France Is Planning To Prohibit Cash Payments Over €1,000

[ShadowOfHarbringer]

That's why it's important to do research into building efficient and privacy preserving tax systems that can apply to cryptocurrencies (and yes, they exist, Bitcoin is not the end of taxation).

This is such a terrible piece of bullshit.

We do not exist for governments, it's the other way around. Governments exist for us.

We should pay taxes because we want to, not because we are forced to. If we are all forced to pay taxes we don't want to pay, it means that something is seriously wrong with our democracy.

And actually, because what I said is the case in most countries in the world (except for Switzerland and maybe few other countries) , there is something wrong with the whole world actually. So the sooner the world changes to the situation where people WILL WANT TO PAY THE TAXES (because they will know that the money will be well spent), the better.

Do let us know when you catch that unicorn.  

I lol'd.

You give me the choice to not pay taxes and I don't care if the govt is handing out whisky, joints and whores I'm not given 'em any money.

People like you are one of the reasons why taxes (and almost everything coming from government) have to be forced. You should reduce your assholeness level.

You just keep on chasin that unicorn sweetheart. LOL

You sir, are an idiot.
Life is going to constantly kick your butt with this attitude. The funny thing is that you are yet too stupid to realize why are all these things happening to you.

Or perhaps you are just some kid. In that case, i hope that when you grow up, you will start to understand things.

[1714844438]

1714844438

[1714844438]

1714844438

[1714844438]

1714844438

[1714844438]

1714844438

[1714844438]

1714844438

[Richy_T]

Or perhaps you are just some kid. In that case, i hope that when you grow up, you will start to understand things.

I think he understands things pretty well, looks like.

[Timo Y]

I wonder, if other European countries follow suit and keep reducing the limit, what is going to happen to people who are unable to open a bank account (eg. foreign students, day laborers, homeless people, minors, refugees, people who have declared bankruptcy,...) ?

Are they going to be criminals by default? Are they expected to live without using money? That would be appalling.

If the government forces people to use banks then the least it can do is to force banks to open a bank account for anyone who asks.

[Timo Y]

I wonder, if other European countries follow suit and keep reducing the limit, what is going to happen to people who are unable to open a bank account (eg. foreign students, day laborers, homeless people, minors, refugees, people who have declared bankruptcy,...) ?

Fortunatly (or not ?) almost anyone can open a bank account in France even if they have no money. The "Livret A" is free in all "La Poste" offices and now in all banks.

- foreign students : most bank will welcome them..
- day laborers : don't realy exist, and still they can open a "Livret A" at "La Poste"
- homeless people : have a bank account or a "Livret A" on which is deposited a few hundreds euros by month (RMI∕RSA)
- minors : free "Livret A" (may not be able to access the funds without their parents)
- refugees : not sure, but probably same as homeless
- people who have declared bankruptcy : don't really exist, and there is still some hundreds euros per month that cannot be seized from their bank account

That's not the case in Germany anymore since the Postbank was privatized.  There are reports about members of the above groups being refused bank accounts by banks.   I'm not sure what the situation is in Italy and Spain where similar cash bans have been introduced.

[WinVery.com]

Not an advancement of freedom, that's for sure

[dserrano5]

I'm not sure what the situation is in Italy and Spain where similar cash bans have been introduced.

A couple of years ago I tried to open an account at Banco Santander in Spain. They required proof that I had a job. I am fortunate enough to have a job but didn't have a proof with me at that moment so I was unable to open it.

Fsck em.

[hazek]

I wonder, if other European countries follow suit and keep reducing the limit,

They are. Here in Slovenia currently the cash limit is at 10k € and they want to lower it to 3k I believe.

[ancore]

Strangely, I have a feeling this is an extremely bad thing for Bitcoin because one of the major arguments being used is the anonymous nature of cash, and its use in tax evasion, crime and every other bad thing since Moses was a boy!

Or alternatively, everything that makes the usual currencies harder to use is a point in Bitcoin's favor.

It will be interesting to see how this develops!

Indeed.

