Why the monero/bitmonero/MRO/BMR/XMR Cripplemined Fastmine matters

[traumschiff]

The existence of customized private miners does not imply the public ones are "crippled."

congratulation!

with a single line you just invalidated your ~1200 troll posts

you are complete nonsense

Miners use souped-up versions of cgminer.

Therefor, plain vanilla cgminer is crippled and CK is a scammer.

[/your especially stupid kind of fake logic]

Let me guess, you also believe Bitcoin was instamined, because only Satoshi and a couple of others cared to mine the very early blocks....  

When do you plan on trolling the STEEM topic and their premined/instamined scam where they state no premine/instamine in the OP? I would love to see it.

Or is it off-limits because Smooth is invested?   

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[MasterMined710]

how many bitmonero, bmr, mro, xmr monero were cripplemined the first 3 months? 

the question they don't want to answer. 

[smooth]

how many bitmonero, bmr, mro, xmr monero were cripplemined the first 3 months? 

the question they don't want to answer. 

Ask an objective question (in which case you can answer it from a block explorer, etc.) or might as well just make up your own answer.

[Spoetnik]

That miner comment again Icebreaker is bullshit an you know it.
Often in crypto we have seen a wide range of unfair stunts pulled with miners.
I have a million stories..

I could make a coin then code a GPU miner around it's new algo *mod*
Then only post a CPU miner and rape the shit out of it ..it's been done ..lots ..and YOU KNOW IT TOO !

Or how about making obstacles for windows user to have to try and fail to compile a miner
after the coin launched when Linux private miners are optimized compiled and running by the dev & friends on launch.

You guys making coins have pulled every fucking stunt in the book and played dumb every single step of the way.

Couple years back i had a jab and laughed at iGotSpots on a Troll Box..
I said to him ya ya you had 80+ GPU's mining you told me before.
He laughed back at me and said "i got far more than that" LOL

He made how many coins ?

Do i need to go on ? ..probably.

You guys love playing dumb (for the audience)

This isn't fucking FUD or Trolling either you whiny shilling corrupt greedy manipulative deceitful pricks.
This is ACTUALLY what happens behind closed doors 24/7 !

[AlexGR]

I could make a coin then code a GPU miner around it's new algo *mod*
Then only post a CPU miner and rape the shit out of it ..it's been done ..lots ..and YOU KNOW IT TOO !

The situation is worse than you think. For years, almost every CPU coin is actually cripplemined (to different degrees). The reason is that all the "sse, avx" ets enhanced miners, do not use packed commands / SIMDs.

This means that if a hash has like 3 steps (usually lot more than 10), a sequential-non-packed version will go like

1. 5-10 cpu cycles : first step of hashing
2. 5-10 cpu cycles: second step
3. 5-10 cpu cycles: last step of hashing

If you load 4 different hash candidates simultaneously, in the same thread, you can "pack" them with AVX/SSE and go like

1. 5-10 cpu cycles: first step of hashing for ALL 4 hashes
2. 5-10 cpu cycles: second step of hashing for ALL 4 hashes
3. 5-10 cpu cycles: last step of hashing for ALL 4 hashes

Again, that's in the context of the same cpu thread btw. It's kind of parallelism within the same core/thread.

In this way, Haswell can go from something like 8cycles per byte to ~2.5 with AVX2 for SHA256 and down to <1cycle/byte with AVX-512.

I initially thought coins who use memory hard algorithms are more immune, and they are to some extent, but since memory use (reduced scratchpad) can be traded for more processing work (shortcut), if the processing work is multiplied -say- by 8x, then the underlying assumptions of trading less memory use (shortcut) for (supposedly waaaaay) more cpu performance could be invalidated (to some degree). Because the assumption of what cpu power levels are, is based on ...scalar and not SIMD use.

[megges]

how many bitmonero, bmr, mro, xmr monero were cripplemined the first 3 months? 

the question they don't want to answer. 

Ask an objective question (in which case you can answer it from a block explorer, etc.) or might as well just make up your own answer.

