BTC prise isnt rising! USD is loosing value, thats all!

[BTCGOLD]

BTC prise isnt rising! USD is loosing value, thats all!

[1715649474]

1715649474

[1715649474]

1715649474

[DeathAndTaxes]

Well... true but that doesn't explain the magnitude of the price rise.

Compare Bitcoin to gold, or a basket of commodities and it is still rising.

[phatsphere]

no, certainly not. there is also the block reward halving ...

[debianlinux]

In other news, man continues to struggle with proper spelling.

[meanig]

If the USD lost 50% of its value in 1 month I wouldn't like to be working in law enforcement.

[twolifeinexile]

BTC prise isnt rising! USD is loosing value, thats all!

This is goldbug like mentality and seems not aligned with what market has said. (Gold is in a chocking mode, bitcoin is as volatilie as a butterfly and up more than 50% in a few months , even though bitcoin supply is increaseing at the moment)

Maybe long-term wise, USD is doomed to loose value, but not now, at least not a pace that is in any significance.

[keystroke]

If the USD lost 50% of its value in 1 month I wouldn't like to be working in law enforcement.

If the USD loses 50% of its value in 1 month we will ALL be working in law enforcement

[sublime5447]

Bitcoin is in a greed and speculation induced bubble. The bitcoin community is full of crooks. I think that there are unrealistic expectations and a lot of ignorance fueling this mania. It is starting to look like a bad ending to me, series of bubbles and burst new adopters abandoning the currency for a simpler to use, secure and more stable. Maybe competition would help to level bitcoin out. Right now there is a monopoly on anonymous digital currency I hope that changes fast. I am going to be pushing ltc and any other digital coins that come out. I dont know if you can tell but i dont like what is being done with bitcoin. 

[SgtSpike]

Bitcoin is in a greed and speculation induced bubble. The bitcoin community is full of crooks. I think that there are unrealistic expectations and a lot of ignorance fueling this mania. It is starting to look like a bad ending to me, series of bubbles and burst new adopters abandoning the currency for a simpler to use, secure and more stable. Maybe competition would help to level bitcoin out. Right now there is a monopoly on anonymous digital currency I hope that changes fast. I am going to be pushing ltc and any other digital coins that come out. I dont know if you can tell but i dont like what is being done with bitcoin. 

Go away... please, just leave.  We get it - you don't like Bitcoin.  So move on with your life and leave the rest of us to it.

[sublime5447]

No you dont get it at all. I love bitcoin . Seriously I think it is the coolest most powerful thing that I have ever seen. I am a true believer in P2P currency. It really think that it is going to radically change the world. I am so crazy that I think it will end war and government and distribute the wealth more evenly. I think individuals being their own bank is awesome I mean truly awesome. What I dont like is how a bunch of assholes are ruining it and driving people away.

[SgtSpike]

No you dont get it at all. I love bitcoin . Seriously I think it is the coolest most powerful thing that I have ever seen. I am a true believer in P2P currency. It really think that it is going to radically change the world. I am so crazy that I think it will end war and government and distribute the wealth more evenly. I think individuals being their own bank is awesome I mean truly awesome. What I dont like is how a bunch of assholes are ruining it and driving people away.

The "flaws" you point out (bubbles and busts, full of crooks, etc) are a natural byproduct of the design of Bitcoins.  Complaining about them is annoying, because they cannot be fixed by anything but increased usage of Bitcoin.  In fact, complaining at all is annoying - instead, make specific suggestions to specific people about what they can do to help make Bitcoin better.

[Luno]

The US is ahead in the money printing race, so the Euro is gaining (6,4% since November), that might explain less buying of Bitcoin from Europe?

[sublime5447]

Specifically people can stop hoarding coins and use them as currency not just a speculative investment. Specifically people can start saying what can I do for bitcoin not what can bitcoin do for me, but that is not going to happen. What is going to happen is another coin will compete with bitcoin driving the price way down and crushing a lot people in the process. Bitcoins are just hot potatoes right now someone is going to get burned. Deals aren't good deals if they aren't good for everyone. What I am complaining about is not "just the way it has to be" it is just the way users have made it. Bitcoin can and will do better it just might have to be forced into doing what is right.

[twolifeinexile]

Specifically people can stop hoarding coins and use them as currency not just a speculative investment. Specifically people can start saying what can I do for bitcoin not what can bitcoin do for me, but that is not going to happen. What is going to happen is another coin will compete with bitcoin driving the price way down and crushing a lot people in the process. Bitcoins are just hot potatoes right now someone is going to get burned. Deals aren't good deals if they aren't good for everyone. What I am complaining about is not "just the way it has to be" it is just the way users have made it. Bitcoin can and will do better it just might have to be forced into doing what is right.

