but when you open the box it has to be one or the other.

[hardcore-fs]

Idiot........

http://garzikrants.blogspot.se

[Beepbop]

I hope you're not referring to me, because if you look over my post history, I thought Avalon ASICs were legit.

[mrb]

Most critics did not say there is a "chance". They said with absolute certainty "it is a scam". Cedivad included: check his thread title.

These uninformed and misguided critics have been the root cause of most of the trolling and fights on this forum.

Look at my first point. For the info we had 2 hours ago, it was a certain scam. Now everything changed.

You were poorly informed, because multiple details apparently unknown to you indicated that Avalon was likely legit:
- history of the guys, long-term members of this community (ngzhang and yifu had made and sold fpga devices, I personally bought fpgas from yifu)
- very conservative and plausible power consumption (150 Mhash/Joule)
- old 110nm tech, easier to design at than 65nm

I replied to your points of concern, but you seem to have ignored or not seen them:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=139725.msg1489135#msg1489135

I guess I am more interested in the psychology of this debate: what could we have said differently that would have changed your mind, that perhaps Avalon was legit? I am sure this boils down to poor communication and sharing of information between forum members. I am trying to understand how the communication can be improved. Because if it can be improved, there would be a lot fewer debates and arguments on these forums, hence it would improve the quality of the forum as a whole (and I am really interested in improving it.)

[creativex]

How would fewer debates and arguments improve anything? The salient points nearly always spring from the passionate debates/arguments.

Congrats Avalon, I haven't had much time to look over Jeff's posts yet, but the product he received looks very impressive.

[mrb]

How would fewer debates and arguments improve anything? The salient points nearly always spring from the passionate debates/arguments.

Congrats Avalon, I haven't had much time to look over Jeff's posts yet, but the product he received looks very impressive.

Yes, salient points come out of passionate debates. What I meant to say is that there was a lot of repetition: the same arguments, repeated over and over, with people apparently never moving forward.

[cedivad]

Most critics did not say there is a "chance". They said with absolute certainty "it is a scam". Cedivad included: check his thread title.

These uninformed and misguided critics have been the root cause of most of the trolling and fights on this forum.

Look at my first point. For the info we had 2 hours ago, it was a certain scam. Now everything changed.

You were poorly informed, because multiple details apparently unknown to you indicated that Avalon was likely legit:
- history of the guys, long-term members of this community (ngzhang and yifu had made and sold fpga devices, I personally bought fpgas from yifu)
- very conservative and plausible power consumption (150 Mhash/Joule)
- old 110nm tech, easier to design at than 65nm

I replied to your points of concern, but you seem to have ignored or not seen them:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=139725.msg1489135#msg1489135

I guess I am more interested in the psychology of this debate: what could we have said differently that would have changed your mind, that perhaps Avalon was legit? I am sure this boils down to poor communication and sharing of information between forum members. I am trying to understand how the communication can be improved. Because if it can be improved, there would be a lot fewer debates and arguments on these forums, hence it would improve the quality of the forum as a whole (and I am really interested in improving it.)

Not sure if trolling me or what. I knew that, however BFL has possible numbers, an history as FPGA maker and yet to ship. bAsics, almost the same. The whole forum was sure that this was a scam, the FACT that we where told lies is enought to prove it: why the Chinese customers didn't get their units if the only problem what to pass Chinese customs? Do we really belive that, again? They have problems they don't wont to admit with this avalon. Full point.
The million dollar they will get tomorrow will most probably fix these problems.

I think that you are the uninformed.

Edit, yes, I readed your post at the time but didn't tought it was worth replying. Everyone belive what they want to belive, you are one of the guys that would have paid in btc even without Jeff receiving its unit. You cannot say that hey, they just started shipping to Chinese customers, you can't except them to already have them. Yes, not in 3 days, but what about 2 weeks? Seriously? Also, the lack of the video, how do you seriously justify it? It dosent make any sense. Sorry, I'm from my phone and don't have the time right now to answer properly. I hope to have made a few points anyway.

[mrb]

Not sure if trolling me or what. I knew that, however BFL has possible numbers, an history as FPGA maker and yet to ship. bAsics, almost the same. The whole forum was sure that this was a scam, the FACT that we where told lies is enought to prove it: why the Chinese customers didn't get their units if the only problem what to pass Chinese customs? Do we really belive that, again? They have problems they don't wont to admit with this avalon. Full point.
The million dollar they will get tomorrow will most probably fix these problems.

I think that you are the uninformed.

Edit, yes, I readed your post at the time but didn't tought it was worth replying. Everyone belive what they want to belive, you are one of the guys that would have paid in btc even without Jeff receiving its unit. You cannot say that hey, they just started shipping to Chinese customers, you can't except them to already have them. Yes, not in 3 days, but what about 2 weeks? Seriously? Also, the lack of the video, how do you seriously justify it? It dosent make any sense. Sorry, I'm from my phone and don't have the time right now to answer properly. I hope to have made a few points anyway.

That's ok, take your time to reply when you are in front of a PC.

- "the whole forum was sure this was a scam" -> On the contrary, if you read the forums carefully you will find a very small number of critics with no credibility, and/or a history of trolling, making a lot of posts, but there is a much larger number of supporters (older accounts with more credence) who only defend ASIC vendors occasionally. The mere fact that BFL has so many preorders proves the large number of believers/supporters (and yes some of these customers in line are here just for the quick money and have no idea of the risks) - this is one of the reasons I say you are misinformed, because you failed to distinguish the general opinion of the forum members - but this is not your fault - it takes a lot of time to sift through the posts to filter out who can be trusted, who has the credentials, what information is important, etc

- "Chinese customers not speaking" -> firstly it is likely that ngzhang/yifu has literally just RUSHED a handful of units to the world so far, and that not a single Chinese customer was in this first shipped group (the bitcoin community is small in China compared to the rest of the world), plus there is the language barrier and they frequent different Bitcoin-related sites (have you seen the ridiculously small number of members posting in the Chinese subforum of bitcointalk.org?)

