France Is Planning To Prohibit Cash Payments Over €1,000

[Richy_T]

Because bitcoins act sorta like cash, is it illegal to make a bitcoin transaction over the threshold as well?

How do they possibly think they will be able to police this? Cash transactions are untraceable, how is making a law going to make them any more traceable?

Newsflash: Lawbreakers break laws.

You're correct. This is inane.

When I first read your reply I thought you said "Lawmakers break laws." How are all the lawmakers going to get their bribes if cash is outlawed?

Expensive meals, private jets, all-inclusive holidays in the med... The usual stuff.

[molecular]

This is not about taxes. This is about taking our freedom of economic transaction.

reminds me of a TED talk about "System D":

Robert Neuwirth: The power of the informal economy

[nwbitcoin]

Reading the posts on this thread makes me believe that there are a lot of people with very little idea of how France and the EU actually work.

France loves coming up with new laws - its what they do.  What they also do is ignore the laws they don't like.  When this happens, the French law makers will adapt the law people don't like so that there is no penalty if the law is broken.  It keep everyone happy! Italy is similar, and Greece and the law are rarely in the same room!

Secondly, the EU are determined to get rid of cash in the next 10-20 years.  In the UK the maximum amount of cash you can trade with has been steadily dropping to ensure that cash based businesses find alternatives.

A few years ago, you couldn't spend more than £10k in cash, without a letter from the bank to say the cash was legal.  Now its £5k, and it will drop to £1 eventually.  The first to suffer were builders and car traders who used cash a lot.  They adapted.  By today, there are loads of businesses which are practically banned from using cash without a lot of paperwork being filled it.  For instance, try selling a ton of metal to a scrap dealer and getting cash - its not going to happen!

Strangely, I have a feeling this is an extremely bad thing for Bitcoin because one of the major arguments being used is the anonymous nature of cash, and its use in tax evasion, crime and every other bad thing since Moses was a boy!

It will be interesting to see how this develops!

[Richy_T]

Strangely, I have a feeling this is an extremely bad thing for Bitcoin because one of the major arguments being used is the anonymous nature of cash, and its use in tax evasion, crime and every other bad thing since Moses was a boy!

Or alternatively, everything that makes the usual currencies harder to use is a point in Bitcoin's favor.

It will be interesting to see how this develops!

Indeed.

[Mike Hearn]

People won't use Bitcoin for transactions if they feel it'd be illegal to use cash for those transactions, simple as that. So yes it is a big problem.

Over time the only way to roll those laws back is democratic pressure. Right now there isn't much pushback against these laws because

1. it's being done slowly, frog boiler-style
2. cash is annoying, insecure, bulky, expensive to deal with etc so the argument that only tax evaders actually want to use it is a pretty strong one

Bitcoin has the potential to change this equation quite significantly by giving people the advantages of cash (irreversible, no payment fraud, fast, good privacy) combined with the advantages of bank transfers (cheap, online, works over wires, can be secure).

At that point the argument that only bad people want to use it will go away and it will become a bigger political issue. Assuming Bitcoin actually survives and grows in such an incredibly hostile environment, of course.

Now just because We The People might want to use coins for everything, doesn't mean lawmakers will actually let us .... governments aren't going to allow something that looks like it might significantly undermine tax collection, end of story. That's why it's important to do research into building efficient and privacy preserving tax systems that can apply to cryptocurrencies (and yes, they exist, Bitcoin is not the end of taxation).

[Herodes]

2. cash is annoying, insecure, bulky, expensive to deal with etc so the argument that only tax evaders actually want to use it is a pretty strong one

There are many uses for cash and it has its place. Do you think tax evaders will vanish if cash is gone ? There are other means. Those who want to find a way, finds a way.

[Mike Hearn]

Of course. Nobody is making the argument that ALL tax evasion is based on cash transactions. Just that the audit trails that banks leave behind make it a lot easier to catch people who are engaging in it.

[marcus_of_augustus]

That's why it's important to do research into building efficient and privacy preserving tax systems that can apply to cryptocurrencies (and yes, they exist, Bitcoin is not the end of taxation).

Sounds like you'll keep yourself busy making sure everybody is paying their taxes ... you better go get started on that right now, maybe on Google's time?

[ShadowOfHarbringer]

That's why it's important to do research into building efficient and privacy preserving tax systems that can apply to cryptocurrencies (and yes, they exist, Bitcoin is not the end of taxation).