With a limited supply and upwards potential (if bitcoin succeed in the end), then naturally people will hoard, this is not something anyone can control. It is the natural course of action.
actually, without speculators and hoarders, bitcoin may not reach its value in the end. Since these hoarders/speculators are backers of bitcoin, maintaining a price when there isn't so much economic activity. Just as someone in this borad posted, they want to become the "new elite", there is no social good intentions in many people's investing decisions and this is probably shouldn't be blamed either.

Anyone, bitcoin opens the box and genie is out, digital p2p currency will become a reality in the future (maybe some other xxxcoin, but who knows, bitcoin is still the leading candidate).

[SgtSpike]

Specifically people can stop hoarding coins and use them as currency not just a speculative investment. Specifically people can start saying what can I do for bitcoin not what can bitcoin do for me, but that is not going to happen. What is going to happen is another coin will compete with bitcoin driving the price way down and crushing a lot people in the process. Bitcoins are just hot potatoes right now someone is going to get burned. Deals aren't good deals if they aren't good for everyone. What I am complaining about is not "just the way it has to be" it is just the way users have made it. Bitcoin can and will do better it just might have to be forced into doing what is right.

So you expect a crowd that is less into hoarding and more into doing things "for the coin" will join alt-coin projects?  Why couldn't people get burned just as easily on alt coins? (hint: they have already)

Lots of people ARE doing great things on Bitcoin's front.  Not much is being done for other alt-coins.  So why do you say that Bitcoin has failed and alt-coins have not, when it appears to be exactly the opposite?

People will speculate and hoard ANYTHING.  Nothing you can do will stop that.  Learn to live with that aspect of a decentralized currency, because it is here to stay.

[Qoheleth]

The "flaws" you point out (bubbles and busts, full of crooks, etc) are a natural byproduct of the design of Bitcoins.  Complaining about them is annoying, because they cannot be fixed by anything but increased usage of Bitcoin.  In fact, complaining at all is annoying - instead, make specific suggestions to specific people about what they can do to help make Bitcoin better.

I think bubbles are mostly unavoidable right now. The market isn't mature. But that means that if you take a strategy that bets on volatility, you can help stabilize the price and make money at the same time. And the more people making money that way, the more stable the market becomes.

As for crooks... I think the biggest suggestion I have is to rein in the ongoing meme of selling Bitcoin based on its potential for growth. Most of us are bullish here. Some think BTC can take over a significant fraction of the online payment universe, in which case bitcoins will be worth hundreds, maybe even thousands of dollars. Some think BTC might start replacing fiat currency wholesale, in which case you've got an even bigger growth potential.

The problem is that getting new people into Bitcoin via these kinds of arguments is screwing up the community. There's a lot of folks who aren't technically apt but are smart with their money, and if you tell them about Bitcoin's growth potential their HYIP flag will go up and they'll stop caring. But if you talk to someone with a lot of hope but not a lot of hard knocks, it sounds like this huge, awesome idea, and they'll buy in. And that's the kind of person that has attracted conmen to the community ever since things took off in early 2011.

So I guess my specific suggestion is, if you're evangelizing, evangelize about how it's a currency that can be transferred online, without having to trust a third party that (coughpaypalcough) can freeze all your money arbitrarily when you need it most. Evangelize about how you can use this system even if you don't trust the BTC/USD exchange rate, because there's services that'll automatically turn your internet monopoly money into "real" fiat as part of checkout. If you focus on the huge growth potential, no matter how true it might be, you will attract naive fools and conmen, and repel smart money, and that's a great way to turn an economy and a community into a scam-infested byword.

Edit: In response to the original post, I'll just echo what other people have been saying and point out that the price of peanut butter hasn't doubled in the last two months.

[sublime5447]

I respect you opinion but I do disagree. People dont hoard tulip bulbs any more. Computer code is not the way to hold wealth but is an excellent way to send it.  So when a coin is out there that is used and not held it will win out, if bitcoin can become it will grow if not it will end quick as myspace. 

[SgtSpike]

The "flaws" you point out (bubbles and busts, full of crooks, etc) are a natural byproduct of the design of Bitcoins.  Complaining about them is annoying, because they cannot be fixed by anything but increased usage of Bitcoin.  In fact, complaining at all is annoying - instead, make specific suggestions to specific people about what they can do to help make Bitcoin better.

I think bubbles are mostly unavoidable right now. The market isn't mature. But that means that if you take a strategy that bets on volatility, you can help stabilize the price and make money at the same time. And the more people making money that way, the more stable the market becomes.

As for crooks... I think the biggest suggestion I have is to rein in the ongoing meme of selling Bitcoin based on its potential for growth. Most of us are bullish here. Some think BTC can take over a significant fraction of the online payment universe, in which case bitcoins will be worth hundreds, maybe even thousands of dollars. Some think BTC might start replacing fiat currency wholesale, in which case you've got an even bigger growth potential.