- "lack of video" -> If you were infomed, you would know that Yifu has explained they don't want to waste time trying to argue with critics, by providing videos, pictures, and so on, and that they would rather simply let the customers provide reviews/credibility. Again - not your fault to not know that - Yifu's post explaining their stance was buried deep in a thread.

Really I am asking you the question: is there anything we could have said that would have convinced you? Pointing out the top 10 most relevant posts from Yifu/ngzhang? Again I am just interested in the psychological aspects of the debate - sorry if you think I am trolling.

[Bicknellski]

Some vindication... let's continue to watch as more and more units come online over the next few weeks. That makes you feel better I bet Avalon... but you knew it would happen and if you
were able to read between the lines you could see that the building frustration and anxiety in the posts by BitSyncom was to me a dead give away this guys gives a shit about his product. You can't fake that sort of thing. He is invested and it comes through in his posts. Not a SCAM. Now let's see what BFL has to offer it's believers.

[bitmar]

Does anyone know if Jeff was testing on "test net" without access to the Internet ? Avalon rig, may only be a controller for FPGA mine in China ( it's simple to implement). I know it sounds stupidly  but it should be the last final test. Jeff, if you're reading this, please check it.

[Bicknellski]

There is no SCAM.

Ah, nice. You must have quite a bit more information at hand than hundreds of the rest of us. Care to explain?

The consistency of BitSyncom posts warranted the THERE IS NO SCAM comment.

[Korbman]

- "the whole forum was sure this was a scam" -> On the contrary, if you read the forums carefully you will find a very small number of critics with no credibility, and/or a history of trolling, making a lot of posts, but there is a much larger number of supporters (older accounts with more credence) who only defend ASIC vendors occasionally. The mere fact that BFL has so many preorders proves the large number of believers/supporters (and yes some of these customers in line are here just for the quick money and have no idea of the risks) - this is one of the reasons I say you are misinformed, because you failed to distinguish the general opinion of the forum members - but this is not your fault - it takes a lot of time to sift through the posts to filter out who can be trusted, who has the credentials, what information is important, etc

Actually it's been the opposite in this case. A number of veterans here cast doubt over Avalon as a result of their sudden "BFL like" behavior, which is a lot more than I can say about the nonsense that surrounded BFL for quite some time. Avalon started out with some transparency, but when it came time to package and ship they suddenly went secretive. That's never usually a good sign, and resulted in quite a bit of reasonable unease. It was the "newbie" accounts that kept popping up noting Avalon wasn't a scam and that we were overreacting.

Given the information (or lack thereof) we had available to us, I found the unease and pessimistic speculation justified, if not warranted. People can only make informed decisions with information...take that away and we're left with our imaginations.

[Korbman]

There is no SCAM.

Ah, nice. You must have quite a bit more information at hand than hundreds of the rest of us. Care to explain?

The consistency of BitSyncom posts warranted the THERE IS NO SCAM comment.

Consistency, eh? Funny, coming from the guy who's account is a month old...

[Bicknellski]

There is no SCAM.

Ah, nice. You must have quite a bit more information at hand than hundreds of the rest of us. Care to explain?

The consistency of BitSyncom posts warranted the THERE IS NO SCAM comment.

Consistency, eh? Funny, coming from the guy who's account is a month old...

You do know it is a forum and one can read past posts right? What does having a one month old account have to do with making an assessment based on the characteristics of the posts being made? BitSyncom from the earliest posts was pretty matter of fact about what he was proposing and why even though they were behind other teams was willing to go forward basically because there needed to be others in the ASIC game. I don't get why people would immediately jump to wild speculation considering the measured way things progressed in the forum posts. Go through and just read it. Unfortunately a lot of what is posted on top of the Avalon threads is not worth the time to read. This thread though certainly made me stand up and notice that BitSyncom was at wits end and was dying for some vindication. Good he got some... let's hope there is more to come.

Unlike many who seem to have vested interest in the outcome of this "scam" I do not. I think that gives me a different perspective than most who post here. Maybe being a NUB in this case is a good thing. Seems as if many people simply enjoy stirring the pot or are wildly over invested making claims and statements that have no basis if fact. Speculation is no matter how reasoned is still speculation. The guys from Avalon had experience had shipped other units in the past and have had a long history in Bitcoin. Why would I jump on board with the rest of the naysayers? Better to be pessimistic and as well informed as possible rather than speculating wildly with no evidence. They shipped... so just wait... that was the right response... considering the amount of information posted by BitSyncom and the track record of BitSyncom one could have easily waited patiently... seems to me there was anxiety produced without any evidence.

[greyhawk]

Does anyone know if Jeff was testing on "test net" without access to the Internet ? Avalon rig, may only be a controller for FPGA mine in China ( it's simple to implement). I know it sounds stupidly  but it should be the last final test. Jeff, if you're reading this, please check it.

Yeah, also what if Avalon's are secretly not miners at all but are instead signalling the K'Thai-Gedek from Proxima Centauri that the time for the strikefleet to march has come?

[nbtcminer]

There is no SCAM.

Ah, nice. You must have quite a bit more information at hand than hundreds of the rest of us. Care to explain?

The consistency of BitSyncom posts warranted the THERE IS NO SCAM comment.

Consistency of a post doesn't mean anything. I could be consistently helpful for a year and then suddenly become an asshole. That doesn't mean I was / will always be right on what I'm saying. I only felt the need to come back and defend myself (since I'm one of those who was a doubter) since the situation up to yesterday was doubtful at best and scammy at worst. A good business leader / marketer/ customer will walk away from this whole mess having learned that:

1.) As a business representative, you shouldn't tell the public one thing and then not live up to it; it breeds distrust. (I'm talking about the live demo)

2.) Doing a second round of orders (100% down) before anyone gets round one is probably a bad idea. We're still in the wildwest of BTC mining here and anything that smells like a scam has to scrutinized for others to know about.

3.) Business reps should not take things personally and get angry over accusations that their product isn't shipping / no one has it yet. The whole lack of tracking numbers / JGarzik not knowing where his package was lead to a lot of people getting concerned over (what has now turned out to be) nothing.

