New Drama from BitcoinASIC

[Inaba]

I am really hoping this is real.  Grammar and spelling aside the jist of the post rings true for me.  The way all ASIC vendors so far have forced the community to shoulder ALL the risk basically is unbelievable for a newb like me!  Add to that the absolute trainwrek PR and customer service shown by the current players and I feel like this isn't the real world anymore but some wild west cowboy shoot out!
 

Hey man, I think you might have a viable lawsuit on your hands if you were forced to purchase something.  Did they use a gun or a knife or something?  Was your family being held hostage until you ordered?  If you were forced into ordering something, it's under duress and you aren't liable for any contract you signed.  You should definitely consult a lawyer, I think you have a case!

BTW - just out of curiosity, which vendor(s) forced you to order?

[1714930725]

1714930725

[1714930725]

1714930725

[repentance]

Sure their first post is "unprofessional", but they're not asking you to send millions of dollars before there's any proof the hardware exists...

They're also not naming which "huge corporation" they're a division of - despite saying that they want people to "get to know them".  No huge corporation would have let that verbal vomit be posted.  The announcement that they had bought bASIC would have been carefully crafted by someone who can write English.  Comments about Tom, Dave and BFL wouldn't have been approved for posting on the website.  References to bASIC would have been removed if they're re-branding.  A "huge corporation" would have made sure that the announcement included the names and contact numbers of the division staff.

[Flying Hellfish]

I think you're knit picking nitpicking.

Oh most definitely  

If they had profits and outside investments, why exactly did they need to take full payment pre-orders?  if they didnt need customer money why not take a small deposit to hold the clients place, this is what normal real world companies do?

Meh, why not? As a small company, it's vastly easier to have everyone pay in full right from the start and have them shoulder all the risk. When the time comes to build, package, and ship, it's nice to know that you have X amount of customers that have already paid, compared to X [fully paid], Y [partially paid], and/or even Z [not paid]. It negates the "Oh wait, did this person pay the rest of their bill before I ship?" type of mentality.

Why not is definitely not a valid reason IMO...  I believe my correction to you statement is more accurate and would agree completely with it .

Hell if they had the money to float the project but still took full payment pre-orders than what did they use client money for, speculation, paying salaries, R&D, hookers and blow.  Really it doesn't matter what they did with it IMO the community gave them an interest free loan for an "open" amount of time, if shit hit the fan they could have lost money and what would the manufactures have lost?  If they took it and needed it shame on them, if they took it and didn't need it shame on them.

I mean just look at Avalon, pre pay in full with no refund... that's on batch #2  Avalon is losing absolutely nothing no matter what happens, anyone ordering is taking all the risk (big or small its still risk).  When purchasing goods it is not normal for the consumer to take ALL the risk while the retailer and manufacture take none.  God I wish I could get away with this type of business model at my job!

And to your last point (sorry not familiar with the multi quoting from a single post yet... yup Im a newb!).  You can gauge the demand for a product based on pre-sales with a small deposit vs full pre paid orders.  Wouldn't it be sweet if there was a machine and some type of program that could have all of the client information on various stages of orders, payments, shipments etc    Come on dude handling (in Avalons case 300 orders for batch #1) is not that difficult in 2013 (unless you believe their current PR campaign).  They can design and manufacture ASICS but cant run a tiny little Etail operation because clients haven't pre paid in full.

[repentance]

I mean just look at Avalon, pre pay in full with no refund... that's on batch #2  Avalon is losing absolutely nothing no matter what happens, anyone ordering is taking all the risk (big or small its still risk).  When purchasing goods it is not normal for the consumer to take ALL the risk while the retailer and manufacture take none.  God I wish I could get away with this type of business model at my job!

Do you build to order in your job?  It's actually pretty common to pay upfront and not be able to get a refund on built to order goods.  Bitcoins ASICs have had a long timeline from order to delivery on their first batches and you're right that customers were bearing a large risk.  I don't think you can say that they were bearing all the risk, though, because it's highly likely that first batch sales didn't cover development costs.

No-one's forcing anyone to pre-order.  Plenty of people have decided to wait until BFL is shipping on a normal retail basis rather than pre-order from anyone.

You're apparently also overlooking the fact that Avalon didn't intend to ship rigs initially so they weren't set up for that.  They've been open about the fact that pre-order funds for Batch 2 will be used to build the units.

[Flying Hellfish]

I am really hoping this is real.  Grammar and spelling aside the jist of the post rings true for me.  The way all ASIC vendors so far have forced the community to shoulder ALL the risk basically is unbelievable for a newb like me!  Add to that the absolute trainwrek PR and customer service shown by the current players and I feel like this isn't the real world anymore but some wild west cowboy shoot out!
 