This is such a terrible piece of bullshit.

We do not exist for governments, it's the other way around. Governments exist for us.

We should pay taxes because we want to, not because we are forced to. If we are all forced to pay taxes we don't want to pay, it means that something is seriously wrong with our democracy.

And actually, because what I said is the case in most countries in the world (except for Switzerland and maybe few other countries) , there is something wrong with the whole world actually. So the sooner the world changes to the situation where people WILL WANT TO PAY THE TAXES (because they will know that the money will be well spent), the better.

[hazek]

That's why it's important to do research into building efficient and privacy preserving tax systems that can apply to cryptocurrencies (and yes, they exist, Bitcoin is not the end of taxation).

This is such a terrible piece of bullshit.

We do not exist for governments, it's the other way around. Governments exist for us.

We should pay taxes because we want to, not because we are forced to. If we are all forced to pay taxes we don't want to pay, it means that something is seriously wrong with our democracy.

And actually, because what I said is the case in most countries in the world (except for Switzerland and maybe few other countries) , there is something wrong with the whole world actually. So the sooner the world changes to the situation where people WILL WANT TO PAY THE TAXES (because they will know that the money will be well spent), the better.

Do let us know when you catch that unicorn.  

[Richy_T]

People won't use Bitcoin for transactions if they feel it'd be illegal to use cash for those transactions, simple as that. So yes it is a big problem.

But if they want to use cash for a transaction but using one of the usual suspects is risky/difficult, there is an alternative.

[darkmule]

People won't use Bitcoin for transactions if they feel it'd be illegal to use cash for those transactions, simple as that.

This explains why nobody uses SilkRoad, because it would be illegal to use cash for the same purposes.

[ShadowOfHarbringer]

That's why it's important to do research into building efficient and privacy preserving tax systems that can apply to cryptocurrencies (and yes, they exist, Bitcoin is not the end of taxation).

This is such a terrible piece of bullshit.

We do not exist for governments, it's the other way around. Governments exist for us.

We should pay taxes because we want to, not because we are forced to. If we are all forced to pay taxes we don't want to pay, it means that something is seriously wrong with our democracy.

And actually, because what I said is the case in most countries in the world (except for Switzerland and maybe few other countries) , there is something wrong with the whole world actually. So the sooner the world changes to the situation where people WILL WANT TO PAY THE TAXES (because they will know that the money will be well spent), the better.

Do let us know when you catch that unicorn.  

I want to be happy with ruling of my government, is that really so much to ask ? I f I am happy, I want to pay taxes, because government  doing a good job means we need more of that good job. If government is doing a bad job, we need less of it -> so less taxes from me.

Perhaps we should redesign the version of democracy we are currently using, because it clearly sucks goat balls.

[molecular]

Perhaps we should redesign the version of democracy we are currently using, because it clearly sucks goat balls.

+1

[QuestionAuthority]

That's why it's important to do research into building efficient and privacy preserving tax systems that can apply to cryptocurrencies (and yes, they exist, Bitcoin is not the end of taxation).

This is such a terrible piece of bullshit.

We do not exist for governments, it's the other way around. Governments exist for us.

We should pay taxes because we want to, not because we are forced to. If we are all forced to pay taxes we don't want to pay, it means that something is seriously wrong with our democracy.

And actually, because what I said is the case in most countries in the world (except for Switzerland and maybe few other countries) , there is something wrong with the whole world actually. So the sooner the world changes to the situation where people WILL WANT TO PAY THE TAXES (because they will know that the money will be well spent), the better.

Do let us know when you catch that unicorn.  

I lol'd.

You give me the choice to not pay taxes and I don't care if the govt is handing out whisky, joints and whores I'm not given 'em any money.

[ShadowOfHarbringer]

That's why it's important to do research into building efficient and privacy preserving tax systems that can apply to cryptocurrencies (and yes, they exist, Bitcoin is not the end of taxation).

This is such a terrible piece of bullshit.

We do not exist for governments, it's the other way around. Governments exist for us.

We should pay taxes because we want to, not because we are forced to. If we are all forced to pay taxes we don't want to pay, it means that something is seriously wrong with our democracy.

And actually, because what I said is the case in most countries in the world (except for Switzerland and maybe few other countries) , there is something wrong with the whole world actually. So the sooner the world changes to the situation where people WILL WANT TO PAY THE TAXES (because they will know that the money will be well spent), the better.