Now I have already applauded BitSyncom and team Avalon on shipping their first unit and I look forward to them shipping more units from Batch 1 & 2. However that doesn't mean that my concerns as a customer wasn't warranted or justified; it just means I'm less worried now that there is more proof in the market that their products exist and work. Cavet Emptor ("Buyer Beware") is a motto has served buyers for centuries and will likely do so well into our future. You should consider the feelings of the other side and see that their actions might not have been malicious but actually that of worried current or potential customers.

[Bicknellski]

There is no SCAM.

Ah, nice. You must have quite a bit more information at hand than hundreds of the rest of us. Care to explain?

The consistency of BitSyncom posts warranted the THERE IS NO SCAM comment.

Consistency of a post doesn't mean anything. I could be consistently helpful for a year and then suddenly become an asshole. That doesn't mean I was / will always be right on what I'm saying. I only felt the need to come back and defend myself (since I'm one of those who was a doubter) since the situation up to yesterday was doubtful at best and scammy at worst. A good business leader / marketer/ customer will walk away from this whole mess having learned that:

1.) As a business representative, you shouldn't tell the public one thing and then not live up to it; it breeds distrust. (I'm talking about the live demo)

2.) Doing a second round of orders (100% down) before anyone gets round one is probably a bad idea. We're still in the wildwest of BTC mining here and anything that smells like a scam has to scrutinized for others to know about.

3.) Business reps should not take things personally and get angry over accusations that their product isn't shipping / no one has it yet. The whole lack of tracking numbers / JGarzik not knowing where his package was lead to a lot of people getting concerned over (what has now turned out to be) nothing.

Now I have already applauded BitSyncom and team Avalon on shipping their first unit and I look forward to them shipping more units from Batch 1 & 2. However that doesn't mean that my concerns as a customer wasn't warranted or justified; it just means I'm less worried now that there is more proof in the market that their products exist and work. Cavet Emptor ("Buyer Beware") is a motto has served buyers for centuries and will likely do so well into our future. You should consider the feelings of the other side and see that their actions might not have been malicious but actually that of worried current or potential customers.

Could careless who is offended. The posts put forth a good argument that Avalon was capable and knowlegable and had a history in Bitcoin. Those who seemed to fan the flames of doubt based all their concerns on nothing more than speculation. Again too many of you people seem overly invested in BFL camp or the AVALON camp to really get any perspective. Again I posted yesterday that it is buyer beware... and that is a risk you can make if you know that losing 1500 USD is ok. It is laughable how many different theories were put out as to why Avalon hadn't shipped yet. Laughable. It was pure entertainment but you know what. BitSyncom wasn't laughing... he got pissed and that is understandable given the number of purely idiotic posts and accusations that were made. If you can't see that then you are part of the problem I guess.

[axus]

I posted in the Avalon apology thread.  I was wrong, they didn't scam anyone.  However, it remains to be seen how they handle problems with the initial units.  But now people can place an order knowing that it's possible, and very likely that they will not be ripped off.

[Bicknellski]

There is no evidence whether BFL or Avalon are scams.

They both could be, they both could not be.

But, I don't agree with throwing one under the bus for that reason without solid evidence.

Why can't we wait a week to see if anyone receives an ASIC before making these types of threads?

Not everyone wanted to speculate... some seemed to agree that being patient was the right tactic.

[Korbman]

What does having a one month old account have to do with making an assessment based on the characteristics of the posts being made?

[...]

I don't get why people would immediately jump to wild speculation considering the measured way things progressed in the forum posts.

Seems you just answered your own question..though I'm still unsure if you're a puppet account or not. Anyway, I was pointing out that a lack of substantial existence in this community (as in any community really) generally leads to naive posts...solely because you haven't become as skeptical as the rest of us. The world of Bitcoin isn't nearly as forgiving as a regulated market.

The consistency of BitSyncom posts warranted the THERE IS NO SCAM comment.

Consistency of a post doesn't mean anything. I could be consistently helpful for a year and then suddenly become an asshole. That doesn't mean I was / will always be right on what I'm saying. I only felt the need to come back and defend myself (since I'm one of those who was a doubter) since the situation up to yesterday was doubtful at best and scammy at worst. A good business leader / marketer/ customer will walk away from this whole mess having learned that:

1.) As a business representative, you shouldn't tell the public one thing and then not live up to it; it breeds distrust. (I'm talking about the live demo)

2.) Doing a second round of orders (100% down) before anyone gets round one is probably a bad idea. We're still in the wildwest of BTC mining here and anything that smells like a scam has to scrutinized for others to know about.

3.) Business reps should not take things personally and get angry over accusations that their product isn't shipping / no one has it yet. The whole lack of tracking numbers / JGarzik not knowing where his package was lead to a lot of people getting concerned over (what has now turned out to be) nothing.

Now I have already applauded BitSyncom and team Avalon on shipping their first unit and I look forward to them shipping more units from Batch 1 & 2. However that doesn't mean that my concerns as a customer wasn't warranted or justified; it just means I'm less worried now that there is more proof in the market that their products exist and work. Cavet Emptor ("Buyer Beware") is a motto has served buyers for centuries and will likely do so well into our future. You should consider the feelings of the other side and see that their actions might not have been malicious but actually that of worried current or potential customers.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

[creativex]

There is no SCAM.

Ah, nice. You must have quite a bit more information at hand than hundreds of the rest of us. Care to explain?

The consistency of BitSyncom posts warranted the THERE IS NO SCAM comment.

Consistency of a post doesn't mean anything. I could be consistently helpful for a year and then suddenly become an asshole. That doesn't mean I was / will always be right on what I'm saying. I only felt the need to come back and defend myself (since I'm one of those who was a doubter) since the situation up to yesterday was doubtful at best and scammy at worst. A good business leader / marketer/ customer will walk away from this whole mess having learned that:

1.) As a business representative, you shouldn't tell the public one thing and then not live up to it; it breeds distrust. (I'm talking about the live demo)

2.) Doing a second round of orders (100% down) before anyone gets round one is probably a bad idea. We're still in the wildwest of BTC mining here and anything that smells like a scam has to scrutinized for others to know about.

