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Author Topic: Wouldn't it be more fair if the bitcoins were shared equally?  (Read 23326 times)
JoelKatz
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March 21, 2013, 01:17:13 PM
Last edit: March 21, 2013, 01:34:58 PM by JoelKatz
 #221

His point was blockchain technology is expensive (in terms of never ending storage requirements, massive computing power, and eternal risk of 51% attack).  This isn't to say Bitcoin is "bad" but there is a cost.  The cost is the price for decentralization.
Precisely. Bitcoin's entire design is based around the requirement that no central authority be needed. Pretty much everything else in the design exists solely to make that core requirement have as little downside as possible. If you don't see not having a central authority as a huge advantage, all those sacrifices are for nothing.

It would be like pushing around a car instead of riding a bike. If being capable of powered movement is not an advantage in your application, you *don't* want to use a car to get around because its whole design is based around that. But if powered movement is a big plus, then a car is *way* better than a bike. For an unpowered means of transportation, don't take a car and rip out the engine. Build a bike.

That said, there are some ideas from Bitcoin you could take for a centralized currency if they fit the rest of your design. For example, the way Bitcoin addresses are formed. The way transactions are formed and signed. The structure of a wallet. The way outputs are pulled in instead of having an account balance. The use of hash chains to permit a large amount of data, with history going back indefinitely, to be secured by securing a small chunk of data. And so on. All of these ideas might make sense in a centralized currency.

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bubblesort
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March 21, 2013, 01:20:18 PM
 #222

His point was blockchain technology is expensive (in terms of never ending storage requirements, massive computing power, and eternal risk of 51% attack).  This isn't to say Bitcoin is "bad" but there is a cost.  The cost is the price for decentralization.

Having a decentralized, centralized currency makes absolutely no sense.  You combined all the costs and limitations of a decentralized currency with all the costs and limitations of centralized one.  Don't feel bad it is a common noob mistake.

To be honest, I don't understand block chains at all yet.  I haven't run across a serious explanation in any of the FAQs I've read or intro to bitcoin videos I've seen so far.  They all gloss over it like it's just magic or something, which is kind of frustrating.  I program (and I have dabbled in cryptography before) and I'm a semester away from having a bachelors in economics from Indiana University of PA, so I doubt it's beyond me, I just haven't found the right documentation yet.

Can you recommend a place to find some documentation that isn't frustratingly dumbed down?

DeathAndTaxes
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March 21, 2013, 01:27:42 PM
 #223

They all gloss over it like it's just magic or something, which is kind of frustrating.

That it intentional.  Most people will never be able to (or need to) understand the currency at the "nuts and bolts" level.  Just like someone can use facebook without needing to understand the OSI model or the Internet Protocol.  Even a good web developer doesn't really need more than a high level understanding of those concepts (mainly so they can understand the limits and capabilities of the world wide web).

Quote
Can you recommend a place to find some documentation that isn't frustratingly dumbed down?

The source that started it all ...
http://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf

A tip.  Read it from start to finish.  Even if there are parts you don't quite get or have questions about read it from start to finish.  Then wait a few days and read it again.  Later as you are looking at code, asking informed questions, and piecing together the mechanics refer back to it.   Also if you read through it and believe you understand Bitcoin on the first try ... you don't.  Smiley

Then there is the source code ...
https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin

Without a good understanding of the paper above though it will just be technical magic.

When you can ask informed technical questions this site is a good resource:
http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/
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March 21, 2013, 01:36:36 PM
 #224

The source ...
http://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf

A tip.  Read it from start to finish.  Even if there are parts you don't quite get or have questions about read it from start to finish.  Then wait a few days and read it again.  Later as you are looking at code, and asking informed questions refer back to it.   Also if you read through it and believe you understand Bitcoin on the first try ... you don't.  Smiley


Thanks!  Now I'm getting somewhere with this!  Time to order some pizza and settle in for a day or two.

