All crypto with an IPO/ICO is trash - no exceptions. Just launch fairly.

[americanpegasus]

I am tired of hearing about some promising new project, taking my valuable time to look up the [ANN] topic, dig around through lots of flashy graphics, only to find the topic creator going on and on about some elaborate and self-masturbatory IPO/ICO scheme.  The defenders of said crypto cry:

"But programmers need to get paid!"

But the sad truth is that if your project really is as revolutionary as you claim, then it will organically grow to the point where just being a natural early adopter will make you fantastically wealthy.  Then when you 'make it' you will have the added bonus of not having your history tainted by some shady early investment scheme.  
  

"But Ethereum did it!"  

I don't care.  With all due respect to Nick Szabo's genius, into the trash it goes.  They should have launched with a clean proof-of-work and a set in stone time for moving to proof-of-stake if they wanted to not have a joke distribution.  Maybe they will go to a jillion dollars per gas, but I won't own a single fart of it for the long haul.  That's not how you launch a world changing currency - that's how you design a scheme to get wealthy.  Crypto is supposed to actually mean something, and getting wealthy is just a side effect.
  
It especially irks me to see actually interesting and innovative projects like Iota's tangle fall victim to this IPO mess.  There are a lot better ways to handle an initial distribution, even for blockchains that technically require it.  The only exception to this rule is micro-premines solely for the purposes of technical testing (like Litecoin's 150 coin micro-premine).  
  
So this is my plea to you, the good programmers of tomorrow: Launch your blockchain with no premine or ICO, and make an honest go at it.  Maybe you fail, and that's ok.  At least your project will fail as an honest project remembered fondly by the community - not some shady pump and dump.

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[ArticMine]

A simple formula is to follow the FinCEN guidance. https://www.fincen.gov/statutes_regs/guidance/html/FIN-2013-G001.html
If
1) It is a centralized virtual currency
and
2) There is no MSB registration by the "Administrator" making the currency non-compliant
then
3) Run

[americanpegasus]

Those rules are hard as fuck to understand, honestly.  But one thing that jumped out at me is the definition of 'administrator'.  Is someone who premines a currency and sells it off in an ICO/IPO an administrator by those definitions? 
 

[ArticMine]

Those rules are hard as fuck to understand, honestly.  But one thing that jumped out at me is the definition of 'administrator'.  Is someone who premines a currency and sells it off in an ICO/IPO an administrator by those definitions?  
  

Yes, that is how I understand the guidance.

The word "pre-mined" was used in the Ripple case

3. The currency of the Ripple network, known as “XRP,” was pre-mined. In  other words, unlike some other virtual currencies, XRP was fully generated prior to its distribution. As of 2015, XRP is the second-largest  cryptocurrency by market capitalization, after Bitcoin.

https://www.fincen.gov/news_room/nr/pdf/Ripple_Facts.pdf

[americanpegasus]

Thanks for that link.  I think we are really lucky these rules are in place.  They are strikingly sane for a government agency, and make sense.  I hope that if the SEC is gonna make something similar, they come out with it sooner rather than later.  Modding several cryptocurrency subreddits makes me wonder if I am considered 'held to a higher standard' than an average buyer/seller of crypto, and some statement either way would be nice: "we don't care", "we intend to regulate this at some point, but are figuring out what we want to do", or "here is what we are considering implementing".  I'm sure some devs wonder the same thing.  
  
It's hard to remember, but back in 2011 (ish) there was a time when people didn't know if the US was gonna swoop in any day and outlaw all cryptocurrency.  The early adopters of Bitcoin didn't get rich without losing a few years off their life due to stress.

[ArticMine]

Thanks for that link.  I think we are really lucky these rules are in place.  They are strikingly sane for a government agency, and make sense.  I hope that if the SEC is gonna make something similar, they come out with it sooner rather than later.  Modding several cryptocurrency subreddits makes me wonder if I am considered 'held to a higher standard' than an average buyer/seller of crypto, and some statement either way would be nice: "we don't care", "we intend to regulate this at some point, but are figuring out what we want to do", or "here is what we are considering implementing".  I'm sure some devs wonder the same thing.  
  
It's to hard to remember, but back in 2011 (ish) there was a time when people didn't know if the US was gonna swoop in any day and outlaw all cryptocurrency.  The early adopters of Bitcoin didn't get rich without losing a few years off their life due to stress.

I doubt the SEC is going to give guidance here. We must keep in mind that they argued Bitcoin was effectively money in the Trendon Shavers' (pirateat40) case. I do not see how they can argue that a de-centralized (FinCEN definition) is a security. Who is the issuer of the said security? As for centralized virtual currencies I see an Administrator who is not registered as an MSB having serious problems first with FinCEN, In addition there may be problems with the SEC.  

Edit. If I feel a crypto currency is a centralized virtual currency as per FinCEN I avoid it, so I do not get to the point of evaluating if in addition there are also issues with the SEC.

[AliceWonderMiscreations]

I agree with this.

A fair launch should have at least 90 days notice including documentation on what your coin does that makes it worthwhile - no premine, no instamine.

Quark almost got it right but then I found out they had huge rewards at the beginning which gave extra rewards to the very earliest adopters, that wasn't a premine but same concept, and so I bailed on it. Now I realize there were other issues with it as well.

But anyway - yes, I want a fair launch which means time to look at what the coin does before the launch.

[kelsey]

lets for a moment talk about the (perhaps idealistic) world where p2p currency's are indifferent to regulation, in this world IPO/ICO are equally trash and should be avoided as they are against one of the main reasons p2p currency's should arise in the first place (but thats lost on the get rich quick crowd that now plagues this community).