3.) Business reps should not take things personally and get angry over accusations that their product isn't shipping / no one has it yet. The whole lack of tracking numbers / JGarzik not knowing where his package was lead to a lot of people getting concerned over (what has now turned out to be) nothing.

Now I have already applauded BitSyncom and team Avalon on shipping their first unit and I look forward to them shipping more units from Batch 1 & 2. However that doesn't mean that my concerns as a customer wasn't warranted or justified; it just means I'm less worried now that there is more proof in the market that their products exist and work. Cavet Emptor ("Buyer Beware") is a motto has served buyers for centuries and will likely do so well into our future. You should consider the feelings of the other side and see that their actions might not have been malicious but actually that of worried current or potential customers.

Excellent post. There's nothing you can count on to protect you in this wide open BTC market aside from your own common sense. A large dose of skepticism is a survival necessity here. Though I'm pleased things have taken a turn for the better, Avalon was behaving in a very unprofessional manner and they had the criticism coming IMO.

[crazyates]

Though I'm pleased things have taken a turn for the better, Avalon was behaving in a very unprofessional manner and they had the criticism coming IMO.

Was? Past tense? I was relieved when they postponed the 2nd batch orders. They literally have 1 unit in customer's hands. One. Uno. Lets see a majority of those 300 units shipped, and then talk about a 2nd batch.

[creativex]

Though I'm pleased things have taken a turn for the better, Avalon was behaving in a very unprofessional manner and they had the criticism coming IMO.

Was? Past tense? I was relieved when they postponed the 2nd batch orders. They literally have 1 unit in customer's hands. One. Uno. Lets see a majority of those 300 units shipped, and then talk about a 2nd batch.

Interesting. By that logic BFL should immediately suspend new orders until they have SOMETHING shipped.

ONE >>>>>> ZERO

[creativex]

You're going to hate the third batch then.

[crazyates]

Though I'm pleased things have taken a turn for the better, Avalon was behaving in a very unprofessional manner and they had the criticism coming IMO.

Was? Past tense? I was relieved when they postponed the 2nd batch orders. They literally have 1 unit in customer's hands. One. Uno. Lets see a majority of those 300 units shipped, and then talk about a 2nd batch.

Interesting. By that logic BFL should immediately suspend new orders until they have SOMETHING shipped.

ONE >>>>>> ZERO

Well first, BFL isn't doing things in batches like Avalon is. And even if they were, and had only shipped one unit, I'd be saying the same thing. Until there is a large percentage of purchased units in customer's hands, why are they actively pursuing more sales?

[creativex]

Though I'm pleased things have taken a turn for the better, Avalon was behaving in a very unprofessional manner and they had the criticism coming IMO.

Was? Past tense? I was relieved when they postponed the 2nd batch orders. They literally have 1 unit in customer's hands. One. Uno. Lets see a majority of those 300 units shipped, and then talk about a 2nd batch.

Interesting. By that logic BFL should immediately suspend new orders until they have SOMETHING shipped.

ONE >>>>>> ZERO

Well first, BFL isn't doing things in batches like Avalon is. And even if they were, and had only shipped one unit, I'd be saying the same thing. Until there is a large percentage of purchased units in customer's hands, why are they actively pursuing more sales?

WHAT?

Just because BFL is a bottomless batch 1 pit makes it okay for them to soak up millions in pre-orders over the course of EIGHT MONTHS without delivering anything but t-shirts and coffee mugs, but bad on Avalon for opening a 2nd batch(900 units total) whilst only having confirmed shipping one working ASIC unit?

Blatantly double standard much?

[mrb]

- "the whole forum was sure this was a scam" -> On the contrary, if you read the forums carefully you will find a very small number of critics with no credibility, and/or a history of trolling, making a lot of posts, but there is a much larger number of supporters (older accounts with more credence) who only defend ASIC vendors occasionally. The mere fact that BFL has so many preorders proves the large number of believers/supporters (and yes some of these customers in line are here just for the quick money and have no idea of the risks) - this is one of the reasons I say you are misinformed, because you failed to distinguish the general opinion of the forum members - but this is not your fault - it takes a lot of time to sift through the posts to filter out who can be trusted, who has the credentials, what information is important, etc

Actually it's been the opposite in this case. A number of veterans here cast doubt over Avalon as a result of their sudden "BFL like" behavior, which is a lot more than I can say about the nonsense that surrounded BFL for quite some time. Avalon started out with some transparency, but when it came time to package and ship they suddenly went secretive. That's never usually a good sign, and resulted in quite a bit of reasonable unease. It was the "newbie" accounts that kept popping up noting Avalon wasn't a scam and that we were overreacting.

Given the information (or lack thereof) we had available to us, I found the unease and pessimistic speculation justified, if not warranted. People can only make informed decisions with information...take that away and we're left with our imaginations.

 Well, what can I say... you were wrong too about interpreting the forum's general opinion. "The number of veterans" who casted doubt about Avalon were almost all posters with no credibitily, no trust, and a history of trolling and making wrong guesses. Just because someone is a veteran (has a high post count) does not mean he can be trusted.

I challenge you to list 5 trusted veterans who expressed a high certainty that Avalon was a scam -> you will not find any.

That's a skill you have to learn on a forum like this: determining who can be trusted in what they say/think vs. who is uninformed. A good starting point is to look at how dark the poster's "ignore" link is (the darker = the more persons chose to ignore him because what he says is not valuable).

[Korbman]

I challenge you to list 5 trusted veterans who expressed a high certainty that Avalon was a scam -> you will not find any.

You're exactly right, I won't find any "trusted veterans" based on your criteria of "high certainty". As you may have missed, I believe I phrased it like this:

A number of veterans here cast doubt over Avalon as a result of their sudden "BFL like" behavior [...]

You seem to be under the impression that this particular phrase is a synonym for "high certainty", which is far from the case and a probable cause for your confusion.

[crazyates]

Though I'm pleased things have taken a turn for the better, Avalon was behaving in a very unprofessional manner and they had the criticism coming IMO.

Was? Past tense? I was relieved when they postponed the 2nd batch orders. They literally have 1 unit in customer's hands. One. Uno. Lets see a majority of those 300 units shipped, and then talk about a 2nd batch.