I really thought you are an expert in making own assumptions and giving your own answers after all that bullshit i read from you on dash ... how often did you tell us eduffield has mined almost every xcoin within the instamine days? *facepalm* (or are you in blockchain analysis now, and can prove any of the "instamine scam" - "eduffield mined almost 2 mio coins" bullshit?!)

I really hate people throwing shit, and then if the shit hits the fan, and comes back to their own face, they just say, "hey that's something totally different" LOL

[generalizethis]

how many bitmonero, bmr, mro, xmr monero were cripplemined the first 3 months?  

the question they don't want to answer.  

Ask an objective question (in which case you can answer it from a block explorer, etc.) or might as well just make up your own answer.

I really thought you are an expert in making own assumptions and giving your own answers after all that bullshit i read from you on dash ... how often did you tell us eduffield has mined almost every xcoin within the instamine days? *facepalm* (or are you in blockchain analysis now, and can prove any of the "instamine scam" - "eduffield mined almost 2 mio coins" bullshit?!)

I really hate people throwing shit, and then if the shit hits the fan, and comes back to their own face, they just say, "hey that's something totally different" LOL

Questions:

How many dash were mined in the first two hours?

How many xmr were mined in the first two hours?

How many dash were mined in the first two days?

How many xmr were mined in the first two days?

How many dash were mined in first two months?

How many xmr were mined in first two months?

How much emissions were cut from dash's total supply?

How much emissions were cut from xmr's total supply?

Do the early mining totals potentially affect dash's power centralization (yes/no)? And if so, to what potential degree?

Do the early mining totals potentially affect xmr's power centralization (yes/no)? And if so, to what potential degree?

[MasterMined710]

how many bitmonero, bmr, mro, xmr monero were cripplemined the first 3 months? 

the question they don't want to answer. 

Ask an objective question (in which case you can answer it from a block explorer, etc.) or might as well just make up your own answer.

do you have a link to where this info can be easily found?
i need to recalculate the monero cripplemine. as i'm sure you know it's worse than previously disclosed.

  

[smooth]

how many bitmonero, bmr, mro, xmr monero were cripplemined the first 3 months? 

the question they don't want to answer. 

Ask an objective question (in which case you can answer it from a block explorer, etc.) or might as well just make up your own answer.

do you have a link to where this info can be easily found?
i need to recalculate the monero cripplemine. as i'm sure you know it's worse than previously disclosed.

"This info" meaning what? You made up the the term Cripplemine, haven't defined it clearly, and now AlexGR is telling us that pretty much every unit of every coin that has ever been mined was Cripplemined.

So, no, there is no link I'm aware of that will take you to Here are the Monero Cripplemine stats.

[AlexGR]

how many bitmonero, bmr, mro, xmr monero were cripplemined the first 3 months? 

the question they don't want to answer. 

Ask an objective question (in which case you can answer it from a block explorer, etc.) or might as well just make up your own answer.

do you have a link to where this info can be easily found?
i need to recalculate the monero cripplemine. as i'm sure you know it's worse than previously disclosed.

"This info" meaning what? You made up the the term Cripplemine, haven't defined it clearly, and now AlexGR is telling us that pretty much every unit of every coin that has ever been mined was Cripplemined.

So, no, there is no link I'm aware of that will take you to Here are the Monero Cripplemine stats.

Yes... CPU-coins... X11 has been gpu-mineable since mid-Feb 2014. Darkcoin issued a hefty bounty veeery early on (20 days old?) to have a GPU miner online as to avoid hidden GPU miners in the wild - I think the bounty was something like 2-3k DRK.

[smooth]

how many bitmonero, bmr, mro, xmr monero were cripplemined the first 3 months? 

the question they don't want to answer. 

Ask an objective question (in which case you can answer it from a block explorer, etc.) or might as well just make up your own answer.

do you have a link to where this info can be easily found?
i need to recalculate the monero cripplemine. as i'm sure you know it's worse than previously disclosed.

"This info" meaning what? You made up the the term Cripplemine, haven't defined it clearly, and now AlexGR is telling us that pretty much every unit of every coin that has ever been mined was Cripplemined.

So, no, there is no link I'm aware of that will take you to Here are the Monero Cripplemine stats.

