Provably fair dice - real or bulshit ?

[bandung01]

yes in a dice game was very fair in real life 

[adibe]

Sites like rollin, Primedice that write ''provably fair'' really fair ? if it does equal how they make their millions from minor houese edge ?
Maybe it's not fair at all and they manipulate the system to steal our money ?

For my opinion, provably fair on dice sites is completely not fair. The system is always make you lose if you play for long run on dice. That's why i never play dice for long run.

[DarkStar_]

Sites like rollin, Primedice that write ''provably fair'' really fair ? if it does equal how they make their millions from minor houese edge ?
Maybe it's not fair at all and they manipulate the system to steal our money ?

For my opinion, provably fair on dice sites is completely not fair. The system is always make you lose if you play for long run on dice. That's why i never play dice for long run.

Your not getting the point. Yes, the system makes you lose in the long run, because there is a house edge. There has to be, since it is Player vs House. If there was a negative house edge or 0 house edge, it would be very risky for the site owners. The point of provably fair is to prove that roll X is fair, and that they didn't rig the outcome, not that you are expected to get a profit. Provably fair on dice sites is completely fair (except for pocketdice, but it isn't a dice site like PD), and it is the house edge that makes things "unfair" for the player.

[horace08122]

Sites like rollin, Primedice that write ''provably fair'' really fair ? if it does equal how they make their millions from minor houese edge ?
Maybe it's not fair at all and they manipulate the system to steal our money ?

For my opinion, provably fair on dice sites is completely not fair. The system is always make you lose if you play for long run on dice. That's why i never play dice for long run.

Your not getting the point. Yes, the system makes you lose in the long run, because there is a house edge. There has to be, since it is Player vs House. If there was a negative house edge or 0 house edge, it would be very risky for the site owners. The point of provably fair is to prove that roll X is fair, and that they didn't rig the outcome, not that you are expected to get a profit. Provably fair on dice sites is completely fair (except for pocketdice, but it isn't a dice site like PD), and it is the house edge that makes things "unfair" for the player.

I can see why some people will come up with this in their mind,
as mostly you will win if you bet on small amount, but once you stack increased,
you will just lost it.

So people may thing the Provably fair is sth bulshit

[fullypak]

Sites like rollin, Primedice that write ''provably fair'' really fair ? if it does equal how they make their millions from minor houese edge ?
Maybe it's not fair at all and they manipulate the system to steal our money ?

For my opinion, provably fair on dice sites is completely not fair. The system is always make you lose if you play for long run on dice. That's why i never play dice for long run.

Your not getting the point. Yes, the system makes you lose in the long run, because there is a house edge. There has to be, since it is Player vs House. If there was a negative house edge or 0 house edge, it would be very risky for the site owners. The point of provably fair is to prove that roll X is fair, and that they didn't rig the outcome, not that you are expected to get a profit. Provably fair on dice sites is completely fair (except for pocketdice, but it isn't a dice site like PD), and it is the house edge that makes things "unfair" for the player.

I can see why some people will come up with this in their mind,
as mostly you will win if you bet on small amount, but once you stack increased,
you will just lost it.

So people may thing the Provably fair is sth bulshit

At some extent, I do agree on your point that when we bet bigger amount than more chances of losing compared to betting less. Few times I felt it but can't prove it. So I never play dice for making profits but just for fun sometimes only I go for dice.

[LegitPoker]

ive always questioned it because i never understood how it works. id rather stick with betting on outcomes i know are 100% legit.

[goldcoinminer]

ive always questioned it because i never understood how it works. id rather stick with betting on outcomes i know are 100% legit.

Good, if you don't understand the rules then better not bet with it, actually Provably fair dice is real but because of the advantage of the house we still lose in the long run. That is easy to understand and we should accept that as we have no future doing dice if we aim for money or profit.

[electronicfactura]

First of we need to understand what does mean of provably fair system.It means all bets what you placed can be verified by this well known system or standard set for online gambling casinos.I have no doubt about the fairness of these sites what OP mentioned as far as it is talk about provably fair implementation.

[bithasher]

There is big difference between provably fair and house edge.Actually it is house edge that leads to many people towards loss as it is almost impossible to beat house.Whenever someone loose then first thought appears in mind is site is not fair.You need to be fully aware of the things in which you put hands.This is single advice for you.

[newcripto]

Provably fair dice sites means for me I can play on them with full confidence that if somewhere I am not agree can verify my bet.There is a complete system which is recognized by most testers as standard.House edge is the real problem not this standard.You can never win against house if you keep playing continuously.Short term is your time where as long term is house winner.