The problem is that getting new people into Bitcoin via these kinds of arguments is screwing up the community. There's a lot of folks who aren't technically apt but are smart with their money, and if you tell them about Bitcoin's growth potential their HYIP flag will go up and they'll stop caring. But if you talk to someone with a lot of hope but not a lot of hard knocks, it sounds like this huge, awesome idea, and they'll buy in. And that's the kind of person that has attracted conmen to the community ever since things took off in early 2011.

So I guess my specific suggestion is, if you're evangelizing, evangelize about how it's a currency that can be transferred online, without having to trust a third party that (coughpaypalcough) can freeze all your money arbitrarily when you need it most. Evangelize about how you can use this system even if you don't trust the BTC/USD exchange rate, because there's services that'll automatically turn your internet monopoly money into "real" fiat as part of checkout. If you focus on the huge growth potential, no matter how true it might be, you will attract naive fools and conmen, and repel smart money, and that's a great way to turn an economy and a community into a scam-infested byword.

Edit: In response to the original post, I'll just echo what other people have been saying and point out that the price of peanut butter hasn't doubled in the last two months.

Yep, bubbles are unavoidable for now.  As more people begin to use Bitcoin, there will be less and less bubbling.  It will stabilize to gold or silver levels (would be my guess).  Even then, bubbles of some significance might still exist, they will just be slower to act.  Not as much day-to-day volatility.

Also agree with your ideas of evangelizing Bitcoin.  As much as it's fun to talk about the potential for Bitcoin prices to rise, the better benefits to tout would be about how quickly and cheaply money can be sent to anyone, anywhere in the world.  Anyone intimately familiar with wire transfer fees should be interested immediately.

[steamboat]

Bitcoin is in a greed and speculation induced bubble. The bitcoin community is full of crooks. I think that there are unrealistic expectations and a lot of ignorance fueling this mania. It is starting to look like a bad ending to me, series of bubbles and burst new adopters abandoning the currency for a simpler to use, secure and more stable. Maybe competition would help to level bitcoin out. Right now there is a monopoly on anonymous digital currency I hope that changes fast. I am going to be pushing ltc and any other digital coins that come out. I dont know if you can tell but i dont like what is being done with bitcoin. 

Go away... please, just leave.  We get it - you don't like Bitcoin.  So move on with your life and leave the rest of us to it.

People like sublime exist everywhere. Use them as practice for speaking with others irl. His misgivings and disinformation are unfortunately the norm, not the exception. Bitcoin will not gain popular adoption until the brainwashing, ignorance, and lies of the current regime are addressed and debunked. Practice makes perfect

Specifically people can stop hoarding coins and use them as currency not just a speculative investment.

What issue do you see arising from hoarding coins? How will increased spending fix that issue? Why do you view speculative investment as bad for Bitcoin, and why do you think this won't occur with any cryptocurrency?

Specifically people can start saying what can I do for bitcoin not what can bitcoin do for me, but that is not going to happen.

Why do you think there aren't people doing exactly that? Why do you feel Bitcoin requires its users to help do what it was designed to do? Do you need to help a shovel be a shovel, or a horse be a horse?

What is going to happen is another coin will compete with bitcoin driving the price way down and crushing a lot people in the process.

What improvements will the new currency have over Bitcoin that will cause people to adopt it instead of Bitcoin? Why do you feel these improvements cannot be adopted by Bitcoin? On a deeper level, I believe you may be implying the current price of BTC is due to speculation. Why do you believe BTC are overvalued? What technical basis do you have for this belief?

Bitcoins are just hot potatoes right now someone is going to get burned.

Again, this statement implies Bitcoin is overvalued at best, a pyramid scheme at worst. What are you basing this assumption on?

Deals aren't good deals if they aren't good for everyone.

I'm afraid this is completely false. Deals quite often are beneficial to one party while being detrimental to the other. As an example; A homeowner whose home is foreclosed on by the loan holder may be purchased by a third party for significantly less than the value of the home. The third party benefits on the deal, while the original homeowner loses. Your assumption, while altruistic, is not indicative of reality.

What I am complaining about is not "just the way it has to be" it is just the way users have made it. Bitcoin can and will do better it just might have to be forced into doing what is right.

Who will force Bitcoin to do what is right? Who, or what, do you believe Bitcoin is?

[sublime5447]

I do not have a misunderstanding of bitcoin. lets do one question at a time. I dont have the effort to write essays in here.This article explains way btc speculation is bad. I can also say the I have 200 customers that I am not selling btc to because they are hard to get right now and I cant hold them because the price isn't right.  

http://www.bitcoinmoney.com/post/42429739154/bitcoin-ends-january-up-51-largest-monthly

[Qoheleth]

Specifically people can stop hoarding coins and use them as currency not just a speculative investment.

What issue do you see arising from hoarding coins? How will increased spending fix that issue? Why do you view speculative investment as bad for Bitcoin, and why do you think this won't occur with any cryptocurrency?

I can't give any reason why Bitcoin is "special" here, but I can give two cents about why a high hoard/spend ratio is not good in the long term.

