When are you going to cash out?

[DoomDumas]

Bitcoin is not working the way that it needs to in my opinion, I am hopeful that ltc will bring the bitcoin community in line. What I see is a bunch of banker wannabees
a bunch of speculators and greedy people. I love the idea, but I think the community that bitcoin has built is based on greed bitcoin is already a manipulated market people are just holding coins off the market, just like gold and silver manipulation. I hope ltc coin takes off fast and makes it more accessible and brings the btc price down.

Greed is part of human nature.  Little old ladies stash cash under their mattresses, people hoard precious metals in safety deposit boxes, doomsday preppers hoard food & guns....

LTC will be no different if it gains popularity.

May I disagree with the bold part.. IMHO greed is a distortioned value, before the years 1900, most poeples where not greedy at all.  Gives everyone what they need to survive and be happy, (nice food, quality shelter, toys, leisure), greedy suddently become useless and more a burden than anything else.
Greed is a by-product of a capitalist oriented society !

Sorry for this "may seems" excessive tought

[1714182372]

1714182372

[1714182372]

1714182372

[wachtwoord]

May I disagree with the bold part.. IMHO greed is a distortioned value, before the years 1900, most poeples where not greedy at all.  Gives everyone what they need to survive and be happy, (nice food, quality shelter, toys, leisure), greedy suddently become useless and more a burden than anything else.
Greed is a by-product of a capitalist oriented society !

Sorry for this "may seems" excessive tought

Greed is doing things in your own interest. In humans the only way to keep your genetic markup in the gene pool is by surviving an procreating therefore humans are inclined to do things which:

1) Increases their chance to survive
2) Increases their chance to procreate
3) Increases the chance of their descendants (the closer the better, so preferably children)  to survive
4) Increases the chance of their descendants (the closer the better, so preferably children)  to procreate
5) Same thing for other non-descendant family

This is what I define as greed. Gordon Gecko agrees

[gweedo]

May I disagree with the bold part.. IMHO greed is a distortioned value, before the years 1900, most poeples where not greedy at all.  Gives everyone what they need to survive and be happy, (nice food, quality shelter, toys, leisure), greedy suddently become useless and more a burden than anything else.
Greed is a by-product of a capitalist oriented society !

Sorry for this "may seems" excessive tought

Greed is doing things in your own interest. In humans the only way to keep your genetic markup in the gene pool is by surviving an procreating therefore humans are inclined to do things which:

1) Increases their chance to survive
2) Increases their chance to procreate
3) Increases the chance of their descendants (the closer the better, so preferably children)  to survive
4) Increases the chance of their descendants (the closer the better, so preferably children)  to procreate
5) Same thing for other non-descendant family

This is what I define as greed. Gordon Gecko agrees

Greed is good...

I had to slip that line in


But on a serious note, ever since human existence there was greed. It is competition of who is the best. Look at human history how many times a person screwed over another person just to be the best. A lot of that times is in monetary value so you can see greed is what drives us most the time.

[FreeMoney]

I already cashed out. I got out of USD and now have real money.

you must be crazy

I'd imagine having 20,000BTC/month in profits from SatoshiDICE probably helps him live without USD.  

Is that an official number, or an estimate from the blockchain?

So its an estimate from the blockchain. At this point, those profits are as real as pirateat40 profits. Notice how SDICE is not confirming or reporting official numbers. They are just letting people run wild with their own imaginations so they can sell more "shares"...

Makes more than mtgox with almost no overhead.

Doesn't sound very realistic does it? More revenues from people willing to risk all-or-nothing dice, or from people trading day after day on mtgox? I don't think so

Your theory is that SatoshiDICE is playing itself in order to generate fake profits and sell more shares?

I can't really see any way to discount said theory.... anyone else?

They would need to actually send the 'fake' profits to the real owners of the shares so it seems like a terrible plan. Now if they didn't have other investors then making 'fake' wagers for publicity would be possible.

[bitcoinBull]

May I disagree with the bold part.. IMHO greed is a distortioned value, before the years 1900, most poeples where not greedy at all.  Gives everyone what they need to survive and be happy, (nice food, quality shelter, toys, leisure), greedy suddently become useless and more a burden than anything else.
Greed is a by-product of a capitalist oriented society !