[clixcoin]

I also think it is very important to learn how provably fair system work and on other side the house edge how generate profit for owners, now a days so many 3rd party verifier app available to check the bet status if out come is same than no need to be worry about it.

[bittrojan]

Sites like rollin, Primedice that write ''provably fair'' really fair ? if it does equal how they make their millions from minor houese edge ?
Maybe it's not fair at all and they manipulate the system to steal our money ?

i will said yes,its totally bullshit,people will not get any effect from provably fair,we still can't see dice site not give us chance to won,and some bets are not make sense,this cause people leave dice game,and prefer to sports betting.

[adaseb]

From what I understood its fair only if you reset your client seed after every roll. There were some conspiracies where the webmaster can hash a specific seed knowing your client seed is static and generate a loss in your favor, but it was never proven.

[seuntjie]

From what I understood its fair only if you reset your client seed after every roll. There were some conspiracies where the webmaster can hash a specific seed knowing your client seed is static and generate a loss in your favor, but it was never proven.

This only works on certain kinds of implementations. A nonce based implementation (just dice, primedice, betking etc), where you have 1 server seed and 1 client seed and a incrementing number, you can make millions of bets before setting a new client seed and still verify all of your bets without the server being able to change the outcome of any of those bets.

Implementations that use a server seed and client seed (fortunejack, rollin, moneypot etc) can theoretically "cheat" you if you play in a predictable manner. For example always use the same client seed and always bet high, the server can pick seeds that are biased towards another direction. Picking a random client seed for every bet prevents this.

[adaseb]

From what I understood its fair only if you reset your client seed after every roll. There were some conspiracies where the webmaster can hash a specific seed knowing your client seed is static and generate a loss in your favor, but it was never proven.

This only works on certain kinds of implementations. A nonce based implementation (just dice, primedice, betking etc), where you have 1 server seed and 1 client seed and a incrementing number, you can make millions of bets before setting a new client seed and still verify all of your bets without the server being able to change the outcome of any of those bets.

Implementations that use a server seed and client seed (fortunejack, rollin, moneypot etc) can theoretically "cheat" you if you play in a predictable manner. For example always use the same client seed and always bet high, the server can pick seeds that are biased towards another direction. Picking a random client seed for every bet prevents this.

I understand what you are getting at, but why does "always bet high" make a difference in the outcome? I assumed the bet amount has nothing to do with the seed hash.

[goldcoinminer]

From what I understood its fair only if you reset your client seed after every roll. There were some conspiracies where the webmaster can hash a specific seed knowing your client seed is static and generate a loss in your favor, but it was never proven.

If this dice are proven bullshit then you would not seen it operating anymore and attracting more bettors to risk huge amount of money. This is just a simple analysis that we should not overthink, why is primedice making more money if people don't trust dice games.

[seuntjie]

From what I understood its fair only if you reset your client seed after every roll. There were some conspiracies where the webmaster can hash a specific seed knowing your client seed is static and generate a loss in your favor, but it was never proven.

This only works on certain kinds of implementations. A nonce based implementation (just dice, primedice, betking etc), where you have 1 server seed and 1 client seed and a incrementing number, you can make millions of bets before setting a new client seed and still verify all of your bets without the server being able to change the outcome of any of those bets.

Implementations that use a server seed and client seed (fortunejack, rollin, moneypot etc) can theoretically "cheat" you if you play in a predictable manner. For example always use the same client seed and always bet high, the server can pick seeds that are biased towards another direction. Picking a random client seed for every bet prevents this.

I understand what you are getting at, but why does "always bet high" make a difference in the outcome? I assumed the bet amount has nothing to do with the seed hash.

This is kind of where provably fair gets tricky.

The server cannot produce a hash without having picked a server seed. So here's the situation. If you bet predictably as I defined it above, the server can go:
The last 10 bets has been with client seed: 12345abcd
the last 10 bets has been: low
the last 10 bets has been at chance: 49.5%

it's "safe" to assume the next bet will meet these requirements.

1. Pick server seed.
2. Calculate lucky number for server seed using client seed above.
3. is lucky number>49.5
       yes -> return hash of server seed
       no -> restart from 1.
4. wait for next bet

This anticipates that your next bet will be low at 49.5% chance to win using client seed 12345abcd. If any of these things change, the system fails.
so the hash you see is legitimate, they didn't change anything after you placed to bet to make you lose based on the amount you bet, and you can prove it. BUT they did pick a -probable- result (probable because you're playing predictably) that was biased in a direction.