The way I see it, currency derives its value from two things:
1) What you can trade for it now, and
2) What you think you'll be able to trade for it in the future.

Let's be frank. Right now, the bitcoin economy is still foetal. There's plenty of things that you simply can't buy for bitcoins - you have to "cash out", whether to fiat or to fiat-denominated prepaid access (e.g. Amazon gift codes). So most of the value of BTC is not in "what I can trade for it now", but my expectations that in the future, BTC will bloom into a currency in its own right, and I will be able to trade a bitcoin for far more than dinner for two (the current cash-out exchange rate).

But that trust in the future can't hang on as trust forever. Sooner or later, people need to start trading valuable things for BTC. If they don't, then sooner or later the people waiting for BTC to become valuable will lose interest, and sell their coins. Speculation is speculative - tentative - able to create a downward spiral if long-term confidence that the bitcoin universe will become an economy proper ever runs out.

Whereas, spending BTC today helps create that future world for which the speculative players (and, frankly, most of us on this forum) are hoping.

Now, I'm not saying speculators are evil. If I didn't have the bulk of my BTC tied up at an exchange, I wouldn't be able to "bet on volatility" and thereby help the price stabilize. But a high speculation-to-physical-economy ratio is worrying, because it's a pattern of doubling down on the future without really doing much to help that future arrive. And even though there's not really a way to change it, I can understand why that would make someone bearish on BTC as an asset.

I can also say the I have 200 customers that I am not selling btc to because they are hard to get right now and I cant hold them because the price isn't right.

If you think the price isn't right, sign up with Coinbase or BitPay or one of those services. Give your customers the option to pay with BTC - be part of the solution - without exposing yourself to the risk of the fluctuating exchange rate.

[sublime5447]

I think that the major problems for bitcoin stem mostly from the monopoly status. Markets work because of competition, when btc has a alternative it will start to act right until then it is the gold rush the fools gold rush. 

[Walter Rothbard]

Specifically people can stop hoarding coins and use them as currency not just a speculative investment.

You can help encourage that by offering goods or services for sale in bitcoin.  Do so profitably, and you help everybody, including yourself.

[SgtSpike]

I think that the major problems for bitcoin stem mostly from the monopoly status. Markets work because of competition, when btc has a alternative it will start to act right until then it is the gold rush the fools gold rush. 

Anything that has any scarcity will always be speculative in nature.  Gold, silver, oil, food, etc.  People's actions with Bitcoin won't change with alternatives present.  That's like saying oil speculation will stop (which it hasn't) when it has alternatives (which it does - natural gas, biofuels, solar and wind energy, etc).

[sublime5447]

Specifically people can stop hoarding coins and use them as currency not just a speculative investment.

You can help encourage that by offering goods or services for sale in bitcoin.  Do so profitably, and you help everybody, including yourself.

I do my part. I sell boat parts for btc (no one has bought), I ran an ad on bitmit for glass tobacco pipe (no one has bought) I started a business makeing it easy to get bitcoins for paypal. I was selling on ebay. I have given over 200 new wallets their first coin, I have 500 business cards for bitcoin, I have a facebook page with almost 200 followers for bitcoin friends and have 16 for litecoin friends. We just started litecoin friends and are giving away a free litecoin for liking our page.

[Walter Rothbard]

Specifically people can stop hoarding coins and use them as currency not just a speculative investment.

You can help encourage that by offering goods or services for sale in bitcoin.  Do so profitably, and you help everybody, including yourself.

I do my part. I sell boat parts for btc (no one has bought), I ran an ad on bitmit for glass tobacco pipe (no one has bought) I started a business makeing it easy to get bitcoins for paypal. I was selling on ebay. I have given over 200 new wallets their first coin, I have 500 business cards for bitcoin, I have a facebook page with almost 200 followers for bitcoin friends and have 16 for litecoin friends. We just started litecoin friends and are giving away a free litecoin for liking our page.

If noone is buying, you aren't fully doing your part.  You have to do more: you have to do the hard work of figuring out what people are willing to pay for.  Apparently people don't want boat parts or glass tobacco pipe.  (I know I don't.)  That is why I added the stipulation: do so profitably.

[sublime5447]

Well seeing that i sold 125k of boat parts last year I dont think that is the problem. Sorry i cant sell weed on the SR. My products are in demand they sell in dollars. The problem is the coin isnt acting like money.

[Walter Rothbard]

Well seeing that i sold 125k of boat parts last year I dont think that is the problem. Sorry i cant sell weed on the SR. My products are in demand they sell in dollars. The problem is the coin isnt acting like money.

And it won't until enough people like you offer things that people are willing to trade bitcoins for.

[phatsphere]

you somehow immediately disqualify yourself, when you make the allegation, that bitcoin is a series of bubbles while it is currently at a sma30 all time high (or something like that).

questions for your homework:

1. maybe people in general want to buy a different kind of products than "hardware" as you sell? e.g. i'm thinking of web-space, hosting, VPN, music, video, games, in-game-items, ... ever thought of that?