Yes... CPU-coins... X11 has been gpu-mineable since mid-Feb 2014. Darkcoin issued a hefty bounty veeery early on (20 days old?) to have a GPU miner online as to avoid hidden GPU miners in the wild - I think the bounty was something like 2-3k DRK.

Wait, so coins that are highly GPU mineable but don't have a public GPU miner (it would have to be a public highly-optimized GPU miner, right?) for at least 20 days are not also Cripplemined by your definition? How many coins were mined in those 20+ days?

Where do you draw the line here?

BTW, your comments about SIMD optimizations were almost completely wrong when it comes to Monero's hash function. A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing.

[SockPuppetAccount]

Monero has a highly inflationary emission curve where around half the coins were mined in the first year and will have "Roughly 86% mined in 4 years".

By comparison, Bitcoin is almost 7 years old and only has 75% mined. It will take them another 4+ years to get to monero's 86%.

So it will take BTC & LTC ~11+ years to get to ~86% and monero only 4 years. It will take DASH ~ another 20 years to get to 86%.

Are you actually suggesting that in the long-run DASH has a more fair emission rate than BTC, LTC, and XMR?  This is an incredibly disingenuous statement to make because you ignore the fact that masternodes allow the original instaminers to approximately maintain or even increase their share of the total percentage of DASH in existence, year after year.

[AlexGR]

how many bitmonero, bmr, mro, xmr monero were cripplemined the first 3 months? 

the question they don't want to answer. 

Ask an objective question (in which case you can answer it from a block explorer, etc.) or might as well just make up your own answer.

do you have a link to where this info can be easily found?
i need to recalculate the monero cripplemine. as i'm sure you know it's worse than previously disclosed.

"This info" meaning what? You made up the the term Cripplemine, haven't defined it clearly, and now AlexGR is telling us that pretty much every unit of every coin that has ever been mined was Cripplemined.

So, no, there is no link I'm aware of that will take you to Here are the Monero Cripplemine stats.

Yes... CPU-coins... X11 has been gpu-mineable since mid-Feb 2014. Darkcoin issued a hefty bounty veeery early on (20 days old?) to have a GPU miner online as to avoid hidden GPU miners in the wild - I think the bounty was something like 2-3k DRK.

Wait, so coins that are highly GPU mineable but don't have a public GPU miner (it would have to be a public highly-optimized GPU miner, right?) for at least 20 days are not also Cripplemined by your definition? How many coins were mined in those 20+ days?

Where do you draw the line here?

BTW, your comments about SIMD optimizations were almost completely wrong when it comes to Monero's hash function. A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing.

I don't remember making a comment about Monero's hash function in particular, but I did make a comment on memory-hard hashes, having scrypt in mind. Cryptonight might also fall into the same category, or not, I haven't checked it. If its approach is doing it like scrypt, it might be equally vulnerable.

[AlexGR]

Wait, so coins that are highly GPU mineable but don't have a public GPU miner (it would have to be a public highly-optimized GPU miner, right?) for at least 20 days are not also Cripplemined by your definition? How many coins were mined in those 20+ days?

Where do you draw the line here?

Quark, with just 5 of the hashes, was a "cpu coin" for months. It took the "crowdfunded" GPU miner of darkcoin to then be used for quark also.

Actually what Darkcoin did, I doubt anyone has done in terms of mining fairness. "We are funding the development of GPU mining before anyone gets to develop it in private"... Who does that?

As for cripplemining, well, the issue with Monero was

1) it was intentionally crippled to be slower.

It appears from the simplicity of the fix that there may have been deliberate crippling of the hashing algorithm from introduction with ByteCoin.

Interesting. Could you extrapolate on this?

oaes_key_import_data calls are placed inside loops unnecessarily, which slows down the hash quite a bit during the scratchpad portions.

Wow, I just saw that. I agree with tacotime, it looks intentional.

So you mean the BCN engine was curbed all this time, and they just add to remove it to artificially increase it?

That's disgusting.

 

2) There were people mining with at least double the speed and the devs were ok with it:

Blame BCN developers - instamine yourself. Nice catchphrase you got here 



And here i thought people went to MRO to have a “clean” start but nope! instamining it with a fast linux hash... Cool!

