New Drama from BitcoinASIC

[SgtSpike]

Anyone have any ideas (estimates) on how much Tom might still owe out to people in dollars? or bitcoins?

||bit

I heard it was around 10,000 BTC.  Don't quote me on that.

[repentance]

Anyone have any ideas (estimates) on how much Tom might still owe out to people in dollars? or bitcoins?

||bit

I heard it was around 10,000 BTC.  Don't quote me on that.

This is from one of Dave's last posts on refunds.

Remaining:
136 BTC order refunds
106 BTC order refunds (already sent to Tom for payment)

https://www.btcfpga.com/forum/index.php?topic=1052.0

It's unlikely that every order was only for a single unit, but even if that was the case you'd still be looking at at least a couple of hundred thousand dollars worth of BTC refunds.

[||bit]

Anyone have any ideas (estimates) on how much Tom might still owe out to people in dollars? or bitcoins?

||bit

I heard it was around 10,000 BTC.  Don't quote me on that.

I doubt he wouldn't have to pay people back in bitcoins, since the product being bought was priced in dollars.

So, let's say 10,000 bitcoins were spent with $12 average/bitcoin. That would be $120,000 owed out. If I recall,  he said he had over a thousand refunds to work through in that last posting that I recall. So assume about 500, i.e. something less than half, of those are paid with bitcoins. And a minimum purchase of about ~$600.  That is ~$300,000 owed  - less any he might have refunded already.

I've perused some lawyers online that are in his area, and found a firm that handles cases of fraud etc... But I'm not committed to this route, yet.

||bit

[repentance]

I've perused some lawyers online that are in his area, and found a firm that handles cases of fraud etc... But I'm not committed to this route, yet.

||bit

I don't think a consultation with a lawyer to find out the options available is a bad idea.  Getting that information doesn't commit anyone to a course of action and people probably need to keep their expectations about what can realistically be done grounded in reality. 

[||bit]

I've perused some lawyers online that are in his area, and found a firm that handles cases of fraud etc... But I'm not committed to this route, yet.

||bit

I don't think a consultation with a lawyer to find out the options available is a bad idea.  Getting that information doesn't commit anyone to a course of action and people probably need to keep their expectations about what can realistically be done grounded in reality. 

Yeah. I think there is plenty of evidence to show Tom took other's money/property. What shocks me is how silent Tom is about the refunds now. Does he think this will just "go away"? In the end, I won't be surprised if he ends up owing more than he took.

Not that it matters, but are there any photos or videos of Tom with his business name/product both visible?

||bit

[polrpaul]

I've perused some lawyers online that are in his area, and found a firm that handles cases of fraud etc... But I'm not committed to this route, yet.

||bit

I don't think a consultation with a lawyer to find out the options available is a bad idea.  Getting that information doesn't commit anyone to a course of action and people probably need to keep their expectations about what can realistically be done grounded in reality. 

Yeah. I think there is plenty of evidence to show Tom took other's money/property. What shocks me is how silent Tom is about the refunds now. Does he think this will just "go away"? In the end, I won't be surprised if he ends up owing more than he took.

Not that it matters, but are there any photos or videos of Tom with his business name/product both visible?

||bit

This?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3EoDeOCgJKs

And this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xlAhR8Ry8VU

[kwoody]

Tom owes me $5,000 worth of BTC. In certain parts of the world, even in the USA, people get killed over less. Just saying. Tom, choose your next course of action wisely.

[Nemesis]

JontheDong,

Is Tom's account still hacked?


lol

[Inaba]

JontheDong,

Is Tom's account still hacked?


lol

Ha... you said Dong.

[MichaelBliss]

Maybe Tom is just riding this rally out, knowing everyone's pretty much cool with pricing his "product" in terms of USD,(i.e giving Tom free btc in the name of conversion, though no conversion actually happened with the btc) that way he can pay everyone back and still make a couple hundred thousand (if that's indeed what he's still owed).  Why would he pay you while the price is still sky rocketing under those circumstances?

[crazyates]

Maybe Tom is just riding this rally out, knowing everyone's pretty much cool with pricing his "product" in terms of USD,(i.e giving Tom free btc in the name of conversion, though no conversion actually happened with the btc) that way he can pay everyone back and still make a couple hundred thousand (if that's indeed what he's still owed).  Why would he pay you while the price is still sky rocketing under those circumstances?

When Dave sent the refund list to Tom, all BTC amounts were assuming a $15/BTC value, even tho the price at the time was closer to $18, and has since gone up.

[mezzomix]

A business venture gone bad is not necessarily a fraud.

If your business is going bad, you communicate this to your business partners and customers. You keep them updated about what's going on and maybe you declare chapter 11 or whatever you do in this case.

But if you hide and run, I would consider it to be fraud.

[Phinnaeus Gage]

Two more thoughts.

What are the chances that Tom's still mining, and if he is, is he doing such via a pool. And if that's the case, can his IP be traced?

Also, and somebody else would have to look into this aspect, Tom Van Riper not only collect money for mining units, but also extra to handle S/H. Is there anyway to get the Postal General involve?

I can't phantom a hungry family of six on the lamb with a Bitcoin mining rig in tow.