2. why is it a problem, that "the coin isnt acting like money"? hint: it doesn't need to "act like", because there is no need to "act".

[Peter Lambert]

Well seeing that i sold 125k of boat parts last year I dont think that is the problem. Sorry i cant sell weed on the SR. My products are in demand they sell in dollars. The problem is the coin isnt acting like money.

Maybe you are not pricing things correctly? Maybe you need to advertise better?

You keep saying there needs to be less hoarding and more spending. I am not sure how you measure those things? All bitcoins are in somebodies wallet at all times, so you cannot decrease the number held. How do you tell the difference between "hoarding" and "saving"?

[sublime5447]

you somehow immediately disqualify yourself, when you make the allegation, that bitcoin is a series of bubbles while it is currently at a sma30 all time high (or something like that).

questions for your homework:

1. maybe people in general want to buy a different kind of products than "hardware" as you sell? e.g. i'm thinking of web-space, hosting, VPN, music, video, games, in-game-items, ... ever thought of that?

2. why is it a problem, that "the coin isnt acting like money"? hint: it doesn't need to "act like", because there is no need to "act".

bitcoin was in a bubble in 2011 it is in one now. If it keeps acting like this people wont use it. I dont even know what to say to way is it a problem that bitcoin inst acting like money. Money that you cant use like money. Why would that be a problem? Products do not conform to money money conforms to products. The wealth is the product bitcoin is just the representation of a promise anything can represent a promise. Seem like what I keep seeing again and again is people wanting other people to conform to bitcoin it has to be the other way around. 

[Walter Rothbard]

You are saying "bitcoin is not acting like money," but I am hearing "hundred dollar bills are not acting like twenty dollar bills" or "gold ounces are not acting like silver grams."

[meanig]

Well seeing that i sold 125k of boat parts last year I dont think that is the problem. Sorry i cant sell weed on the SR. My products are in demand they sell in dollars. The problem is the coin isnt acting like money.

You're aiming Bitcoin at the wrong demographic. I presume the type of person who buys boat parts is a retired baby boomer enjoying a big defined benefits pension. There aren't many of those in the Bitcoin community. Several surveys on this forum have shown the average Bitcoiner to be in the 16-30 age group.

[SgtSpike]

Well seeing that i sold 125k of boat parts last year I dont think that is the problem. Sorry i cant sell weed on the SR. My products are in demand they sell in dollars. The problem is the coin isnt acting like money.

And how many people who have Bitcoins to spend own boats?  Boat parts is a specialized niche of activity.  It doesn't appeal to many people.  When you take a small subset of the entire population of the world and offer a niche product to that subset, you're probably not going to get much in the way of sales unless it's steeply discounted or the products are specific to that subset (i.e., a subset of fishermen, for example).

The subset of Bitcoiners has nothing to do with boating, so you can't expect much in the way of sales until that subset grows much larger.  Instead, work on offering products relevant to that subset (gambling seems to be a big boon, or computer hardware, other electronics, etc).

[Peter Lambert]

The subset of Bitcoiners has nothing to do with boating,

A goat on a boat?

[DeathAndTaxes]

I do not have a misunderstanding of bitcoin. lets do one question at a time. I dont have the effort to write essays in here.This article explains way btc speculation is bad. I can also say the I have 200 customers that I am not selling btc to because they are hard to get right now and I cant hold them because the price isn't right.  

http://www.bitcoinmoney.com/post/42429739154/bitcoin-ends-january-up-51-largest-monthly

Strange I (well TC LLC) bought and sold a lot of Bitcoins in Jan the highest volume we have ever done.  The upward price didn't cause a problem, the hoarders didn't cause a problem, people being greedy or scammy didn't cause a problem.

So maybe you are just doing it wrong?  

bitcoin was in a bubble in 2011 it is in one now. If it keeps acting like this people wont use it.

Bitcoin will act how it acts, nobody controls it.  Your just pissing in the wind wanting Bitcoin to conform to your view of what is should be and how it should be.  Even if you convinced most people there still is absolutely nothing all of them could do.  

Still if people stop using it then it won't be in a bubble.  Problem solved.

[dree12]

You know, on a semi-related note, the value of one BTC now has almost exceeded the 1913 US dollar. Are we to reach parity?

[SgtSpike]

You know, on a semi-related note, the value of one BTC now has almost exceeded the 1913 US dollar. Are we to reach parity?

I'm waiting for the ever-elusive silver parity to be reached..!

[redbeans2012]

Just the growth of the gambling industry alone will create a great demand for bitcoins.

[DoomDumas]

The US is ahead in the money printing race, so the Euro is gaining (6,4% since November), that might explain less buying of Bitcoin from Europe?

I bet this is completely unrelated..