Sorry for this "may seems" excessive tought

Greed is doing things in your own interest. In humans the only way to keep your genetic markup in the gene pool is by surviving an procreating therefore humans are inclined to do things which:

1) Increases their chance to survive
2) Increases their chance to procreate
3) Increases the chance of their descendants (the closer the better, so preferably children)  to survive
4) Increases the chance of their descendants (the closer the better, so preferably children)  to procreate
5) Same thing for other non-descendant family

This is what I define as greed. Gordon Gecko agrees

Procreation of the most greedy, or "survival of the fittest", is a myth perpetuated by sociopaths who don't understand evolution. On both a biological level and a societal level, the rule of thumb is "survival of the most cooperative." Mutual aid and benefit is the only way organisms thrive in an environment. It starves and goes extinct if it eats the last bit of its food source, so for long-term success it must act in a way that is mutually beneficial to its food source.

Same with humans; acting greedy might be advantageous in the very short-term, but to thrive long-term requires acting in cooperative ways that are mutually beneficial to the social environment. If not, you'll be a societal outcast and have nobody to trade with, and you'll starve if you aren't jailed/killed.

[Monster Tent]

I already cashed out. I got out of USD and now have real money.

you must be crazy

I'd imagine having 20,000BTC/month in profits from SatoshiDICE probably helps him live without USD.  

Is that an official number, or an estimate from the blockchain?

So its an estimate from the blockchain. At this point, those profits are as real as pirateat40 profits. Notice how SDICE is not confirming or reporting official numbers. They are just letting people run wild with their own imaginations so they can sell more "shares"...

Makes more than mtgox with almost no overhead.

Doesn't sound very realistic does it? More revenues from people willing to risk all-or-nothing dice, or from people trading day after day on mtgox? I don't think so

Your theory is that SatoshiDICE is playing itself in order to generate fake profits and sell more shares?

I can't really see any way to discount said theory.... anyone else?

They would need to actually send the 'fake' profits to the real owners of the shares so it seems like a terrible plan. Now if they didn't have other investors then making 'fake' wagers for publicity would be possible.

I just dont get why SD is so popular. It seems like its  a game targeted at assburgers since you dont need to have any interaction with other people so its completely sanitised. But then I cant stand poker machines either.

[bitcoinBull]

They would need to actually send the 'fake' profits to the real owners of the shares so it seems like a terrible plan. Now if they didn't have other investors then making 'fake' wagers for publicity would be possible.

First off, to my knowledge so far they haven't sent any profits to any shareholders. And secondly, if they do start paying dividends, they could just be paying them from the principal/IPO cost of the shares. Then its in their interest to keep doing so, as long they issue and sell more shares.

The SatoshiDice operator(s) can use the house funds to simulate players and revenue, obviously at no risk. Whether there are investors or not has no effect on the possibility of inflating players and revenue by simply generating a bunch of transactions to the SatoshiDice addresses. However, if they are raising funds from investors or trying to sell the business (and they are), then to inflate revenues is clearly in seller's best short-term greedy interest. They don't care about the long-term viability because they're selling their stake.

[Technomage]

I do small cash outs occasionally but overall I'm in the camp of "never cashing out". Bitcoins are my primary long term savings and I plan on using them directly for goods and services as needed.

Obviously if something extremely negative happens my outlook could change entirely but as it stands I'm certainly in it for the long haul.

[thoughtfan]

First off, to my knowledge so far they haven't sent any profits to any shareholders.

I'm afraid to have to inform you that says more about your failure to do even the most basic fact checking than it does about what is going on with S.DICE

And secondly, if they do start paying dividends, they could just be paying them from the principal/IPO cost of the shares.

Again, one of the beauties of this business model with Bitcoin is that it is largely transparent.  The statistical analysis that is done on a daily basis by someone independent of evoorhees (and can be checked by anyone with the the requisite understandably of how it works) gives us figures that tell us what the monthly profit is.  From that it can be calculated approximately what the dividend will be.  So if the dividend is paid and it is what is expected I'm failing to see the potential you're claiming for skulduggery.

On the 'insider playing' point, technically you may have a point in that somebody with an interest in inflating the value of the business could be playing the game all the time and getting the losses back as part of their dividend.  However this is more likely to have been the case before any shares were made public.  The higher the proportion of existing stock is owned publicly, the higher the proportion of the profits made from 'insider playing' that doesn't go back to the player.  I'm not saying it's not possible but it is getting less likely.  Also, if the purpose of this whole underhand exercise was to maximise the demand for and the price of the stock why on earth would the Monday tranche of stocks have been put on the market without announcement at ~60% of what they were trading for at the time?