Hey man, I think you might have a viable lawsuit on your hands if you were forced to purchase something.  Did they use a gun or a knife or something?  Was your family being held hostage until you ordered?  If you were forced into ordering something, it's under duress and you aren't liable for any contract you signed.  You should definitely consult a lawyer, I think you have a case!

BTW - just out of curiosity, which vendor(s) forced you to order?

You sir are a real gem, one of a kind (I can only hope).

Are you often ignorant simply for the sake of being ignorant (I think yes!)

First of all LOL at lawsuits I am not even sure how you managed to get there from my post but ah OK cool!

Perhaps in its literal definition forced was not the perfect word.  I guess me assuming that someone reading the post could get the "jist" of it without translating every word literally we're just slightly optimistic?

Would you prefer if I said something like The current ASIC vendors have decided to only accept full payment pre-orders thus shifting the burden of risk from themselves to the customer?

[Flying Hellfish]

I mean just look at Avalon, pre pay in full with no refund... that's on batch #2  Avalon is losing absolutely nothing no matter what happens, anyone ordering is taking all the risk (big or small its still risk).  When purchasing goods it is not normal for the consumer to take ALL the risk while the retailer and manufacture take none.  God I wish I could get away with this type of business model at my job!

Do you build to order in your job?  It's actually pretty common to pay upfront and not be able to get a refund on built to order goods.  Bitcoins ASICs have had a long timeline from order to delivery on their first batches and you're right that customers were bearing a large risk.  I don't think you can say that they were bearing all the risk, though, because it's highly likely that first batch sales didn't cover development costs.

No-one's forcing anyone to pre-order.  Plenty of people have decided to wait until BFL is shipping on a normal retail basis rather than pre-order from anyone.

You're apparently also overlooking the fact that Avalon didn't intend to ship rigs initially so they weren't set up for that.  They've been open about the fact that pre-order funds for Batch 2 will be used to build the units.

Actually I do BTO work at my job.  I work for a rack and cabinet manufacture as an account manager and about 20% of my business is custom sheet metal fab.  Any custom or BTO job we take our quotes are very clear that they are non-cancellable and non-returnable once material has arrived and fab has started.  We also provide the client with a production drawing for sign off approval.  I know its just metal and not electronics IP etc and we are not selling retail (we are distribution centric).  We never take money up front, in fact we get a PO and the client is billed and is required to pay net 30 after delivery.  I certainly would never suggest ASIC manufacture is anything like what we do and certainly what we do is not realistic for this situation I get that.  My point is all about only taking full payment pre-orders to transfer much of the risk to the consumer/end user.

Forced wasn't the best word, I didn't intend for it to be translated literally.  What I should have said was if you want to get into ASICS you will only be able to do by full payment pre-orders thus transferring a debateable amount of risk from the manufacture to the consumer.

As for "All" the risk OK maybe that was to unilateral but they shed some risk from themselves to the consumer by only accepting orders the way they do.

[repentance]

What I should have said was if you want to get into ASICS you will only be able to do by full payment pre-orders thus transferring a debateable amount of risk from the manufacture to the consumer.

That won't be the case once BFL catches up on their pre-orders.  They'll be looking at a turnaround time of a couple of days from order to shipping then - faster than Dell can build me and ship me a computer and certainly faster than the two months or so I have to wait for built to order furniture that I've paid for.

ASIC pre-order customers have taken substantial risks - there's no doubt about that - but the option of waiting until BFL pre-orders were cleared has always been there.  Those who pre-ordered wanted to be the first to get ASICs because they realise that every ASIC which hits the market diminishes the profitability of all other ASICs.  Most were hoping to have their ASICs in hand before the block reward halved and thought that they'd have a significant head start on ASIC mining before a large number of ASICs were delivered by different vendors.  They viewed the potential reward as being worth the risk.  

The big thing to remember is that this product has one purpose - to generate income in the form of Bitcoins.  That people will take huge risks in pursuit of Bitcoins has been demonstrated time and time again.

[Flying Hellfish]

Flying Hellfish - STFU

FTFY,

Feel free to ignore me.  

Lol, I actually don't know what to say to this.

[Flying Hellfish]

What I should have said was if you want to get into ASICS you will only be able to do by full payment pre-orders thus transferring a debateable amount of risk from the manufacture to the consumer.