[sublime5447]

Well seeing that i sold 125k of boat parts last year I dont think that is the problem. Sorry i cant sell weed on the SR. My products are in demand they sell in dollars. The problem is the coin isnt acting like money.

And how many people who have Bitcoins to spend own boats?  Boat parts is a specialized niche of activity.  It doesn't appeal to many people.  When you take a small subset of the entire population of the world and offer a niche product to that subset, you're probably not going to get much in the way of sales unless it's steeply discounted or the products are specific to that subset (i.e., a subset of fishermen, for example).

The subset of Bitcoiners has nothing to do with boating, so you can't expect much in the way of sales until that subset grows much larger.  Instead, work on offering products relevant to that subset (gambling seems to be a big boon, or computer hardware, other electronics, etc).

I also sell btc on ebay and facebook for paypal. I think I have a good grasp on the number and experience of new users. I am one of the only places on the internet that you can get btc almost instantly. I say the market is way over valued. 

[notme]

Well seeing that i sold 125k of boat parts last year I dont think that is the problem. Sorry i cant sell weed on the SR. My products are in demand they sell in dollars. The problem is the coin isnt acting like money.

And how many people who have Bitcoins to spend own boats?  Boat parts is a specialized niche of activity.  It doesn't appeal to many people.  When you take a small subset of the entire population of the world and offer a niche product to that subset, you're probably not going to get much in the way of sales unless it's steeply discounted or the products are specific to that subset (i.e., a subset of fishermen, for example).

The subset of Bitcoiners has nothing to do with boating, so you can't expect much in the way of sales until that subset grows much larger.  Instead, work on offering products relevant to that subset (gambling seems to be a big boon, or computer hardware, other electronics, etc).

I also sell btc on ebay and facebook for paypal. I think I have a good grasp on the number and experience of new users. I am one of the only places on the internet that you can get btc almost instantly. I say the market is way over valued. 

Good luck with that.  I hope you like being overwhelmed with chargebacks followed by Paypal clawing back the money from your linked bank account.

[sublime5447]

I dont get charged back or i almost never get charged back. You can go to bitcoin friends and look under our photos our buying guide is there.

[sublime5447]

I dont get charged back or i almost never get charged back. You can go to bitcoin friends and look under our photos our buying guide is there.

there is a link under my name to my bitcoin friends page.

[notme]

I dont get charged back or i almost never get charged back. You can go to bitcoin friends and look under our photos our buying guide is there.

Cool story.  You are breaking Paypal's terms of service.  If you ever have a problem you will quickly discover how they feel about bitcoin traders.

[sublime5447]

they dont care. I sell btc on ebay np. When I sell btc on facebook they get paid too. You guys have PP all wrong. I have talked to them on the phone about 20 times about selling btc. If I am willing to secure my transactions and can do it in a way that my account isnt compromised they dont care. Why would they if I get charged back I take the loss and they still get their fees. They wont freeze my account I have cabbage loans tied to them. I am probably one of 3 or 4 who know how to sell on ebay. Plus I tell PP what accounts to watch for fraud and i email member when I find their accounts have been hacked.
 

[notme]

they dont care. I sell btc on ebay np. When I sell btc on facebook they get paid too. You guys have PP all wrong. I have talked to them on the phone about 20 times about selling btc. If I am willing to secure my transactions and can do it in a way that my account isnt compromised they dont care. Why would they if I get charged back I take the loss and they still get their fees. They wont freeze my account I have cabbage loans tied to them. I am probably one of 3 or 4 who know how to sell on ebay. Plus I tell PP what accounts to watch for fraud and i email member when I find their accounts have been hacked.
 

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2555.msg101084#msg101084

[sublime5447]

Ya I have seen that before. It doesnt concern me at all. If I get to where I am doing coinbase volume then I might have to rethink it. I am not an exchange I sell btc as a commodity. It is scale-able the way that I do it though. My vision would be a network of sellers selling through FB with a master scamming list. Sellers would get clients based on geography. For instance fs someone messaged me and had a NY address I would pass them off to a seller from their area, (maybe for a referral fee)?   

[🏰 TradeFortress 🏰]

Specifically people can stop hoarding coins and use them as currency not just a speculative investment. Specifically people can start saying what can I do for bitcoin not what can bitcoin do for me, but that is not going to happen. What is going to happen is another coin will compete with bitcoin driving the price way down and crushing a lot people in the process. Bitcoins are just hot potatoes right now someone is going to get burned. Deals aren't good deals if they aren't good for everyone. What I am complaining about is not "just the way it has to be" it is just the way users have made it. Bitcoin can and will do better it just might have to be forced into doing what is right.

LOL

If you seriously believe this, then let's bet mtGox USD (w/ escrow) that another cryptocurrency will have a higher market capitalization than Bitcoin in the next year.

If you don't take up this offer, please disappear from this thread.

1. Another coin will compete with bitcoin:
How? Something like 99% of the development is done with bitcoin, not [insert alt coin here].