Please by all means keep up with the scepticism. I guess we're all vulnerable to some degree of getting carried away with excitement, confidence and trust to our own detriment so it is healthy for us all that some here are airing their doubts.  However you'd come over as more credible and be of better service to the rest of us if you'd do some fact checking and research first.

Edit:  Apologies all for being off-topic but bitcoinBull has been raising this point on a number of threads and I thought should be put right on the most blatantly incorrect aspects (so the casual reader is not misinformed).  Maybe bitcoinBull and EskimoBob should start their own thread to put forward the theory that SD is a scam.  Their intentions may be good but bringing the same points up repetitively in different threads I'm afraid makes it come across (to me at least) as conspiracy-theory FUD.

[thoughtfan]

To get back on topic. I cashed out 50% just above $13. I'll start buying back in again at single figures.  

Good luck with that  I admire your confidence.  

I'm following the advice given me by a long-time pro trader when he said 'never trade into a falling market'.  In common with many who have commented on this thread, I've switched paradigms and am not looking at my Bitcoin holding from a fiat investment perspective but looking at it as the currency with which I hope over time to be doing more and more of my daily dealings.

Therefore, from a long-term Bitcoin optimist perspective, it's the falling fiat market I'd be trading - which is too risky for me

[jl2012]

They would need to actually send the 'fake' profits to the real owners of the shares so it seems like a terrible plan. Now if they didn't have other investors then making 'fake' wagers for publicity would be possible.

First off, to my knowledge so far they haven't sent any profits to any shareholders. And secondly, if they do start paying dividends, they could just be paying them from the principal/IPO cost of the shares. Then its in their interest to keep doing so, as long they issue and sell more shares.

The SatoshiDice operator(s) can use the house funds to simulate players and revenue, obviously at no risk. Whether there are investors or not has no effect on the possibility of inflating players and revenue by simply generating a bunch of transactions to the SatoshiDice addresses. However, if they are raising funds from investors or trying to sell the business (and they are), then to inflate revenues is clearly in seller's best short-term greedy interest. They don't care about the long-term viability because they're selling their stake.

They have paid thousands BTC for dividend: http://mpex.co/?mpsic=S.DICE

Maybe it's just a pump-and-dump trick. Not only the players are fake, they also pretend to be investors. They may just buy 90% of their IPO so the actual dividend they paid is minimal. By pumping the profits, they can sell their shares with very high premium. When they have sold most of their shares, those fake players will disappear.

[sublime5447]

Procreation of the most greedy, or "survival of the fittest", is a myth perpetuated by sociopaths who don't understand evolution. On both a biological level and a societal level, the rule of thumb is "survival of the most cooperative." Mutual aid and benefit is the only way organisms thrive in an environment. It starves and goes extinct if it eats the last bit of its food source, so for long-term success it must act in a way that is mutually beneficial to its food source.

Same with humans; acting greedy might be advantageous in the very short-term, but to thrive long-term requires acting in cooperative ways that are mutually beneficial to the social environment. If not, you'll be a societal outcast and have nobody to trade with, and you'll starve if you aren't jailed/killed.

"the rule of thumb is "survival of the most cooperative." Mutual aid and benefit is the only way organisms thrive in an environment." This is what the greedy bitcoin community needs to learn. Selfishness is a virtue if you realize that helping other people is a act of selfishness. If the quality of life of your neighbor is better your quality of life will be better. Markets reward the individuals that do the most good for other people and punish the greedy and selfish. If you think you are going to game the system and hoard the coins and make millions you are a fool the market will punish you. 

[Spaceman_Spiff]

Procreation of the most greedy, or "survival of the fittest", is a myth perpetuated by sociopaths who don't understand evolution. On both a biological level and a societal level, the rule of thumb is "survival of the most cooperative." Mutual aid and benefit is the only way organisms thrive in an environment. It starves and goes extinct if it eats the last bit of its food source, so for long-term success it must act in a way that is mutually beneficial to its food source.

Same with humans; acting greedy might be advantageous in the very short-term, but to thrive long-term requires acting in cooperative ways that are mutually beneficial to the social environment. If not, you'll be a societal outcast and have nobody to trade with, and you'll starve if you aren't jailed/killed.

"the rule of thumb is "survival of the most cooperative." Mutual aid and benefit is the only way organisms thrive in an environment."

Fittest means those most adapted to ensure offspring survival.  This can aided by cooperation, greed, intelligence, stupidity, physical strength or whatever, it all depends on the local environment at that point in time.