You're welcome to optimize your own miner if you're so interested; you have the source code. Artforz GPU mined Bitcoin for a long time on his private OCL code on 4870s and got thousands of them. Bitcoin survives to this day, or so I'm told.

You're the developers after all. It's a good approach for a developer: we're instamining - you can too, if you're good enough! Promising coin - no shit.

 

+

3) There was a known cpu miner going much faster:

Hey,
NoodleDoodle optimized the slow hash code recently to about 225% performance. However, he has decided not to release the source code and has only released binaries. I think he is enjoying mining MRO with very high hash rates from Linux right now. Eventually we hope he will release the code.

Hope dies last 


And we also have a "catastrophic" problem with PoW:

Problem is that AES is not suitable as a hash (certainly not when employed as encryption) for it has too small of a output space (repeating patterns will be over a few number of bits), thus it will be possible to attack this with an algorithm to reduce the scratchpad size significantly from the 2MB.

I agree with this. Only a small number of bits of the output of AES are being used, but AES does not guarantee that all of its output bits are random. For example, consider an algorithm AES' which is just like AES except that it appends 10 trailing bits that are always zero (AES'(x) = AES(x) << 10). This would be just as secure as AES for encryption, but catastrophically bad for slow_hash.

I suspect the developers wanted to use AES because of the hardware support in Intel CPUs, but they made a mistake, though it isn't immediately apparent how catastrophic this is (unlike my toy example above for example). If they used a true secure hash, it would be much slower and likely not memory bound.

The algorithm can and should likely be improved in this regard, although I don't have any immediate suggestions how.

Monero #REKT 

[noobtrader]

Wait, so coins that are highly GPU mineable but don't have a public GPU miner (it would have to be a public highly-optimized GPU miner, right?) for at least 20 days are not also Cripplemined by your definition? How many coins were mined in those 20+ days?

Where do you draw the line here?

Quark, with just 5 of the hashes, was a "cpu coin" for months. It took the "crowdfunded" GPU miner of darkcoin to then be used for quark also.

Actually what Darkcoin did, I doubt anyone has done in terms of mining fairness. "We are funding the development of GPU mining before anyone gets to develop it in private"... Who does that?

As for cripplemining, well, the issue with Monero was

1) it was intentionally crippled to be slower.

It appears from the simplicity of the fix that there may have been deliberate crippling of the hashing algorithm from introduction with ByteCoin.

Interesting. Could you extrapolate on this?

oaes_key_import_data calls are placed inside loops unnecessarily, which slows down the hash quite a bit during the scratchpad portions.

Wow, I just saw that. I agree with tacotime, it looks intentional.

So you mean the BCN engine was curbed all this time, and they just add to remove it to artificially increase it?

That's disgusting.

 

2) There were people mining with at least double the speed and the devs were ok with it:

Blame BCN developers - instamine yourself. Nice catchphrase you got here 



And here i thought people went to MRO to have a “clean” start but nope! instamining it with a fast linux hash... Cool!

You're welcome to optimize your own miner if you're so interested; you have the source code. Artforz GPU mined Bitcoin for a long time on his private OCL code on 4870s and got thousands of them. Bitcoin survives to this day, or so I'm told.

You're the developers after all. It's a good approach for a developer: we're instamining - you can too, if you're good enough! Promising coin - no shit.

 

+

3) There was a known cpu miner going much faster:

Hey,
NoodleDoodle optimized the slow hash code recently to about 225% performance. However, he has decided not to release the source code and has only released binaries. I think he is enjoying mining MRO with very high hash rates from Linux right now. Eventually we hope he will release the code.

Hope dies last  


And we also have a "catastrophic" problem with PoW:

Problem is that AES is not suitable as a hash (certainly not when employed as encryption) for it has too small of a output space (repeating patterns will be over a few number of bits), thus it will be possible to attack this with an algorithm to reduce the scratchpad size significantly from the 2MB.

I agree with this. Only a small number of bits of the output of AES are being used, but AES does not guarantee that all of its output bits are random. For example, consider an algorithm AES' which is just like AES except that it appends 10 trailing bits that are always zero (AES'(x) = AES(x) << 10). This would be just as secure as AES for encryption, but catastrophically bad for slow_hash.