2. Speculative investment:
So is gold. Now if you take a look at the history of gold...

3. Bitcoin are just hot potatoes right now:
Subjective comment that makes no sense.

[sublime5447]

I never put a time line on it. No bitcoin is the most popular right now. I am not interested in your bet and dont agree with your statement. The difference between gold and bitcoin is that gold is actually usable in the real world also there is a finite about of gold. That is not true of bitcoin. Bitcoins being hot potatoes makes perfect sense. I am not holding btc right now because the price is to crazy. I sell btc to the general public and cant do it because the price changes to often by too much, plus it is way over valued right now.   

[notme]

I never put a time line on it. No bitcoin is the most popular right now. I am not interested in your bet and dont agree with your statement. The difference between gold and bitcoin is that gold is actually usable in the real world also there is a finite about of gold. That is not true of bitcoin. Bitcoins being hot potatoes makes perfect sense. I am not holding btc right now because the price is to crazy. I sell btc to the general public and cant do it because the price changes to often by too much, plus it is way over valued right now.   

I find it much easier to trade my bitcoins for goods than to get someone to accept my gold in exchange.  If you're claiming bitcoin isn't finite that is false as well.  There will never be more than 21 million btc.

[sublime5447]

21 million divided by what? there are basically infinite number of coins or hundreths of coins or thousandths of coins or billionths of a coins it is just numbers. How many numbers are there? I guess you could say the same about gold though when it got to thousandths of a gram I think people might start to think there was nothing there. The point is gold is real bitcoin it just and idea in the cloud just 1's and 0's. 

[notme]

21 million divided by what? there are basically infinite number of coins or hundreths of coins or thousandths of coins or billionths of a coins it is just numbers. How many numbers are there? I guess you could say the same about gold though when it got to thousandths of a gram I think people might start to think there was nothing there. The point is gold is real bitcoin it just and idea in the cloud just 1's and 0's. 

21 million whole coins * 10,000,000 satoshis per bitcoin.  Still not infinite.  Being physical makes transacting in gold, as well as trusting the purity of an individual piece of metal a major challenge.  Bitcoin doesn't have these problems.

[sublime5447]

I agree bitcoin has it's own problems. Money is a promise there is no need for a physical representation of money. Digital money is great, but it is not gold it is not silver it is not a retirement investment it will not go up forever 50 years from now bitcoin will be a memory. I love the idea of digital money I truly believe it is going to change the world, bitcoin will be a part of that.   

[SgtSpike]

21 million divided by what? there are basically infinite number of coins or hundreths of coins or thousandths of coins or billionths of a coins it is just numbers. How many numbers are there? I guess you could say the same about gold though when it got to thousandths of a gram I think people might start to think there was nothing there. The point is gold is real bitcoin it just and idea in the cloud just 1's and 0's. 

Why does it matter how many decimal places you can divide a Bitcoin into?  1 Bitcoin is still 1 Bitcoin, just like 1 ounce of gold is still 1 ounce of gold.  Just because you can divide it into lots of little pieces doesn't make it any more common.

[sublime5447]

It doesnt unless you think about it in physical terms. If you divided one gram of gold a thousands times you would have a grain of gold if you multiplied it thousand time you would have a brick. I you divide or multiply bitcoin you will have numbers and just numbers. I am a huge fan of bitcoin. I just think people believe it to be something it is not. I see lots of post with 1000 dollar btc or my favorite "I think we are all going to retire very wealth men" or something like that. BTC is not wealth and it is not scarce it is not the last digital currency either. Just because something is unavailable doesn't make it scarce ( at least not in aggregate). Just because the TP is down the hall from me when I take a dump doesn't mean it is scarce.   

[🏰 TradeFortress 🏰]

I never put a time line on it. No bitcoin is the most popular right now. I am not interested in your bet and dont agree with your statement. The difference between gold and bitcoin is that gold is actually usable in the real world also there is a finite about of gold. That is not true of bitcoin. Bitcoins being hot potatoes makes perfect sense. I am not holding btc right now because the price is to crazy. I sell btc to the general public and cant do it because the price changes to often by too much, plus it is way over valued right now.  

> I am not interested in your bet

Okay, I guess you don't want to put your money where your mouth is.

> The difference between gold and bitcoin is that gold is actually usable in the real world

Take a look at the gold ETFs. They're certainly not useable in the "real world", but look at the market cap.

> There is a finite amount of gold

There is a finite amount of real bitcoin.

> That is not true of bitcoin

Define.

> Bitcoins being hot potatoes makes perfect sense

I guess you're never going to invest in anything unless it has being around for 10 years? Don't look into the potential of Apple, instead base off your speculation off the age of the asset!  

> I am not holding btc right now because the price is to crazy

Sure, that's obviously true although if you did held it you'd have made a lot of profit.

> plus it is way over valued right now.  

Subjective opinion disguised as fact / statement.