That won't be the case once BFL catches up on their pre-orders.  They'll be looking at a turnaround time of a couple of days from order to shipping then - faster than Dell can build me and ship me a computer and certainly faster than the two months or so I have to wait for built to order furniture that I've paid for.

ASIC pre-order customers have taken substantial risks - there's no doubt about that - but the option of waiting until BFL pre-orders were cleared has always been there.  Those who pre-ordered wanted to be the first to get ASICs because they realise that every ASIC which hits the market diminishes the profitability of all other ASICs.  Most were hoping to have their ASICs in hand before the block reward halved and thought that they'd have a significant head start on ASIC mining before a large number of ASICs were delivered by different vendors.  They viewed the potential reward as being worth the risk.  

The big thing to remember is that this product has one purpose - to generate income in the form of Bitcoins.  That people will take huge risks in pursuit of Bitcoins has been demonstrated time and time again.

I agree for the most part.

Vendors catching up still IMO doesn't justify the risk shedding that is involved initially.
I understand the early adopters likely (or at least should have) done a risk reward analysis and decided for themselves, again I still don't agree with how the manufactures transfer risk from themselves to the consumer when I believe any risk they shed should have been shoulder by them.   I think those that took a risk had enough already without taking on additional risk that I think the manufacture should have shouldered.

BTW thank you for not attacking me (like someone who works for an ASIC vendor and some other random troll did) and trying to discuss this with me.  As a forum and BTC newb this stuff fascinates me and appreciate being corrected politely.

[Inaba]

I am really hoping this is real.  Grammar and spelling aside the jist of the post rings true for me.  The way all ASIC vendors so far have forced the community to shoulder ALL the risk basically is unbelievable for a newb like me!  Add to that the absolute trainwrek PR and customer service shown by the current players and I feel like this isn't the real world anymore but some wild west cowboy shoot out!
 

Hey man, I think you might have a viable lawsuit on your hands if you were forced to purchase something.  Did they use a gun or a knife or something?  Was your family being held hostage until you ordered?  If you were forced into ordering something, it's under duress and you aren't liable for any contract you signed.  You should definitely consult a lawyer, I think you have a case!

BTW - just out of curiosity, which vendor(s) forced you to order?

You sir are a real gem, one of a kind (I can only hope).

Are you often ignorant simply for the sake of being ignorant (I think yes!)

First of all LOL at lawsuits I am not even sure how you managed to get there from my post but ah OK cool!

Perhaps in its literal definition forced was not the perfect word.  I guess me assuming that someone reading the post could get the "jist" of it without translating every word literally we're just slightly optimistic?

Would you prefer if I said something like The current ASIC vendors have decided to only accept full payment pre-orders thus shifting the burden of risk from themselves to the customer?

If you don't want people to take your inflammatory, false/misleading statements at face value, then say what you mean.  You have never been forced to order from any ASIC vendor.  You have always had the option to wait until the products were available for purchase and shipped to you.  Your entire premise is flawed, in so far as the fact that if you pre-ordered, you chose to do so of your own free will.  If the risk that you would be bearing is too much, then do not pre-order. There is absolutely zero requirement for you to do so, thus your statements are false.  You may not like it, true, but you are free not to participate.  Those that are willing to shoulder the risk and those that don't mind the situation will take your place... but there is nothing forcing you to participate at any level.

Yes, of course, attacking you... pointing out that your entire statement is false in a semi-humorous way is attacking you.  You're the only troll here, sir.

[Flying Hellfish]

I am really hoping this is real.  Grammar and spelling aside the jist of the post rings true for me.  The way all ASIC vendors so far have forced the community to shoulder ALL the risk basically is unbelievable for a newb like me!  Add to that the absolute trainwrek PR and customer service shown by the current players and I feel like this isn't the real world anymore but some wild west cowboy shoot out!
 

Hey man, I think you might have a viable lawsuit on your hands if you were forced to purchase something.  Did they use a gun or a knife or something?  Was your family being held hostage until you ordered?  If you were forced into ordering something, it's under duress and you aren't liable for any contract you signed.  You should definitely consult a lawyer, I think you have a case!

BTW - just out of curiosity, which vendor(s) forced you to order?

You sir are a real gem, one of a kind (I can only hope).

Are you often ignorant simply for the sake of being ignorant (I think yes!)

First of all LOL at lawsuits I am not even sure how you managed to get there from my post but ah OK cool!

Perhaps in its literal definition forced was not the perfect word.  I guess me assuming that someone reading the post could get the "jist" of it without translating every word literally we're just slightly optimistic?

Would you prefer if I said something like The current ASIC vendors have decided to only accept full payment pre-orders thus shifting the burden of risk from themselves to the customer?