I think in that case bitcoin will be heavily traded against gold and the like

except of course if holding gold gets banned explicitly, but at that time I think you'd better get a good seat in the people's party

[joecooin]

That's not the case in Germany anymore since the Postbank was privatized.  

To explain this: the Postbank was run by the state's postal service and by law had to provide everybody with a bank account. Then they sold it to the Deutsche Bank without passing on that duty. I love seeing their ads where they explain how seriously they take their "responsibility for society" .

I know of cases where people cannot get a bank account without a job and no job without a bank account. Or no flat. Can be a mean circle if noone let's you break out.

My girlfriend (student) had real problems last year to get an account in England. Great when someone from HSBC explains to you that these are their normal anti money laundering meassures. No comedian could come up with something funny as that.

However, what I really can see in Germany is that the banks are doing everything to make the handling of cash as unconvenient and expensive as possible (our business handles a lot of cash). They close down counters so the queues in front of the rest of the counters get ridiculously long, they make cash deposits really expensive and a pain in the ass to go through (passport showing, forms filling, ...).

There is no limit on person to person cash transactions yet though. Tax evaders from all over the world are known to pay the real estate they buy here in cash so I guess this is politically welcome.

Joe

[Mike Hearn]

I think this issue will come to a head at some point. As far as I can tell the numbers they're picking for these limits come out of thin air, I've never been able to find genuine economic or scientific studies that would recommend certain thresholds.

Many countries have or had laws stating that everyone is entitled to a bank account, however, this has been progressively weakened over time. In Switzerland the last bank that was required to give everyone an account was also the PostFinance bank, but that's changing soon so people who present "reputational impact" can be excluded.

In particular due to FATCA it is looking increasingly likely that at some point, all US taxpayers will be systematically eradicated from the Swiss financial system. It is already happening but the Americans I know have so far been able to find smaller banks or PostFinance accounts that still take them. I have no idea what will happen then because they aren't even allowed to have joint accounts! Married Americans will have to become dependent on their spouses for handouts of cash. It's not going to be very pleasant for them.

People without bank accounts in our society are kind of like the homeless ... all too often governments try to brush them to one side and make them invisible. As it gets harder to use cash and banks start to systematically exclude entire classes of ordinary people, the issue will gain a higher profile.

[hazek]

..the issue will gain a higher profile.

and Bitcoin

[Snowfire]

I can just see trying to push a cashless society on Germany. The Germans like their 'Bargeld' very much, thank you, and many businesses there do not even take credit cards, or take them only over certain fairly high transaction limits. My Visa card was almost useless in Berlin last time I visited; luckily I had a usable ATM  card.

[marcus_of_augustus]

Didn't anybody vote for a party that said it was going to limit cash transactions?

They never make this part of their election manifesto do they? It is always brought in under colour of "protecting them from themselves" type bureaucracy arguments. Has there been any polling to see what the majority of people actually want for cash transactions?

It doesn't seem at all democratic, or good for the economy or helpful for the people at all. It just seems to suit a very narrow agenda of the banks to cut costs ... who are these laws actually benefiting and who the hell wants them except the govt. and the banks?

[tvbcof]

Didn't anybody vote for a party that said it was going to limit cash transactions?

They never make this part of their election manifesto do they? It is always brought in under colour of "protecting them from themselves" type bureaucracy arguments. Has there been any polling to see what the majority of people actually want for cash transactions?

It doesn't seem at all democratic, or good for the economy or helpful for the people at all. It just seems to suit a very narrow agenda of the banks to cut costs ... who are these laws actually benefiting and who the hell wants them except the govt. and the banks?

Lots of people vote for 'security'.  Full control over populations facilitate this.

Don't bore me with the quote about security vs. freedom.  We've all heard it before and most of us here agree with the freedom side of things.  I'm just making a statement about the reality of the situation.

[marcus_of_augustus]

Maybe, but did you ever hear any politician campaign for an election with the argument they were going to lower cash transactions limits for your "security". It is just an idiotic argument that wouldn't wash with the masses. No, they do it in the dark of night and in back rooms with bureaucrats and bankers' technocrats figuring out how they can screw "them" for a few more pennies.