The same concept can be applied to sites that generate you client seed server side (that kind or ignores the whole concept of a CLIENT seed, doesn't it?) but with one less variable.

the last 10 bets has been: low
the last 10 bets has been at chance: 49.5%

it's "safe" to assume the next bet will meet these requirements.

1. pick server seed.
2. pick client seed (1 and 2 is interchangeable)
3. Calculate lucky number for server seed using client seed above.
4.. is lucky number>49.5
       yes -> return hash of server seed and client seed
       no -> restart from 2.
4. wait for bet


Of course, this isn't guaranteed to make the site win. If you change from high to low on a whim, you'd win instead of lose.


This approach isn't feasible for any site the uses the nonce based RNG for a few reasons.
1. It takes a LOT more resources (time especially). Causes more suspicion from users when randomizing seed.
2.1 The randomness of the numbers are very good.
2.2 The site has no idea how many rolls you're going to make on the seed. These two points mean that the site might make a seed biased towards low for the first 100 bets (making you lose more than you win) BUT because of the randomness is more biased towards high for the next 1 million rolls, making you win more. This all assumes you use the same client seed between server seeds and play predictably, as defined above.


So my personal tips: Nonce based provably fair: do whatever the fuck you want, just verify your bets after you reset the seed and look for nonce skipping.
single use client+server seed: generate your own random client seed for every bet.


It would be interesting to get a data dump from a few sites like rollin and moneypot and see how many users this could affect and how much of an edge the house could gain by doing this, I personally think not very much.


To Be clear, I'm not accusing any of the above mentioned sites of doing this, I'm merely using examples of where it would be possible to demonstrate why I personally prefer the nonce based RNG systems.

[Jemzx00]

Sites like rollin, Primedice that write ''provably fair'' really fair ? if it does equal how they make their millions from minor houese edge ?
Maybe it's not fair at all and they manipulate the system to steal our money ?

Actually, yes those sites are probably fair base on their odds. And if you're talking about primedice then you can check those times when it almost got bankrupt and try to search someone named Hufflepuff.

[NeilLostBitCoin]

I really don't know but I bet once 0.01 at 1.01 payout, that is 98% chance. And I lose, but of course I made it back after I bet again.

[SoulReaper69]

But since there is no independent organization that oversees "provably fair" I think provably fair itself is a bulshit.

Well there are 2 things to consider here.



1. Implementation
First of all, most sites use (slightly) different implementations. IMO the "nonce method" is pretty much the best way, generally if the site uses this (like most popular dice sites), you can assume it's okay (especially for a dice site where you can bet both hi/lo.) Obviously ideally you would still check if they are doing everything technically correct, but this takes some knowledge.

Some implementations do different things, and might be not so good. If you don't have the technical knowledge to check this, luckily there are other individuals that do frequently check sites. For example, Rollin actually didn't have a perfect implementation that potentially could allow them cheating and they adjusted/improved it quickly after I posted about it: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=687571.msg12122724#msg12122724 Another example, keepinquiet found out that PocketDice doesn't have a perfect implementation either that potentially could allow them cheating: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1077905.0 Unfortunately they still didn't improved this AFAIK (so IMO best to not play there :X)

So there is no 1 organization checking it, but there are several individuals checking it (mostly dooglus, RHavar, keepinquiet and me I think - but everyone with some technical knowledge can do this.) I personally do plan to test all popular websites and compare all of the implementations in a proper/fair way (so not like those bullshit "review" sites.) But it takes some time to do this hehe.



2. Actually verifying your bets
If we assume the implementation is good. Still you have to verify your bet results to ensure you have not been cheated. It's good to learn the basics of how provably fair works here: https://dicesites.com/provably-fair but even just using 1 of the verifiers on that page should be fine too. Provably fair is definitely not bullshit if you take a few minutes to verify your bet results.

was wondering if you have ever verified the Rambo Dice game on FaucetHub. If not is there anyway you or maybe somebody you know could look into ive verified the rolls that i get there but when i use SHA-256 to verify the hashed client seed its always different from what FaucetHub said was the hashed client side i mentioned this to one of the mods there and he said i must be mistaken. I appreciate your time just reading this message and if by chance you could send a reply as far as my concern that would be truly wonderful i dont want to keep putting money into something if its not fair at least.