If you don't want people to take your inflammatory, false/misleading statements at face value, then say what you mean.  You have never been forced to order from any ASIC vendor.  You have always had the option to wait until the products were available for purchase and shipped to you.  Your entire premise is flawed, in so far as the fact that if you pre-ordered, you chose to do so of your own free will.  If the risk that you would be bearing is too much, then do not pre-order. There is absolutely zero requirement for you to do so, thus your statements are false.  You may not like it, true, but you are free not to participate.  Those that are willing to shoulder the risk and those that don't mind the situation will take your place... but there is nothing forcing you to participate at any level.

Yes, of course, attacking you... pointing out that your entire statement is false in a semi-humorous way is attacking you.  You're the only troll here, sir.

Really, if you honestly believed from my post that I was implying that any vendor forcefully made anyone order or that anyone ordered not of their own free will you are more ignorant than I thought.  I actually said "the community" that implies a group not an individual. All vendors decided to use full payment pre orders as the only method.  You all knew the market was big enough that enough people would be willing to take any option given them, greed blinds after all.  That's why you chose full payment pre-orders only, so don't come off with some high and mighty free will bull shit.

You seem to be good at diversion and sugar coating, to bad your comedy skills are so bad.

[maqifrnswa]

You sir are a real gem, one of a kind (I can only hope).

Are you often ignorant simply for the sake of being ignorant (I think yes!)

First of all LOL at lawsuits I am not even sure how you managed to get there from my post but ah OK cool!

Perhaps in its literal definition forced was not the perfect word.  I guess me assuming that someone reading the post could get the "jist" of it without translating every word literally we're just slightly optimistic?

Would you prefer if I said something like The current ASIC vendors have decided to only accept full payment pre-orders thus shifting the burden of risk from themselves to the customer?

I feel weird saying this, but I agree with Jeff. Customers chose to bear risk, and they may be rewarded (or burnt) by that choice. However, you should make the argument that ASIC vendors misrepresented the risk by over-promising. The counter to that is that all vendors, accept BitcoinASIC, have either delivered products or are offering refunds to anyone at any time.

So in the end, the only argument you have is that ASIC vendors made things inconvenient for you (if you were someone that priced risk somewhere between the initial offering and the current state) or that BitcoinASIC took your money and ran.

"You all knew the market was big enough that enough people would be willing to take any option given them, greed blinds after all." - Something is in such demand people are willing to buy it at all costs, isn't that economics 101? Put it differently, given the choice of no pre-sale or pre-sale, the market overwhelming is calling for a presale (this is demonstrated by the fact that they still have orders even after the delay and the risk became evident).

[Flying Hellfish]

Flying Hellfish - STFU

FTFY,

Feel free to ignore me.  

Lol, I actually don't know what to say to this.

Created account about the same time website content is changed - true.
Knows much about gambling and similar websites - true.
Focused on ASIC and especially this thread - true.

STFU, will ya?

Keep trying? Try harder? I don't know but you are pretty far off base my friend.

BTW why would you even think I am this Tom guy?  I haven't defend the old or new bASIC all I said was I hope this was real and that I would watch and wait.  If that makes me Tom then wow wow wow!  FWIW I think bASIC is worse than the other two BUT IF and that's a big if they are new players AND they can prove their claims then I will consider becoming a customer.  Don't mistake that for being a bASIC fan boy.  Hell if the other vendors changed to my personal satisfaction I would consider purchasing their product as well (although I'm sure BFL doesn't want me LOL).

[Flying Hellfish]

You sir are a real gem, one of a kind (I can only hope).

Are you often ignorant simply for the sake of being ignorant (I think yes!)

First of all LOL at lawsuits I am not even sure how you managed to get there from my post but ah OK cool!

Perhaps in its literal definition forced was not the perfect word.  I guess me assuming that someone reading the post could get the "jist" of it without translating every word literally we're just slightly optimistic?

Would you prefer if I said something like The current ASIC vendors have decided to only accept full payment pre-orders thus shifting the burden of risk from themselves to the customer?

I feel weird saying this, but I agree with Jeff. Customers chose to bear risk, and they may be rewarded (or burnt) by that choice. However, you should make the argument that ASIC vendors misrepresented the risk by over-promising. The counter to that is that all vendors, accept BitcoinASIC, have either delivered products or are offering refunds to anyone at any time.

So in the end, the only argument you have is that ASIC vendors made things inconvenient for you (if you were someone that priced risk somewhere between the initial offering and the current state) or that BitcoinASIC took your money and ran.