[americanpegasus]

Edit. If I feel a crypto currency is a centralized virtual currency as per FinCEN I avoid it, so I do not get to the point of evaluating if in addition there are also issues with the SEC.

I just remembered that there is an actual company behind zerocash who is also taking a devmine.  It should be interesting to see where in the FinCEN guidance this behavior will fall.

lets for a moment talk about the (perhaps idealistic) world where p2p currency's are indifferent to regulation, in this world IPO/ICO are equally trash and should be avoided as they are against one of the main reasons p2p currency's should arise in the first place (but thats lost on the get rich quick crowd that now plagues this community).

Why don't we get a list of legitimate, non-premine, non-ICO/IPO coins and put it in the OP?  If I miss any, let me know.  Off the top of my head I can think of things like Bitcoin, Litecoin, Namecoin, Primecoin, Monero, Aeon, Boolberry, Dogecoin....

[kelsey]

Why don't we get a list of legitimate, non-premine, non-ICO/IPO coins and put it in the OP?  If I miss any, let me know.  Off the top of my head I can think of things like Bitcoin, Litecoin, Namecoin, Primecoin, Monero, Aeon, Boolberry, Dogecoin....

i'd agree, there is certainly a ton of fairly launched cryptos, enough that no one needs to be supporting these ICOs, premined etc coins.

[cryptohunter]

Edit. If I feel a crypto currency is a centralized virtual currency as per FinCEN I avoid it, so I do not get to the point of evaluating if in addition there are also issues with the SEC.

I just remembered that there is an actual company behind zerocash who is also taking a devmine.  It should be interesting to see where in the FinCEN guidance this behavior will fall.

lets for a moment talk about the (perhaps idealistic) world where p2p currency's are indifferent to regulation, in this world IPO/ICO are equally trash and should be avoided as they are against one of the main reasons p2p currency's should arise in the first place (but thats lost on the get rich quick crowd that now plagues this community).

Why don't we get a list of legitimate, non-premine, non-ICO/IPO coins and put it in the OP?  If I miss any, let me know.  Off the top of my head I can think of things like Bitcoin, Litecoin, Namecoin, Primecoin, Monero, Aeon, Boolberry, Dogecoin....

Yep do it. MS is getting in bed with some real insta ico scams lately. I wonder if they would boot them out if they'd known about their shady origins.

Put the good and the bad so everyone can see it.

I was there at the Very start of over 100 POW coins. There was only really one fully successful and fair launch. Everything went correct and to plan. Launched exactly on time as advertised. Wallet rar password given to everyone at the same time. Diff went mad as everyone jumped on in the first seconds. Nobody could get more than their fair share. That coin sadly died. It was however a perfect example of how to launch a POW coin.

All you have mentioned are far more fair than most of the ICO coins though.

[mr.smith]

I agree with this.

A fair launch should have at least 90 days notice including documentation on what your coin does that makes it worthwhile - no premine, no instamine.

Quark almost got it right but then I found out they had huge rewards at the beginning which gave extra rewards to the very earliest adopters, that wasn't a premine but same concept, and so I bailed on it. Now I realize there were other issues with it as well.

But anyway - yes, I want a fair launch which means time to look at what the coin does before the launch.

Sounds good these admins are on a hurry to make money they offer ICO right away even if they do not have a site of their or any feature or road map just a plain algorithm of their clone coin..

[K210]

If a coin truly has potential it will grow on its own. Look at bitcoin no icos/ipos yet people were still drawn to work on it because it had potential. The reality is that if a coin has potential it will grow on its own without the need for icos/ipos or some other shady shit. These days i outright refuse to touch coins launched via IPO/ICO as there have been far too many of these scam coins in the past and i am tired of greedy devs not doing what they preach.

[StinkyLover]

My favourites are the ones with flashy graphics and swish roadmaps. Roadmaps that lead nowhere. Fodder for goats.

[americanpegasus]

The worst is that the legitimate and honest crypto projects get lumped in with the other garbage.  Only by the community taking a stand and refusing to acknowledge IPO/ICO crypto can this trend be reversed.

[TPTB_need_war]

Only by the community taking a stand and refusing to acknowledge IPO/ICO crypto can this trend be reversed.

The greater community already has. The masses don't adopt nor buy any of the altcoins.

There isn't a problem. It is just a few fools here who like to give their money away. Including yourself.

Nice how your closed the Sia thread so I couldn't rebut you.

[americanpegasus]

Does SIA have a significant premine/ICO/IPO?  I wasn't aware of one. 
 
Also how does it feel to return to Bitcointalk as a full developer?  I knew you had it in you.  What's your coin's ticker so I can own some for the lulz?

[TPTB_need_war]

I am trying to be a developer of a social network, not of a ticker symbol.

You know something the masses are interested in, not a circle jerk of fools playing greater fool fistfucking with each other while violating SEC regulations and setting themselves up for future jail time.

[americanpegasus]

I am trying to be a developer of a social network, not of a ticker symbol.

You know something the masses are interested in, not a circle jerk of fools playing greater fool fistfucking with each other while violating SEC regulations and setting themselves up for future jail time.

So you were about to tell me about the Sia premine/devmine/ICO/IPO? 
 
Also, my apologies.  I just heard you say the other day that you were leaving Bitcointalk until your project was launched, so I naturally assumed that since you have returned the project also must have gone live. 
 
Also, since you seem to be so knowledgeable about these things, when FinCEN and SEC guidance conflict - which takes precedence?   What if SEC guidance doesn't apply, or they haven't released any?
 

[ArticMine]

...
 
Also, since you seem to be so knowledgeable about these things, when FinCEN and SEC guidance conflict - which takes precedence?   What if SEC guidance doesn't apply, or they haven't released any?
 

Where is the conflict between FinCEN and SEC guidance?