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March 21, 2013, 09:50:31 PM
 #225

  Also if you read through it and believe you understand Bitcoin on the first try ... you don't.  Smiley

Ain't that the truth.  I read it four or five times over the course of two weeks before it clicked for me.  The first three times I read it, I would have sworn that it's some kind of complicated scam, but something about it nagged at me.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
Beepbop
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March 22, 2013, 10:39:14 AM
 #226

Bitcoins are not supposed to redistribute wealth evenly nor are they designed for a communist regime.
I like how this thread has so many posters who neither understood the OP or read the rest of the thread. It's not about redistribution. It's about initial distribution, and how Bitcoin looks like a premine to every potential new adopter.
It would be very similar to Bitcoin actually, replace mining with buying others' fair money.
It might have been more similar if mining didn't turn into a race to the bottom. As it is, it would be very different from Bitcoin.

Why wouldn't you adopt if someone is willing to give you something for it?
Precisely. But to treat that sentence as not a rhetorical question: "Because it's too difficult and time consuming to do so." If you know that you can get 10 USD by claiming some cryptocurrency that was equally distributed to the Earth's population, but it takes several days of work to do so, some might not bother and just leave it in their "account" until it becomes easier to do and the value rises.
As I said earlier, the distribution would become heterogeneous very rapidly.
The higher the value rises, the more people would join the system. You'd stilll have people who are more interested in holding than selling, but as the system grows I actually think the heterogeneity would lower over time. As the value rises, there would be less incentive in the system for the new adopters to sell their coins cheaply to a handful of hoarders.
I think this sort of heterogeneity is a requirement for adoption anyway, otherwise no one would have enough incentive to develop services for it.
On the other hand if it becomes too heterogeneous - i.e. too few people hold the coins without using them for anything useful (hoarding) - it leads to failure.
You could try making it legal tender instead, but since it doesn't have any value,
Being legal tender is enough to give a currency value, since you are guaranteed to be able to use it for paying off debts and taxes. Of course, if you let that currency hyperinflate it would still be a low value, but since the "lifecoins/fair coins" are in limited supply you'd avoid that problem.
If you start out with one king making all the coins, requiring taxes paid in coins, and paying for public works and public servants in coins, you sort of have the extreme case of heterogenous holding. This still works since the king rules that the coins are the legal tender of the land, and there's not an infite number of rival kings issuing their own coins.
stronger hands will still accumulate them until they have enough to work on making it useful. It will be completely "unfair", as these people will make a huge profit out of it by selling these back to the people they bought from.
If the coins end up on the hands of just a few people who offer services to increase the value of their coins, they have effectively become a sort of voucher for their services. It wouldn't be unfair to the non-holders, since the non-holders would buy coins to pay for the services offered in the coin economy.
1. A ("strong hand") buys funnycoins from B ("weak hand") for USD.
2. A provides goods and services for funnycoins
3. A sells funnycouns to B for USD.
4. B buys goods and service from A for funnycoins.

Even if coin/USD rate has risen from step 1 to step 3, what has effectively happened is that B bought goods and services from A at market rates. So the "strong hand" here is the one that actually provides something that the market will exchange something of value for, at competitive rates. If, however, A fails to provide that, this happens instead:

1. A ("strong hand") buys funnycoins from B ("weak hand") for USD.
2. A provides goods and services for funnycoins.
3. B uses the USD from step 1 to buy goods and services from C

What has happened here, is that the "strong hand" is left holding the bag and effectively paid B to shop from C.
h4r13q1n
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March 22, 2013, 11:10:24 AM
 #227

I personally find it pretty amazing that the bitcoin algorithm anticipates human behavior. Its a pretty smart move to ensure acceptance by early adopters in this way. The architecture rewards risk with profit. for early adopters it was a risk investing fiat money or computational power into btc in early times.

Pretty easy to come here nowadays when bitcoin is established and complain basically about not jumping on the wagon earlier.
Kato
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March 22, 2013, 11:17:37 AM
 #228

It is not fair to share them equally, as the currency is not mandated by authorities and comes with high risk for early users.