[polrpaul]

Also, and somebody else would have to look into this aspect, Tom Van Riper not only collect money for mining units, but also extra to handle S/H. Is there anyway to get the Postal General involve?

Oh absolutely! If his customers pursue to the fullest extent, it's definitely going to land in mail fraud territory too.

[repentance]

A business venture gone bad is not necessarily a fraud.

If your business is going bad, you communicate this to your business partners and customers. You keep them updated about what's going on and maybe you declare chapter 11 or whatever you do in this case.

But if you hide and run, I would consider it to be fraud.

In my experience, small businesses and individuals are often curiously reluctant to seek insolvency protection until judgements against them are piling up and ignoring financial disaster in the hope it will either go away or "something will come up" is pretty common.

We have no idea what Tom actually owes.  If there are "investors" they may even be secured creditors depending on how their financial contribution was structured.  Also, deeds of arrangement with creditors tend not to work so well when there are a large amount of creditors or when there would be difficulty in treating a class of creditors equally.

Phin, if this is a criminal matter then investigators have access to DMV and other asset records.  Plenty of people manage to avoid creditors without living as vagrant lifestyle as though they're trying to stay one step ahead of law enforcement.  It's certainly possible that Tom and his family are moving around from one cheap hotel to another and town to town, but there's no reason to believe that it's likely.  NY's a bigger city than Sydney and it would still be relatively easy to "disappear" here even if you'd committed the kind of crime which made accessing your bank accounts or using your ID dangerous.

Law enforcement can obviously seek the disgorgement of all sorts of information which isn't going to be available to creditors.

[Nemesis]

A business venture gone bad is not necessarily a fraud.

If your business is going bad, you communicate this to your business partners and customers. You keep them updated about what's going on and maybe you declare chapter 11 or whatever you do in this case.

But if you hide and run, I would consider it to be fraud.

In my experience, small businesses and individuals are often curiously reluctant to seek insolvency protection until judgements against them are piling up and ignoring financial disaster in the hope it will either go away or "something will come up" is pretty common.

We have no idea what Tom actually owes.  If there are "investors" they may even be secured creditors depending on how their financial contribution was structured.  Also, deeds of arrangement with creditors tend not to work so well when there are a large amount of creditors or when there would be difficulty in treating a class of creditors equally.

Phin, if this is a criminal matter then investigators have access to DMV and other asset records.  Plenty of people manage to avoid creditors without living as vagrant lifestyle as though they're trying to stay one step ahead of law enforcement.  It's certainly possible that Tom and his family are moving around from one cheap hotel to another and town to town, but there's no reason to believe that it's likely.  NY's a bigger city than Sydney and it would still be relatively easy to "disappear" here even if you'd committed the kind of crime which made accessing your bank accounts or using your ID dangerous.

Law enforcement can obviously seek the disgorgement of all sorts of information which isn't going to be available to creditors.

Please stop your rambling.... blah blah... The poster you quoted made a good point and you didnt counter any of that. He clearly explained to you between fraud and business going bad. You're one of those who still thinks that Tom has no intention to scam (and you kept going on and on)

We all know your family member is a lawyer/paralegal. You're in AU, and this is US. Just stop all these "smart-ass" comment about your experiences with business and laws.... blah blah.

[MrTeal]

Two more thoughts.

What are the chances that Tom's still mining, and if he is, is he doing such via a pool. And if that's the case, can his IP be traced?

Also, and somebody else would have to look into this aspect, Tom Van Riper not only collect money for mining units, but also extra to handle S/H. Is there anyway to get the Postal General involve?

I can't phantom a hungry family of six on the lamb with a Bitcoin mining rig in tow.

From what's been posted, he's user 111 on BTCGuild. He's mining there at 60GH/s right now.
https://www.btcguild.com/halloffame.php

[greyhawk]

Please stop your rambling.... blah blah... The poster you quoted made a good point and you didnt counter any of that. He clearly explained to you between fraud and business going bad. You're one of those who still thinks that Tom has no intention to scam (and you kept going on and on)

We all know your family member is a lawyer/paralegal. You're in AU, and this is US. Just stop all these "smart-ass" comment about your experiences with business and laws.... blah blah.

Why are you always so angry?   Relax a little, drink some nice tea, light some candles, have a hot bath, get a slow sensual massage.

[SolarSilver]

From what's been posted, he's user 111 on BTCGuild. He's mining there at 60GH/s right now.
https://www.btcguild.com/halloffame.php

So he's trying to earn those BTC to repay by mining day by day?

Maybe he should have paid down for an Avalon or 10 to speed up the process

[polrpaul]

Please stop your rambling.... blah blah... The poster you quoted made a good point and you didnt counter any of that. He clearly explained to you between fraud and business going bad. You're one of those who still thinks that Tom has no intention to scam (and you kept going on and on)

We all know your family member is a lawyer/paralegal. You're in AU, and this is US. Just stop all these "smart-ass" comment about your experiences with business and laws.... blah blah.

Why are you always so angry?   Relax a little, drink some nice tea, light some candles, have a hot bath, get a slow sensual massage.

... with a happy ending?