Do let us know when you catch that unicorn.  

I lol'd.

You give me the choice to not pay taxes and I don't care if the govt is handing out whisky, joints and whores I'm not given 'em any money.

People like you are one of the reasons why taxes (and almost everything coming from government) have to be forced. You should reduce your assholeness level.

[QuestionAuthority]

That's why it's important to do research into building efficient and privacy preserving tax systems that can apply to cryptocurrencies (and yes, they exist, Bitcoin is not the end of taxation).

This is such a terrible piece of bullshit.

We do not exist for governments, it's the other way around. Governments exist for us.

We should pay taxes because we want to, not because we are forced to. If we are all forced to pay taxes we don't want to pay, it means that something is seriously wrong with our democracy.

And actually, because what I said is the case in most countries in the world (except for Switzerland and maybe few other countries) , there is something wrong with the whole world actually. So the sooner the world changes to the situation where people WILL WANT TO PAY THE TAXES (because they will know that the money will be well spent), the better.

Do let us know when you catch that unicorn.  

I lol'd.

You give me the choice to not pay taxes and I don't care if the govt is handing out whisky, joints and whores I'm not given 'em any money.

People like you are one of the reasons why taxes (and almost everything coming from government) have to be forced. You should reduce your assholeness level.

You just keep on chasin that unicorn sweetheart. LOL

[molecular]

That's why it's important to do research into building efficient and privacy preserving tax systems that can apply to cryptocurrencies (and yes, they exist, Bitcoin is not the end of taxation).

This is such a terrible piece of bullshit.

We do not exist for governments, it's the other way around. Governments exist for us.

We should pay taxes because we want to, not because we are forced to. If we are all forced to pay taxes we don't want to pay, it means that something is seriously wrong with our democracy.

And actually, because what I said is the case in most countries in the world (except for Switzerland and maybe few other countries) , there is something wrong with the whole world actually. So the sooner the world changes to the situation where people WILL WANT TO PAY THE TAXES (because they will know that the money will be well spent), the better.

Do let us know when you catch that unicorn.  

I lol'd.

You give me the choice to not pay taxes and I don't care if the govt is handing out whisky, joints and whores I'm not given 'em any money.

People like you are one of the reasons why taxes (and almost everything coming from government) have to be forced. You should reduce your assholeness level.

You just keep on chasin that unicorn sweetheart. LOL

This kind of an attitude sickens me.

[QuestionAuthority]

That's why it's important to do research into building efficient and privacy preserving tax systems that can apply to cryptocurrencies (and yes, they exist, Bitcoin is not the end of taxation).

This is such a terrible piece of bullshit.

We do not exist for governments, it's the other way around. Governments exist for us.

We should pay taxes because we want to, not because we are forced to. If we are all forced to pay taxes we don't want to pay, it means that something is seriously wrong with our democracy.

And actually, because what I said is the case in most countries in the world (except for Switzerland and maybe few other countries) , there is something wrong with the whole world actually. So the sooner the world changes to the situation where people WILL WANT TO PAY THE TAXES (because they will know that the money will be well spent), the better.

Do let us know when you catch that unicorn.  

I lol'd.

You give me the choice to not pay taxes and I don't care if the govt is handing out whisky, joints and whores I'm not given 'em any money.

People like you are one of the reasons why taxes (and almost everything coming from government) have to be forced. You should reduce your assholeness level.

You just keep on chasin that unicorn sweetheart. LOL

This kind of an attitude sickens me.

I agree!

Hazek, you should be ashamed of yourself! 

[tvbcof]

...
Now just because We The People might want to use coins for everything, doesn't mean lawmakers will actually let us .... governments aren't going to allow something that looks like it might significantly undermine tax collection, end of story. That's why it's important to do research into building efficient and privacy preserving tax systems that can apply to cryptocurrencies (and yes, they exist, Bitcoin is not the end of taxation).

Crypto-currencies of the Bitcoin variety actually have a potential for pretty convenient tax collection.

In one conception of crypto-currencies, I sort of envision 'competitive management' which includes taxation among other things (such as inflation, issuance, etc.)  In this form almost any entity who wished could issue a currency.  Say the state, county, city, and any private organization who wished to.

Those entities who managed their currency well would have a strong currency and those who didn't, a weak one.  Most people would hold a variety of the currencies they used most often.  Even at scale exchanges should be able to operate profitably on a pretty tiny cut so I don't see a problem converting between them when necessary.