Interesting. By that logic BFL should immediately suspend new orders until they have SOMETHING shipped.

ONE >>>>>> ZERO

Well first, BFL isn't doing things in batches like Avalon is. And even if they were, and had only shipped one unit, I'd be saying the same thing. Until there is a large percentage of purchased units in customer's hands, why are they actively pursuing more sales?

WHAT?

Just because BFL is a bottomless batch 1 pit makes it okay for them to soak up millions in pre-orders over the course of EIGHT MONTHS without delivering anything but t-shirts and coffee mugs, but bad on Avalon for opening a 2nd batch(900 units total) whilst only having confirmed shipping one working ASIC unit?

Blatantly double standard much?

I can see how it can sound hypocritical, but that's not the way I intended that to sound.

BFL is continuously accepting pre-orders, even tho they haven't shipped yet, I get that. However, Josh's interactions here and on the BFL forums have been large in response to current customers (and trolls, but we won't go there). I haven't seen them actively trying to get new customers. In fact, Josh has said that when their Single do ship, the product will speak for itself.

But then we get Avalon, who was supposed to be opening pre-orders for Batch 2, with some very severe stipulations: 1) They had only shipped 1 product to 1 customer. 2) BTC only (aka no cc chargebacks). 3) No refunds, under any circumstance. Those 3 just made it sound a lil fishy, and I was glad when they postponed. Postponing gives #1 time to hopefully fix itself, and maybe they'd consider #2, or at the very least #3.

[king_pin]

My personal opinion is that:

Jeff is in on the AVALON scam too.

He mysteriously receives it in the last moment, so he doesn't have time to make a proper review.
NOW, 24 hours after he received it, all he posts 6 real photos and some shit a kid can do with Photoshop, when he knows there are close to a million $$$ at stake.

[cedivad]

My personal opinion is that:

Jeff is in on the AVALON scam too.

He mysteriously receives it in the last moment, so he doesn't have time to make a proper review.
NOW, 24 hours after he received it, all he posts 6 real photos and some shit a kid can do with Photoshop, when he knows there are close to a million $$$ at stake.

Well, yes, why not? After all, we have only seen a single unit. Over 300, one.

BUT.

What's the freaking sense in this to delay the second batch preorder? They could be already between the 2 tropics by now if they didn't stopped the preorder. So, i don't agree this time.

[creativex]

Though I'm pleased things have taken a turn for the better, Avalon was behaving in a very unprofessional manner and they had the criticism coming IMO.

Was? Past tense? I was relieved when they postponed the 2nd batch orders. They literally have 1 unit in customer's hands. One. Uno. Lets see a majority of those 300 units shipped, and then talk about a 2nd batch.

Interesting. By that logic BFL should immediately suspend new orders until they have SOMETHING shipped.

ONE >>>>>> ZERO

Well first, BFL isn't doing things in batches like Avalon is. And even if they were, and had only shipped one unit, I'd be saying the same thing. Until there is a large percentage of purchased units in customer's hands, why are they actively pursuing more sales?

WHAT?

Just because BFL is a bottomless batch 1 pit makes it okay for them to soak up millions in pre-orders over the course of EIGHT MONTHS without delivering anything but t-shirts and coffee mugs, but bad on Avalon for opening a 2nd batch(900 units total) whilst only having confirmed shipping one working ASIC unit?

Blatantly double standard much?

I can see how it can sound hypocritical, but that's not the way I intended that to sound.

BFL is continuously accepting pre-orders, even tho they haven't shipped yet, I get that. However, Josh's interactions here and on the BFL forums have been large in response to current customers (and trolls, but we won't go there). I haven't seen them actively trying to get new customers. In fact, Josh has said that when their Single do ship, the product will speak for itself.

But then we get Avalon, who was supposed to be opening pre-orders for Batch 2, with some very severe stipulations: 1) They had only shipped 1 product to 1 customer. 2) BTC only (aka no cc chargebacks). 3) No refunds, under any circumstance. Those 3 just made it sound a lil fishy, and I was glad when they postponed. Postponing gives #1 time to hopefully fix itself, and maybe they'd consider #2, or at the very least #3.

Just because Josh defines nearly everyone that finds fault with BFL as a troll doesn't make it so, regardless how much he blows on advertising. Yes advertising. Just how much *IS* BFL spending to advertise their vaporware before they've shipped anything at all? Wanna bet it's several times what Avalon is spending? ...this despite the fact that Avalon has shipped an ASIC product and BFL well...they do have some boxed up fans, though they're not for sale yet. I don't see a lot of Avalon signatures bought off either...BFL on the other hand...

CES? How much was spent for BFL to advertise their non-shipping ASIC products there? Why do they keep pumping the ad budget when they have as many shipping ASICs as I do? Let's at least apply the same standards.

I'm also not pleased with Avalon's no refund BTC only policies.

[crazyates]

Just because Josh defines nearly everyone that finds fault with BFL as a troll doesn't make it so, regardless how much he blows on advertising.

I'm also not pleased with Avalon's no refund BTC only policies.

No I'm not saying everyone who has valid concerns about BFL is a troll. I'm saying you take yourself, PL, and smoothie out of the BFL thread, and it wouldn't have had to be split by the mods and started over. That's what I consider trolling.

[creativex]

Right. Open discussion is fine as long as it's favorable to companies that advertise on bitcointalk.org. Check.

I'd have avoided the part about BFL still advertising like mad without shipping anything if I were you too btw. What kin ya say? Now there's some sketchy business tactics.

[crazyearner]

My personal opinion is that:

Jeff is in on the AVALON scam too.

He mysteriously receives it in the last moment, so he doesn't have time to make a proper review.
NOW, 24 hours after he received it, all he posts 6 real photos and some shit a kid can do with Photoshop, when he knows there are close to a million $$$ at stake.

Do you even read or even talk in irc chat with him posting status the thing is real and not doctored Photoshop images. He posted starts connected to slush pool mining and the intire mining army on their confirmed his status and connection and detials of it.

GO troll somewhere else or learn to read up on posts, threads, chats and facts before shouting FAKE.The product is real. However remains to be said who else actually has one and the location to 299 more.