I suspect the developers wanted to use AES because of the hardware support in Intel CPUs, but they made a mistake, though it isn't immediately apparent how catastrophic this is (unlike my toy example above for example). If they used a true secure hash, it would be much slower and likely not memory bound.

The algorithm can and should likely be improved in this regard, although I don't have any immediate suggestions how.

Monero #REKT  

INDEED

"... The reality is community takeovers are garbage. The problem is they are taking over something that is always a scamcoin on one level or another. They have no motivation but cashing out and profit..."

[generalizethis]

Haven't seen any of that alleged "evidence". Only evidence in here so far is that Monero was intentionally released as a cripplemine to the public rendering it a scam.

Do you have evidence that it was intentional?

Do you have evidence that it affects the coin negatively, as in invalidating any of its claims of decentralization or privacy?

If you don't have evidence of one, then you're left with the thread's title being false and a complete waste of time. As an example: I can show that dash is an oligarchy, whether intentional or not, due to the way their paynode scheme works. These systems are designed to work trustlessly, so any hiccups (intentional or not) should be invalidated by the design, not left-up to the good or bad intentions of those who are engaged with it.

Still waiting.....

[AlexGR]

My personal resume on the coin

You never did any thing apart from compiling miner guides (thank you for that), and creating an optimized miner to (I assume) instamine the coin yourself. And yes, you spent hours & hours & hors on this forum just posting irrelevant things, like posting strategy for the dummies above, which will drive more users to your apparently instamined coin.

Congratulations, you've made it! The fair launch was soooo fair!

Disclaimer: I apologize if any of my assumptions insult anybody and would like the self-proclaimed authors to finally clarify on the following points:

1) How exactly did you benefit the community and the coin?
2) When is the open source miner going to be released? Why it wasn't? Please, provide exact technical details on that "unstable code thing".
3) Why did you change your attitude towards closed-source miner?
4) Why did you take over the coin and create a second thread when there was one already there?
5) Why did you change the domain name and forked the rep, while keeping the blockchain that you never started?
6) Why do you keep avoiding this very clear questions.

Thank you.

Monero #REKT 

[Macrochip]

Still waiting.....

Still having delivered. Thanks for giving me the opportunity to re-iterate what a shitcoin Failero is.

LOL. Any retard with the tiniest hint of common sense could deduce the Monero cripplemine scam was intentional. Forking a scam and acting surprised when the code is revealed to be a scam. "Oops we scammed the public by accident!"

The FAILERO scam protecting in here is pretty desperate. Deflecting away the accusations by mentioning off topics is clearly a sign of guilt.

Moanero cloned a scam coin (Bytecoin). Why you ask? Because they KNEW, like everyone else, it was a scam
And yet didn't bother to check for scammy code? Is that feigning of ignorance credible? Definitely not.
Why? Because they claim to have so much integrity:

You won't find a more fair launch of any coin no will you find team behind a coin with more integrity than the Monero team in my opinion (though as a minor disclaimer, I don't know all of them outside of our work on Monero -- the work on Monero has been 100% above board and community-focused).

Advertising "fair launch" and yet they pushed a scammy crippleminer onto the public


Only when an outside party noticed the scam that was going on:

My concern with Monero is that optimized miner was always closed-source until a week in production. It happened each time the optimization takes place.

There was no closed source release of anything from the Monero project. It has all been released on github, when practical with accompanying Windows, Mac and Linux binaries. We can't control what everyone else does, but we have certainly encouraged optimized miner developers to share them, in one case offering a bounty (though it turned out not to be necessary as we independently developed comparable optimizations).

As far as I remember, it was me who was asking the questions and finally pushed NoodleDoodle to release the source of the first optimization "round". Where's my bounty then?

NoodleDoodle was not at the time a Monero developer. His first commit to github was the "optimized" (if you want to call it that) miner, which he developed on his own initiative as a individual miner. He was encouraged not only by you, but also by members of the Monero team to open source it, which he did. He has since contributed further optimizations.