[mb300sd]

It doesnt unless you think about it in physical terms. If you divided one gram of gold a thousands times you would have a grain of gold if you multiplied it thousand time you would have a brick. I you divide or multiply bitcoin you will have numbers and just numbers. I am a huge fan of bitcoin. I just think people believe it to be something it is not. I see lots of post with 1000 dollar btc or my favorite "I think we are all going to retire very wealth men" or something like that. BTC is not wealth and it is not scarce it is not the last digital currency either. Just because something is unavailable doesn't make it scarce ( at least not in aggregate). Just because the TP is down the hall from me when I take a dump doesn't mean it is scarce.   

It may not be scarce for everyone, but it is for you at the time... I'd bet you'd be willing to pay alot more for it when your stuck on the toilet than in the store.

[sublime5447]

It doesnt unless you think about it in physical terms. If you divided one gram of gold a thousands times you would have a grain of gold if you multiplied it thousand time you would have a brick. I you divide or multiply bitcoin you will have numbers and just numbers. I am a huge fan of bitcoin. I just think people believe it to be something it is not. I see lots of post with 1000 dollar btc or my favorite "I think we are all going to retire very wealth men" or something like that. BTC is not wealth and it is not scarce it is not the last digital currency either. Just because something is unavailable doesn't make it scarce ( at least not in aggregate). Just because the TP is down the hall from me when I take a dump doesn't mean it is scarce.   

It may not be scarce for everyone, but it is for you at the time... I'd bet you'd be willing to pay alot more for it when your stuck on the toilet than in the store.

For sure... It is artificially scarce in that situation, Just like BTC. This is an important issue. So if TP was made artificially scarce by hoarding. Yes I would be willing to pay more maybe up to five dollars a roll, but there would be a limit. So what happens here is I buy at 2 then at 4 then at 5, but that is it after that fuck TP i will use magazines. So people are willing to bear the cost up to a point scarcity is not the only factor in determining value. If the BTC community continues to treat a currency like a commodity people will find alternatives. BTC is for spending not hoarding and the guys that do are selfish trolls that are tarnishing the image of an otherwise beautiful idea.

[Peter Lambert]

For sure... It is artificially scarce in that situation, Just like BTC. This is an important issue. So if TP was made artificially scarce by hoarding. Yes I would be willing to pay more maybe up to five dollars a roll, but there would be a limit. So what happens here is I buy at 2 then at 4 then at 5, but that is it after that fuck TP i will use magazines. So people are willing to bear the cost up to a point scarcity is not the only factor in determining value. If the BTC community continues to treat a currency like a commodity people will find alternatives. BTC is for spending not hoarding and the guys that do are selfish trolls that are tarnishing the image of an otherwise beautiful idea.

You keep saying that "BTC is for spending, not hoarding", but all bitcoins must be held by somebody at all times. How do you have people spending bitcoins if there is nobody holding them?

The TP example is a bad one because TP has a specific use, and as you point out, if the price rises too much for that use case then people will find alternatives. But the same does not apply to bitcoin, no matter what the exchange rate bitcoin functions just as well for its purpose: as a currency to transfer value between people. If I want to send $5 to my friend, if BTC is $20 then I send 0.25 btc, or if BTC is $100 I send 0.05 btc, or if BTC is $0.10 then I send 50 btc. See, it does not matter what the exchange rate is, in any case I can just as easily send that value through the network to my friend, or my supplier, or whoever I need to send money to.

[XxionxX]

This thread is totally derailed. It had such promise too :/

[BTCGOLD]

January 2017:

1 Bitcoin = 120 USD.




Reward per block: 12,5 Bitcoins
Total new Bitcoins per day: 1800

[sublime5447]

For sure... It is artificially scarce in that situation, Just like BTC. This is an important issue. So if TP was made artificially scarce by hoarding. Yes I would be willing to pay more maybe up to five dollars a roll, but there would be a limit. So what happens here is I buy at 2 then at 4 then at 5, but that is it after that fuck TP i will use magazines. So people are willing to bear the cost up to a point scarcity is not the only factor in determining value. If the BTC community continues to treat a currency like a commodity people will find alternatives. BTC is for spending not hoarding and the guys that do are selfish trolls that are tarnishing the image of an otherwise beautiful idea.

You keep saying that "BTC is for spending, not hoarding", but all bitcoins must be held by somebody at all times. How do you have people spending bitcoins if there is nobody holding them?

The TP example is a bad one because TP has a specific use, and as you point out, if the price rises too much for that use case then people will find alternatives. But the same does not apply to bitcoin, no matter what the exchange rate bitcoin functions just as well for its purpose: as a currency to transfer value between people. If I want to send $5 to my friend, if BTC is $20 then I send 0.25 btc, or if BTC is $100 I send 0.05 btc, or if BTC is $0.10 then I send 50 btc. See, it does not matter what the exchange rate is, in any case I can just as easily send that value through the network to my friend, or my supplier, or whoever I need to send money to.