As Mike Hearn is saying, it would be great to see some objective analysis (and transparency) on the economic/financial arguments in a proper cost-benefit on limiting cash transactions. I've never seen any research on this, and they are gutting their own cash economies, for what, a few tax dollars? It's insane, cruel and stupid.

[Mike Christ]

Government: Protecting you from yourself.

[joecooin]

I can just see trying to push a cashless society on Germany.

No, there's better places to do that (Scandinavia for example).

Germany would really be a bad place to go cashless first, most of all because German politicians like to get their bribes in cash notes in black leather briefcases. The guy who is our minister for finances right now for example lied to the parliament a bit more then a decade ago, saying he wouldn't even know a certain arms dealer and lateron it turned out that he had 100k DM black money from that very arms dealer sitting in his desk drawer that very moment. So politicians here don't want cash abolished at all I guess.

What I would expect therefor is actually a change from a _maximum_ to a _minimum_ limit. So you can only do cash transactions from _no less_ then say 100k EUR or 250k or so on, so that ordinary people cannot do any cash transactions anymore but governmental and corporational bodies as well as rich people can still do business as usual.

Would make sense, no?

Joe

[molecular]

I can just see trying to push a cashless society on Germany. The Germans like their 'Bargeld' very much, thank you, and many businesses there do not even take credit cards, or take them only over certain fairly high transaction limits. My Visa card was almost useless in Berlin last time I visited; luckily I had a usable ATM  card.

Don't underestimate the power of the media. They can make cash look like something dirty, something only a homeless person or criminal would use... even in germany.

I'm having trouble deciding wether or not this is good or bad for bitcoin in the long run. On the one hand it's extremely good, because bitcoin offers a way around this prohibition. On the other hand, should cash be banned or made to be perceived as being "the way to pay for bad people", it'd be way too easy for "the law" to just put bitcoin right into that cash category and make bitcoin payments (above a certain amount) illegal. Providers could be pressured to filter bitcoin traffic. Of course there's ways around that, but the effect this would have on public perception would be huge. Add the media spreading fear, uncertainty and doubt and quickly bitcoins image could be back to where it was in 2011 ("that criminal internet hacker money laundering drug dealer currency") or worse... Not so good, I guess.

[tvbcof]

I can just see trying to push a cashless society on Germany. The Germans like their 'Bargeld' very much, thank you, and many businesses there do not even take credit cards, or take them only over certain fairly high transaction limits. My Visa card was almost useless in Berlin last time I visited; luckily I had a usable ATM  card.

Don't underestimate the power of the media. They can make cash look like something dirty, something only a homeless person or criminal would use... even in germany.

I'm having trouble deciding wether or not this is good or bad for bitcoin in the long run. On the one hand it's extremely good, because bitcoin offers a way around this prohibition. On the other hand, should cash be banned or made to be perceived as being "the way to pay for bad people", it'd be way too easy for "the law" to just put bitcoin right into that cash category and make bitcoin payments (above a certain amount) illegal. Providers could be pressured to filter bitcoin traffic. Of course there's ways around that, but the effect this would have on public perception would be huge. Add the media spreading fear, uncertainty and doubt and quickly bitcoins image could be back to where it was in 2011 ("that criminal internet hacker money laundering drug dealer currency") or worse... Not so good, I guess.

I agree.

In my time in the real world, I find that most people innately sense a degree of subversiveness about Bitcoin.  Even possessing a non-trivial amount of cash is looked upon as a little bit weird.  A little positive reinforcement of that sense through the media could go a long ways.

In a semi-democracy like ours in the US, old people and the upper middle class are the ones with the highest leverage (voting wise).  Both groups are strongly attached to the status quo and have no interest in rocking the boat.  Our society is working quite well for them as it is, thank you very much.  They may have empathy for others, but they also have fear of them which could be put to good use.

Poor people are the ones who use cash the most.  They can be pacified by issuing them EBT cards which are expanded to gift them some extra spending power for other shiny trinkets.

In the end I actually don't think it would be all that difficult to get rid of cash, or at least make it so onerous to use it legally that it would be mostly a relic in 'modern' countries.  And it would be much easier to do so for Bitcoin.

edit: add missing word