This is what the greedy bitcoin community needs to learn. Selfishness is a virtue if you realize that helping other people is a act of selfishness. If the quality of life of your neighbor is better your quality of life will be better. Markets reward the individuals that do the most good for other people and punish the greedy and selfish. If you think you are going to game the system and hoard the coins and make millions you are a fool the market will punish you.  

I'll admit I am a greedy pig that wants to get rich easy.  Honestly, who doesn't?  
But bitcoin in itself is a system which I value greatly principally as well.  What problem do you see with a decentralised open-source, non-inflatable-to-oblivion kind of currency?
Also, peoples opinion on who does good and who is selfish varies greatly.  Some would say the person who has a large company is a selfish fat-cat that profits on the labor of his workers, others believe he created the framework to employ a lot of people and provide valuable services to the community...  While I am personally inclined to the second opinion, I suppose the real answer is somewhere in between, but relies mostly on the details of each particular case.

[sublime5447]

Mark my words holiday you will lose it all. Why should you not hold bitcoins? because there are no barriers to entry, it can be done better, it is volatile. The wealth isnt the bitcoin. Bitcoin will not just go forever. You dont create wealth by holding bitcoins you create wealth when you sell btc and buy something real.
The money is an illusion the wealth is real, an investment is not an investment if it doesn't make you wealth. 

[Spaceman_Spiff]

it can be done better.

What is stopping you?  Clearly you can make a lot of money by being an early adopter of a currency?
Or if money does not interest you, think about how you will save all future bitcoin users from this horrible bitcoin experiment.

[sublime5447]

It is hard to tell you what asset class to get into. In a fiat debt based monetary system it is difficult to find undervalued assets. I would recommend 10% silver 20% cash 40% real estate 30% digital currency. I believe that the world is going to enter into a huge deflationary collapse in the next decade. You should have a strategy of preserving wealth. I would not be 100% invested in btc! and I would not buy now. (22.37)     

[johnyj]

Mark my words holiday you will lose it all. Why should you not hold bitcoins? because there are no barriers to entry, it can be done better, it is volatile. The wealth isnt the bitcoin. Bitcoin will not just go forever. You dont create wealth by holding bitcoins you create wealth when you sell btc and buy something real.
The money is an illusion the wealth is real, an investment is not an investment if it doesn't make you wealth. 

In classical economics this statement about wealth is true, but today supply and demand is the only measurement of value

There are many illusions in today's world: An iphone, an HDTV, a movie... They did not really bring you anything physically but you feel happy looking and playing with them, it is the happiness level affect the demand of an illusion. Wealth does not only contain physical things, psychologic demand could also create wealth

FED created an illusion called USD, and US government sell bonds to FED to get USD, bankers sell their loans to FED to get USD... an illusion works as long as some one want it

People want BTC, at least it can give them confident to fight inflation

[rpietila]

Please guys, you give me creeps. Not even one has yet pointed out that "greed" originally does not mean you want to get ahead with your *own* life!

"Greed" is that you want an unfair, unjust, unlawful, fraudulent, or coerced gain from *others*. So that they are worse off.

Doing or not doing something with your own, can never be greed. Hoarding is not greed. Envying somebody's hoard is greed.

[SaintFlow]

- i find your lack of faith disturbing

That's your prerogative. But remember, faith in an idea doesn't preclude skepticism about its prototyped implementation.

- one does not simply cash out of bitcoin

Isn't that a problem?

I mean, sure, you can make arguments that on the fundamentals BTC is a better currency than FRNs. But right now FRNs have better purchase utility, so the fact that it's hard to exchange BTC for fiat... doesn't that hamper BTC's usefulness?

Unless this was just a throwaway line about how BTC is so cool that you should never want to cash out.

thank you for actually taking my statements serious. I agree with you on the need for skepticism. I continues to be among the best tools in the box. With it goes observation, experimentation, attitude and the self fulfilling prophecy.

The assumption of "cashing out" is that you would be done with bitcoin.
                                             =    
Really what happens is  "recieving reward for distribution"!

[Walter Rothbard]

You dont create wealth by holding bitcoins you create wealth when you sell btc and buy something real.

You are describing consumption, which is actually the opposite of wealth creation.

In truth, you create wealth when you acquire bitcoin.  And if you hold them, you are abstaining from consuming that wealth, which makes all of us wealthier.  So, go on and "hoard" guys!