As it turns out all these optimizations were really (very likely) un-de-optimizations. If you wanted them released earlier you should get after the bytecoin devs about it. They supposedly had two years to do it.

they bothered to make efforts to fix it.
Monero devs filled their pockets with optimized miners no one else had access to at the time and just when someone else noticed he could fix the scam miner himself they had to come clean. Too bad for him they had already mined unknown millions before anyone found out.

Conclusion from evidence:

SCAM CONFIRMED.

Monero should relaunch because of the cripplemine scam at the beginning.

Monero - Cloning the premined uber-scam "Bytecoin" and avoid scanning the code for fraudulent algorithms
Monero - Insisting on having oh so much integrity yet intentionally shipping a crippled shit-miner to unsuspecting victims/"users"
Monero - Ninjamining an unknown shit-ton of coins within our inner circle through optimized miners while the public gets the crippled one
Monero - The perfect instrument for ninjamining because our CryptoNote-blockchain (aka copycat technology) is opaque
Monero - Projecting our fraud on DASH and yelling "instamine" because no one can see that we are the actual scammers!
Monero - Evan should have chosen CryptoNote for DASH to hide his 5 trillion DASH instamine like we did with our ninjamine!
Monero - Failing to come up with a single innovation of our own and yelling "stop playing the innovation card" when DASH is proven as superior (butthurt)
Monero - Failing to deliver a fucking GUI after 2 years of cleaning up code disguised as "development"
Monero - Cloning a scam, putting lipstick on the pig, hoping no one notices
Monero - Too little, too late
Monero -  

Quoted for massive ownage/exposure of hypocrisy and general REKToning:

I'll just let you guys know that after months and years of bashing DASH because of the instamine Smooth could finally take part in a profitable instamine and is supporting STEEM now. STEEM is a coin that was relaunched after the miners of the developers crashed (they accounted for 80-90% of the total hash) and after the relaunch got 80% of the supply which is locked down in a staking/ponzi/investment scheme. The total market cap 1-2 days ago was several million dollars for this no windows gui and instamined/premined scam that Bittrex added. There were no proper build instructions on launch and the developer has a blogpost aswell on how to get a huge legal stake in your project without doing an ICO (hint: make it impossible for the masses to mine on start). The project had an extremely short 4 week POW, now only every 1 out of 21 blocks are POW blocks. Every speculator who buys on an exchange will get royally fucked since the owners will sell most of their holdings to fund development (and hookers).

Here is smooth starting a witness node: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1410943.msg14644924#msg14644924

You can check his later comments admitting that the project is shady and the launch was scammy, but it doesn't stop him from making money out of it while commenting on its thread and showing support.

Here smooth attacks one of the messengers instead of commenting on the content of the message: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1410943.msg14664635#msg14664635

Seems he lived long enough to become what he hated the most. Oh the irony. I love it.

(Disclaimer: I don't own DASH)

[smooth]

Cryptonight might also fall into the same category, or not, I haven't checked it. If its approach is doing it like scrypt, it might be equally vulnerable.

It is not the same category as scrypt and it is not equally vulnerable (in fact that difference is addressed in the white paper).

[smooth]

Monero has a highly inflationary emission curve where around half the coins were mined in the first year and will have "Roughly 86% mined in 4 years".

By comparison, Bitcoin is almost 7 years old and only has 75% mined. It will take them another 4+ years to get to monero's 86%.

So it will take BTC & LTC ~11+ years to get to ~86% and monero only 4 years. It will take DASH ~ another 20 years to get to 86%.

Are you actually suggesting that in the long-run DASH has a more fair emission rate than BTC, LTC, and XMR?  This is an incredibly disingenuous statement to make because you ignore the fact that masternodes allow the original instaminers to approximately maintain or even increase their share of the total percentage of DASH in existence, year after year.

It also ignores that in the long run Monero's emissions become very flat over time due to the tail reward. Bitcoin will eventually become more front-loaded the Monero, and Dash already is of course. See chart on the first page or two of this thread showing the effect.

You are also correct that paying coins to existing owners is not distribution and should really be factored out of the curve. That applies not only to Dash but various other PoS-ish coins that pay interest, stake-based rewards, etc.