Provably fair dice - real or bulshit ?

[Curious8]

Sites like rollin, Primedice that write ''provably fair'' really fair ? if it does equal how they make their millions from minor houese edge ?
Maybe it's not fair at all and they manipulate the system to steal our money ?

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[RHavar]

What "fair" refers to, is that you when you win you actually win, and they don't tamper with the odds. Not that they have "fair odds". That's why if you bet at 2x, you have a 49.5% chance of winning, not a 50% chance. That's how they make their money.

[bitbaby]

Provably fair is only there to check that the result of the roll wasn't tampered with in any way, you can use third party verifiers(mentioned below) to check your rolls and to learn more about how the provably fair works. As far as their making money is concerned, it is the universal truth that in the end the house always wins.

Have a look here:
https://dicesites.com/provably-fair

[Godson_Mansa]

lol i keep seeing that thing what does it even mean ?

[stiffbud]

Provability means that yes there is a chance that you will win or not. Technically, yes it can work but at some cases it will only be profitable if you know how to play it. By know how to play it, I mean know when to stop when you see that you are already loosing because the house will always win.

[shintosai]

Provability means that yes there is a chance that you will win or not. Technically, yes it can work but at some cases it will only be profitable if you know how to play it. By know how to play it, I mean know when to stop when you see that you are already loosing because the house will always win.

well indeed house always win, greediness let us forget that winning is not part of the strategy anymore, when you keep winning you did not want to stop playing when you play house keep getting the house fee and you see that's it will be fair or your bet saying that you are possibly win or lose the amount of your bet. that's the purpose of that but no guarantee that you will win.

[emberbekas]

Provably Fair means that they can give us a proof that they are fair. That means they maybe unfair but they have a proof that they are fair. But since there is no independent organization that oversees "provably fair" I think provably fair itself is a bulshit.

[Trade_BTC]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Provably_fair

[RHavar]

Provably Fair means that they can give us a proof that they are fair. That means they maybe unfair but they have a proof that they are fair. But since there is no independent organization that oversees "provably fair" I think provably fair itself is a bulshit.

It doesn't work like that, I am independent and can (and have) looked at PrimeDice's provably fair system for instance. I am quite satisfied it is robust, and I have verified several games that I played there. However, the provably fair only proves the games that I verified were fair, not every single game. There's no feasible way for an independent organization to verify a site, and even if there was -- it would require people to trust the independent organization. Which is worse than what we have now, not having to trust anyone.


Anyway, as someone who runs what is probably the #2nd biggest bitcoin casino by volume, I'll let you in on a secret. Casino's don't need to, and aren't particularly interested in cheating. Even if I could undetectable cheat, and had zero morals, I actually doubt cheating would make me any more money. Why? Because cheating would decrease the variance for players (the number #1 attractant to casinos), decrease the great success stories that bring in players, and most importantly most players are loss bound, it's just a question of how much volume they turn over before they eventually lose it =)

[EdenHazard]

Provably Fair means that they can give us a proof that they are fair. That means they maybe unfair but they have a proof that they are fair. But since there is no independent organization that oversees "provably fair" I think provably fair itself is a bulshit.

if someone who did not know what provably fair exactly and how to verify it in clear way like us i think yeah provably fair is bullshit label , it is like we forced to admit it is 100% provably fair.

i know there is a way to verify it manually by user by matching the client seed and server seed but what actually that mean? we can always feel the bookies can change it anytime so dumb i am .

[NLNico]

But since there is no independent organization that oversees "provably fair" I think provably fair itself is a bulshit.

Well there are 2 things to consider here.



1. Implementation
First of all, most sites use (slightly) different implementations. IMO the "nonce method" is pretty much the best way, generally if the site uses this (like most popular dice sites), you can assume it's okay (especially for a dice site where you can bet both hi/lo.) Obviously ideally you would still check if they are doing everything technically correct, but this takes some knowledge.