Even I know this could well be a ta-ticket to get others to buy into it and still be a scam. 1 unit is proof that hardware can be manufactured to make such items. But the main question is whee are the videos, other customers that bought where are they with theirs. They are still indeed a lot of questions unanswered however time will tell.

If customers start popping up and making videos and sending their proof in that they have then am all buy buy but, but until theirs more out their and solid proof of 300 actually running around and not just 1 box then I will up hold my verdict until theirs more proof. 1 BOX AND DEVELOPED ON BTC IS FAVORITISM MUCH

[Unacceptable]

Right. Open discussion is fine as long as it's favorable to companies that advertise on bitcointalk.org. Check.

I'd have avoided the part about BFL still advertising like mad without shipping anything if I were you too btw. What kin ya say? Now there's some sketchy business tactics.

But....BFL hasn't said "Units have shipped!!!",so we all know they are still working on them & no one is expecting delivery.Avalon customers were told "We're shipping!!!" & only 1 has recieved a unit.Are there more in transit   No one knows.....................Thats the main beef,no info or communication about the other 298 units (2 were shipped from Avalon per thier post).

[king_pin]

I know we have no reason to doubt him accept he is human!
Now honestly wouldn't you lie if they offered you lets say 100 000$ or 10% of the whole scam?
And dude u are really simple if you believe things that a people say on irc, forums etc. if there are money involved.

[repentance]

I know we have no reason to doubt him accept he is human!
Now honestly wouldn't you lie if they offered you lets say 100 000$ or 10% of the whole scam?
And dude u are really simple if you believe things that a people say on irc, forums etc. if there are money involved.

Stop spamming the same post in every Avalon thread.  If you weren't so busy spamming you'd know that Bitcoin Foundation has posted a video of their Avalon unit in action.

Thats the main beef,no info or communication about the other 298 units (2 were shipped from Avalon per thier post).

This might change now.  It looks like the delivery of the first two units was intended to coincide with Yifu's 23rd birthday (Jeff already posted that he wasn't meant to get his yesterday) and the announcement that Batch 2 units will have room for 6 boards. 

[king_pin]

Stop spamming the same post in every Avalon thread.  If you weren't so busy spamming you'd know that Bitcoin Foundation has posted a video of their Avalon unit in action.

Please post a link with the video, I can't find it.  

WoW I found it - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mk_c3QE_1aE
You call this a video
Well it is better than nothing, I agree, might convince me soon

[repentance]

Please post a link with the video, I can't find it. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mk_c3QE_1aE&feature=youtu.be

[FreeMoney]

If it is a scam it's a really really good one.

[dree12]

If it is a scam it's a really really good one.

They had to get Bitcoin Foundation into the scam. So that's the entire core developer team, BitInstant, Mt. Gox, and a whole lot more. Wow.

[creativex]

Right. Open discussion is fine as long as it's favorable to companies that advertise on bitcointalk.org. Check.

I'd have avoided the part about BFL still advertising like mad without shipping anything if I were you too btw. What kin ya say? Now there's some sketchy business tactics.

But....BFL hasn't said "Units have shipped!!!",so we all know they are still working on them & no one is expecting delivery.Avalon customers were told "We're shipping!!!" & only 1 has recieved a unit.Are there more in transit   No one knows.....................Thats the main beef,no info or communication about the other 298 units (2 were shipped from Avalon per thier post).

Correct. The appropriate BFLism is "We've scheduled shipments for blah blah" because no one can prove you haven't scheduled a shipment.

[bce]

Stop spamming the same post in every Avalon thread.  If you weren't so busy spamming you'd know that Bitcoin Foundation has posted a video of their Avalon unit in action.

Please post a link with the video, I can't find it.  

WoW I found it - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mk_c3QE_1aE
You call this a video
Well it is better than nothing, I agree, might convince me soon

Kingpin is in on it! 

[king_pin]

LOL
Yeah they may need a person like me so they look more real.
But I still don't understand why don't they post some undeniable proof, and make me and people like me sthu one and forever.
Until that moment comes I still say its a scam, or at least they are lying to some extend, just like BFL, and today a new delay was posted about batch 2. Why?

[Korbman]

But I still don't understand why don't they post some undeniable proof, and make me and people like me sthu one and forever.

They've tried...but you keep letting your paranoia get the best of you

[Beepbop]

There are still people who claim that 9/11 didn't happen, or was a controlled demoloition, and no amount of evidence will convince them otherwise. Likewise for the Moon landings. Every new piece of evidence is just something to be explained away with handwaving and ever more complex Ptolemaic models of the Solar System, and then ignored and conveniently forgotten about in the next discussion thread. Real Internet super-Herros they are.

[creativex]

There are still people who claim that 9/11 didn't happen, or was a controlled demoloition, and no amount of evidence will convince them otherwise. Likewise for the Moon landings. Every new piece of evidence is just something to be explained away with handwaving and ever more complex Ptolemaic models of the Solar System, and then ignored and conveniently forgotten about in the next discussion thread. Real Internet super-Herros they are.

Might have something to do with WTC7 bud...unless you really believe a small office fire can cause a steel framed skyscraper to enter physically impossible freefall and collapse on it's own footprint. If you do believe that, I'd like to sell you a bridge.

LOL
Yeah they may need a person like me so they look more real.
But I still don't understand why don't they post some undeniable proof, and make me and people like me sthu one and forever.
Until that moment comes I still say its a scam, or at least they are lying to some extend, just like BFL, and today a new delay was posted about batch 2. Why?

Seems the only proof you'll accept is for everyone at bitcoin foundation to drive their new 88Gh Avalon to your home, hook it up for you, and hash for you.

https://bitcoinfoundation.org/blog/?p=112

They exist man...get over it.

As to batch 2 they're still changing specs. This update occurred while I was typing what appears ^^ up there.

Modular Layout
Avalon units are capable of holding up to fourmultiple hashing modules. These modules are independent; three come preinstalled, one upgrade slot is available. and upgrade slot(s) is available.

The new spec seems to call for 6 slots and not 4.