"You all knew the market was big enough that enough people would be willing to take any option given them, greed blinds after all." - Something is in such demand people are willing to buy it at all costs, isn't that economics 101? Put it differently, given the choice of no pre-sale or pre-sale, the market overwhelming is calling for a presale (this is demonstrated by the fact that they still have orders even after the delay and the risk became evident).

Economics 101 teaches us that if we have a product that is such demand we can do what ever we like as the seller?  I know of one business model that uses this very very effectively, the drug trade.  Money is a lot like a drug man!

Given the choice of pre-order or no pre-order sure the market demands pre-orders.  Given the choice between full payment pre order and no pre order the market still demands full payment pre order but what if they were given the choice of deposit pre order and full payment pre order, I think the market would choose the deposit method.  Why again did they have to have full payment pre-orders even before a single solitary device was shown to exist working (that's a question for all 3 retail vendors...)?  I know we're past that stage now as Avalon has delivered but the question remains?

[Phinnaeus Gage]

My bad!

Want to get rid of these I don't drink liquor, bought them with a lot I purchased from an Auction

Each bottle sells for 5 BTC w/ $20 Shipping USA Only (sorry its just too expensive overseas)

These are all quart Bottles and considered high quality liquor

1 x Seagrams Blended Canadian Whiskey
1 x Southern Comfort 100 Proof
1 x Gordons Vodka

PM if interested - Ship the same day

thank you

And, as somebody duly noted in that same thread (still relevant today)...

Congratulations!
bitcoinbooze.com
is available. Snap it up before someone else does. Just $12.99*

[oceans]

IF anyone thinks that FRAUD is a right for any company with a Pre-Order option, then you're either a plain stupid person or have other intentions. Customers take only the risks of product miss-representation and/or delaying the release date indefinitely(until the customer asks for a refund). Otherwise the company that falsely advertise a product which they don't have any intent to finalize or for unknown reasons decides to run off, then its called FRAUD.

This ain't gambling for us to throw up the money and have little expectation, so please stop spreading this stupid idea. Like I said the only risk we had taken was for getting a very different product from which we initially signed on, and/or to have the release date delayed. Sure, there was also the risk to get into some sort of FRAUD scheme but that doesn't make it right and any court from around the world has this kind of precedent in their penal laws. Of course if we'll loose our money remains to be seen, but don't spread stupidity around here saying we can't do anything about it, I mean legally.

[repentance]

You all knew the market was big enough that enough people would be willing to take any option given them, greed blinds after all.

Avalon made clear at the outset that they needed pre-orders for 300 units in order for the project to go ahead.  People were begging them to increase the amount of units available in Batch 1 and they refused, which is hardly the hallmark of a greedy company.  Batch 2 orders are only being opened now and those units will be available at $1499 rather than the $1999 which was originally planned for Batch 2.  They've openly stated that pre-order money will be used to build the units.

Tom was obviously dependent on pre-order money for the bASIC project, too - we know that he needed additional funds to complete it when things went wrong even though the project had some investors from the community.

BFL is the only company which has said it had sufficient funds to develop its ASICs without pre-order money.

I seriously doubt that any of the Bitcoin vendors are going to show any meaningful profit from their first runs.

[ProfMac]

Sorry.

As a Canadian, I would like to formally apologize for the unprofessionalism displayed by my apparent neighbours.

I assure you that there are many Canadians who know how to use features like spellcheck and understand the purpose of paragraphs.
One can never underestimate the power of proofreading a post before clicking POST.

In short, sorry.
eh.

Even in Texas, many of us can spell when we really try & make use of hired help and spell checkers.

[hardcore-fs]

You all knew the market was big enough that enough people would be willing to take any option given them, greed blinds after all.

Avalon made clear at the outset that they needed pre-orders for 300 units in order for the project to go ahead.  People were begging them to increase the amount of units available in Batch 1 and they refused, which is hardly the hallmark of a greedy company.  Batch 2 orders are only being opened now and those units will be available at $1499 rather than the $1999 which was originally planned for Batch 2.  They've openly stated that pre-order money will be used to build the units.

Tom was obviously dependent on pre-order money for the bASIC project, too - we know that he needed additional funds to complete it when things went wrong even though the project had some investors from the community.

BFL is the only company which has said it had sufficient funds to develop its ASICs without pre-order money.

I seriously doubt that any of the Bitcoin vendors are going to show any meaningful profit from their first runs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-PVf0FqCx4
Maybe you should consider a career in politics....

[repentance]

Well that certainly got tidied up.

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