Some implementations do different things, and might be not so good. If you don't have the technical knowledge to check this, luckily there are other individuals that do frequently check sites. For example, Rollin actually didn't have a perfect implementation that potentially could allow them cheating and they adjusted/improved it quickly after I posted about it: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=687571.msg12122724#msg12122724 Another example, keepinquiet found out that PocketDice doesn't have a perfect implementation either that potentially could allow them cheating: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1077905.0 Unfortunately they still didn't improved this AFAIK (so IMO best to not play there :X)

So there is no 1 organization checking it, but there are several individuals checking it (mostly dooglus, RHavar, keepinquiet and me I think - but everyone with some technical knowledge can do this.) I personally do plan to test all popular websites and compare all of the implementations in a proper/fair way (so not like those bullshit "review" sites.) But it takes some time to do this hehe.



2. Actually verifying your bets
If we assume the implementation is good. Still you have to verify your bet results to ensure you have not been cheated. It's good to learn the basics of how provably fair works here: https://dicesites.com/provably-fair but even just using 1 of the verifiers on that page should be fine too. Provably fair is definitely not bullshit if you take a few minutes to verify your bet results.

[Xenophoto]

Of course they can't give you 50% for 2x. They will lessen the percentage because that's how they earn money out of there website.

I'm pretty sure the admins/staffs of a gambling website will not look in front of their screen just to manipulate their system and stop people from winning. If they are manipulating it, then how come there are some lucky people going off-desk with a lot of profit. It's all about luck, bro. If you think those dice sites are not fair at all, try BustaBit. Just a change for the type of game and it's provably fair too (according to admins/staffs at least).

[mobnepal]

Provably fair doesn't mean always winning for players. Its the proof that site doesn't manipulate result according to your betting amount. If game is provable fair than your winning or loss depends upon your luck. This type of statement comes when someone loss huge in this dice sites LOL

[Indrawan77]

I think is real, provably fair means that they dont change anything after its being randomize, if a site dare to prove their provably fair its mean your winning just depends on your luck

[WEBcreator]

I think is real, provably fair means that they dont change anything after its being randomize, if a site dare to prove their provably fair its mean your winning just depends on your luck

They could still change everything to make sure that you will lose. The only way to make sure everything is fair is to write down or copy the randomized seed and verify it after you play the game therefore if the house decided to cheat then you will know it instantly. Without verifying it, provably fair is useless

[LiQuidx]

As NLNico said, if the provably fair scheme holds then obviously you can be assured that the casino is fair by verifying all your rolls at will.  You have to make sure that that's the case though first since a "weak" scheme could be potentially manipulated.

[goldcoinminer]

It's real OP but as we know the house always has the advantage so we cannot really win in the long run. It only becomes bullshit if the dice operator will try to scam us but I think there are a lot of programming experts here who can make an audit of its reliability.

[bitraine]

yay this come to my mind back when i was new in gambling i always though that probably fair is a tactic use by most dice site to get more users, but realize i was wrong , knowing provably fair describes an algorithm which can be analyzed and verified : )

You  could use a online tool to verify and  calculate the fainess of the roll

[JackpotRacer]

Provably Fair means that they can give us a proof that they are fair. That means they maybe unfair but they have a proof that they are fair. But since there is no independent organization that oversees "provably fair" I think provably fair itself is a bulshit.

It doesn't work like that, I am independent and can (and have) looked at PrimeDice's provably fair system for instance. I am quite satisfied it is robust, and I have verified several games that I played there. However, the provably fair only proves the games that I verified were fair, not every single game. .....................

hi

all the games/bets a player will verify are provably fair and the ones he does not could be still not provably fair? thats what you are saying? thx

[Shibashi Dogemoto]

I'm not a big gambler myself, but my understanding of provably fair is as follows:

- provably fair is proving that the outcome of a roll wasn't changed after you placed your bets. The outcome was pre-calculated and it didn't matter if you have bet a little or a lot.

If i'm not mistaking, this has nothing to do with the house edge... A casino might still claim there is a 1% house edge, but in reality have a 2% edge (a 1% edge by low = 49,5 and hi = 50,5 PLUS a 1% edge by "cheating" with the random number that's generated... ).

So, if my understanding of this is correct, provably fair is OK, but not foolproof.