[Beepbop]

Might have something to do with WTC7 bud...

Might have something to do with WTC 1 and 2 not exactly falling in on their footprint, but more like throwing tons of debris into WTC 7, thus weakening it, and then setting it on fire. And then falling with no faster than Earth gravity would predict. If you want to take this to another thread, feel free. But for the purposes of this thread:
QED to my post, some people have fixed ideas and will never be convinced by any evidence.

[tvbcof]

There are still people who claim that 9/11 didn't happen, or was a controlled demoloition, and no amount of evidence will convince them otherwise. Likewise for the Moon landings. Every new piece of evidence is just something to be explained away with handwaving and ever more complex Ptolemaic models of the Solar System, and then ignored and conveniently forgotten about in the next discussion thread. Real Internet super-Herros they are.

For my part, I find the moon landing doubt rather absurd.  OTOH, the hypothesis that some Muslims in some caves half way around the world pulled off is 9/11 much much weaker then that it was organized largely by a handful of people who had significant influence over systems in the US.  Over the decade, the latter hypothesis is simply proven to be much better at explaining the observations of the event.

[Beepbop]

Terrorists - including the ones in this case - tend to be educated people and from the upper middle class. Their mindset might be from the Middle Ages, but their tactics and technology are not. Jews will be blamed for Bitcoin if it ever becomes successful. Mark my words.

[creativex]

Might have something to do with WTC7 bud...

Might have something to do with WTC 1 and 2 not exactly falling in on their footprint, but more like throwing tons of debris into WTC 7, thus weakening it, and then setting it on fire. And then falling with no faster than Earth gravity would predict. If you want to take this to another thread, feel free. But for the purposes of this thread:
QED to my post, some people have fixed ideas and will never be convinced by any evidence.

The idea of debris weakening it so it could fall directly through the path of greatest resistance(str8 down) at the maximum acceleration allowed by the earth's gravitational pull is so absurd I find it insulting that you even bothered to type it. How can tons and tons of steel and concrete offer ZERO resistance? The answer is painfully obvious btw. If that's all you got then there's no point in wasting a thread as claiming the laws of physics didn't apply that day is not evidence.

[tvbcof]

Jews will be blamed for Bitcoin if it ever becomes successful.

They'll probably be blamed if Bitcoin fails as well.  What can ya do?

[superfastkyle]

The thing that bothers me the most about this so called proof is, the reason most of you believe avalon delivered as fact is because a reputable member is telling you so. Have you not learned anything? From Bitcoinica's owners running off with a half million, pirate (who everyone vouched for) $5 million plus theft, theymos trying to sell worthless stock, Nefario's bullshit, Patrick's bullshit, Matthews bet failure. I don't believe anyone on this forum and I'm not going to start anytime soon.

[Tamerz]

The thing that bothers me the most about this so called proof is, the reason most of you believe avalon delivered as fact is because a reputable member is telling you so. Have you not learned anything? From Bitcoinica's owners running off with a half million, pirate (who everyone vouched for) $5 million plus theft, theymos trying to sell worthless stock, Nefario's bullshit, Patrick's bullshit, Matthews bet failure. I don't believe anyone on this forum and I'm not going to start anytime soon.

I understand your point, but I think it was completely obvious that pirate was a ponzie scheme. Everyone seemed to know it, they just went with it due to greed. There was no technical reason to believe it was true. It was a straight up "just trust me".

The Avalon ASIC on the other hand does not seem far fetched by any means. The technology seems completely novice compared to the rest of the devices we see now days. It just took a lot of investment to make it even worth trying for this particular application.

[king_pin]

Might have something to do with WTC7 bud...unless you really believe a small office fire can cause a steel framed skyscraper to enter physically impossible freefall and collapse on it's own footprint. If you do believe that, I'd like to sell you a bridge.

I agree here totally btw.

Seems the only proof you'll accept is for everyone at bitcoin foundation to drive their new 88Gh Avalon to your home, hook it up for you, and hash for you.

And Nope they don't have to bring it, although I'd love that, just make a nice video showing everything (not some 23 second crap from a YouTube profile that was made the same day), or when someone else, who isn't on AVALON's payroll posts a nice video, or 10 people post crappy videos

[Justin00]

I believe the little man that lives inside the fridge who turns the light on and off might also be in on the 'scam'.
Everyone PLEASE check your fridges today.

[dust]

The thing that bothers me the most about this so called proof is, the reason most of you believe avalon delivered as fact is because a reputable member is telling you so. Have you not learned anything? From Bitcoinica's owners running off with a half million, pirate (who everyone vouched for) $5 million plus theft, theymos trying to sell worthless stock, Nefario's bullshit, Patrick's bullshit, Matthews bet failure. I don't believe anyone on this forum and I'm not going to start anytime soon.

The only people who vouched for pirate were in the "lending" business, ran PPTs, or were invested with pirate.
The Bitcoin Foundation and Jeff Garzik are much more trustworthy than any previous scammer.  When has a core dev scammed anyone, or vouched for a scammer?

I am willing to bet Avalon will deliver.  Want to take me up on it?

[firefop]

Let's assume Jeff isn't in on it.

That still doesn't mean it's legit.

He's got a box with spinning fans - that he's pointed at a pool or bitcoind somewhere... whats to stop that machine from relaying this information to an fpga or gpu farm in wherever and them turning on the mining for him.

Sanity requires additional verification from multiple sources.

Until we ~300 users saying "hey I got mine and it's working right now" the jury is still out on Avalon.

[RoadStress]

The amount of retardness on this forum is amaizing!

[Phinnaeus Gage]

There are still people who claim that 9/11 didn't happen, or was a controlled demoloition, and no amount of evidence will convince them otherwise. Likewise for the Moon landings. Every new piece of evidence is just something to be explained away with handwaving and ever more complex Ptolemaic models of the Solar System, and then ignored and conveniently forgotten about in the next discussion thread. Real Internet super-Herros they are.

911 controlled demolition: I believe.
Fake moon landings: I don't believe.
Face on Mars: I used to believe.
2012 doomsday: I never believed.
JFK having more than I one shooter: I believe.
Sandy Hook: 50/50 believe.
BFL delivers: 98.6% believe.
Avalon is not a scam: 98.6% believe.
theymos has sockpuppet(s) as mod(s): 50/50 believe. (apologies to theymos for this one)

[king_pin]

911 controlled demolition: I believe.
Fake moon landings: I don't believe, but some pics were modified.
Face on Mars: I don't believe.
2012 doomsday: I believed.
JFK having more than I one shooter: I believe.
Sandy Hook: IDK what this is
BFL delivers: 90% believe.
Avalon is not a scam: 90% believe.
But I believe that they are lying about what state of production they are in now. They have some crappy prototype, IDK if there are actually more than one, and they post pics of it, first with 3 than with 4 modules and a vid in which you cant actually see what is making those 80+GH/s

+American government knew about Perl Harbor: I believe

[fcmatt]

Let's assume Jeff isn't in on it.

That still doesn't mean it's legit.

He's got a box with spinning fans - that he's pointed at a pool or bitcoind somewhere... whats to stop that machine from relaying this information to an fpga or gpu farm in wherever and them turning on the mining for him.

Sanity requires additional verification from multiple sources.

Until we ~300 users saying "hey I got mine and it's working right now" the jury is still out on Avalon.

Agreed.

If BitSynCom has indeed been shipping ~12 units/day since 20 Jan-- some units should start arriving in Customers' hands soon.

It would be very unfortunate if BitSynCom is simply using jgarzik and the bitcoin foundation to garner more trust just in aim to take more Batch #2 orders with no intent to deliver anything at all...

Time will tell.

Nah. He delivered a working device. It is not vaporware. He has delivered 3 diff products now. He is legit.

[cedivad]

There are still people who claim that 9/11 didn't happen, or was a controlled demoloition, and no amount of evidence will convince them otherwise. Likewise for the Moon landings. Every new piece of evidence is just something to be explained away with handwaving and ever more complex Ptolemaic models of the Solar System, and then ignored and conveniently forgotten about in the next discussion thread. Real Internet super-Herros they are.

911 controlled demolition: I believe.
Fake moon landings: I don't believe. => me, unsure
Face on Mars: I used to believe. => never belived
2012 doomsday: I never believed.
JFK having more than I one shooter: I believe.
Avalon is not a scam: 98.6% believe.

God, we are the same...

[SysRun]

make an apology and close the thread. on to the next potential scam.

[cedivad]

make an apology and close the thread. on to the next potential scam.

Already did my apology, can't close the thread.

[crazyates]

can't close the thread.

Yes, you can. It's called locking.

[flatronw]

Discard the hyperbole and review what little has actually happened to date:  

1:-As it seems to stand at the moment we have only 2 or 3 confirmed Avalons “in the wild”  One of those was shipped “express” to an individual who has a “high profile” within the BTC community,  assuring widest exposure of its release and performance. Consider what would be the cost to produce 2 or 3 “one-off” prototypes.

2:-To date, there appears to be nobody else posting with great glee, that they have their Shipping Number or a shipping confirmation. Avalon is reticent about if they will actually ship the complete first batch before Chinese New Year

3:-There is still, as always, very limited communication from Avalon themselves. They are far from forthcoming. Just feeding tid-bits as necessary to keep the ball rolling. That is apart from the opening of the second release orders. Stressing-”no proof” “no refund” “Bitcoin only”

4:-The second tranche of orders is sold out in 24 hrs - 600 units @US$1500 =  US$900,000.00 All of which is all absolutely non trace-able, non retrievable.
    EDIT: The second tranche is not sold out: Due to issues with Bitwallet. Does anybody seriously expect the second tranche to NOT sell out ASAP?

5:-We are now approaching the Chinese New Year which as Avalon has stressed previously will close them down for two weeks.

The execution of a successful scam relies on creating trust, by taking a small payment and providing  what was initially agreed. Setting the atmosphere of confidence and trust for the “big take”
In addition in this particular scenario, we also have the Chinese New Year just co-incidentally occurring just at the time of the opening and closing of the second batch of orders. Potentially giving two weeks grace for somebody, should they be so disposed to vanish.

I am not saying it is, but I am saying that at this point in time. It is difficult to avoid recognising just how closely this situation fits the criteria of a classic scam.  

[Bogart]

4:-The second tranche of orders is sold out in 24 hrs - 600 units @US$1500 =  US$900,000.00 All of which is all absolutely non trace-able, non retrievable.

Only about 38 units were sold from batch #2.  Not 600.

[jgarzik]

1:-As it seems to stand at the moment we have only 2 or 3 confirmed Avalons “in the wild”  One of those was shipped “express” to an individual who has a “high profile” within the BTC community,  assuring widest exposure of its release and performance. Consider what would be the cost to produce 2 or 3 “one-off” prototypes.
[...]
I am not saying it is, but I am saying that at this point in time. It is difficult to avoid recognising just how closely this situation fits the criteria of a classic scam. 

Yes, consider the cost of producing 2-3 one-off ASIC prototypes...  because apparently you have not done so.

It's about the same as producing 300, in terms of the chips produced.  ASICs have huge setup costs, compared to per-chip costs.

[flatronw]

1:-As it seems to stand at the moment we have only 2 or 3 confirmed Avalons “in the wild”  One of those was shipped “express” to an individual who has a “high profile” within the BTC community,  assuring widest exposure of its release and performance. Consider what would be the cost to produce 2 or 3 “one-off” prototypes.
[...]
I am not saying it is, but I am saying that at this point in time. It is difficult to avoid recognising just how closely this situation fits the criteria of a classic scam. 

Yes, consider the cost of producing 2-3 one-off ASIC prototypes...  because apparently you have not done so.

It's about the same as producing 300, in terms of the chips produced.  ASICs have huge setup costs, compared to per-chip costs.

No I have not and you miss the point. Whatever the cost. Undeniably it would be covered by the amount received in the initial ordering. Even if it took 75% of those initial funds to produce the just 2 or 3 prototypes. At the end of the second phase it still leaves Avalon sitting on over US$1,000,000.00 in totally untraceable, unrecoverable funds.

A considerable chunk of change!