Hypothetically, let's just suppose that the Bitcoins were shared equally amongst the worlds 6bn inhabitants. Even if all future Bitcoins were available today, that would mean 0.0035 BTC per person. The most likely outcome is that most of those BTC would sit idle and never be used, which would stymie the growth and innovation in the Bitcoin environment. It is far better to have the BTC in the hands of people who are willing to use them today, thus promoting ongoing growth and innovation. The people who do this must be willing to buy in with their own capital and do take on substantial risk, because despite many claims to the contrary, there is in fact no guarantee that Bitcoin will amount to something much more valuable in the future, and like any investment it is indeed possible to end up with zero value as an ultimate outcome.

It might be argued that it would be more democratic to give everybody in the world access to the same information and opportunities (which always come with risk). Realistically of course this is impossible. But if every person on the planet knew of and had access to Bitcoins, each individual could then decide whether they are willing to take this risk or not. Certainly not everybody will. Still, my bet is that every current Bitcoin owner would be entirely supportive of such a global education program if it could be done!
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March 22, 2013, 11:42:21 AM
 #229

As I said earlier, the distribution would become heterogeneous very rapidly.
The higher the value rises, the more people would join the system. You'd stilll have people who are more interested in holding than selling, but as the system grows I actually think the heterogeneity would lower over time. As the value rises, there would be less incentive in the system for the new adopters to sell their coins cheaply to a handful of hoarders.

I still think the distribution curve would be similar to Bitcoin, however as you said, it would probably become much flatter eventually, as if Satoshi had the same amount of resources required for Lifecoin to advertise the system before it began.

Early adopters of Bitcoin have gained so much, because they did work for almost zero anticipated gain. It is the curse of knowledge that makes it seem different for newcomers. I had made a bet with an economics research associate about Bitcoin's success, which at the time he called an utter waste of time on our part, even though I personally wasn't involved in mining. Even the time trying to utilize it seemed like a loss (and this was 2011, not 2009).

Lifecoin could have a much higher advantage in this aspect (depending on implementation), which would help it develop in a more homogenous manner. Having Bitcoin as an example is also a huge plus.

If the coins end up on the hands of just a few people who offer services to increase the value of their coins, they have effectively become a sort of voucher for their services. It wouldn't be unfair to the non-holders, since the non-holders would buy coins to pay for the services offered in the coin economy.

Well said.
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March 22, 2013, 11:51:05 AM
 #230

They tried to solve this problem with LiteCoin (probably the 2nd best crypto-currency) by making it harder to run away from a CPU/GPU.

Anyone who can build a mining rig with non-off the shelf components like FPGA or ASIC can gain a huge cost/speed advantage over the other miners in the market especially if they keep it to themself.

That seems to be happening with ASIC right now and I do worry about it concentrating the network and killing the project. Bitcoin is becoming less and less the peoples coin, and more and more the coin of the select few.

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March 22, 2013, 12:04:26 PM
 #231

They tried to solve this problem with LiteCoin (probably the 2nd best crypto-currency) by making it harder to run away from a CPU/GPU.

Anyone who can build a mining rig with non-off the shelf components like FPGA or ASIC can gain a huge cost/speed advantage over the other miners in the market especially if they keep it to themself.

That seems to be happening with ASIC right now and I do worry about it concentrating the network and killing the project. Bitcoin is becoming less and less the peoples coin, and more and more the coin of the select few.
Are you living in some parallel universe or something?  How with adoption that is happening in front of your very eyes do you get to 'the coin of the select few'?!!
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March 22, 2013, 12:08:41 PM
 #232

That seems to be happening with ASIC right now and I do worry about it concentrating the network and killing the project. Bitcoin is becoming less and less the peoples coin, and more and more the coin of the select few.

On the other hand, asics bring bitcoin mining in the reach of the average user. they're end-user products for non-technically adept people and thats a good thing, isn't it?

bitcoin is based on the principle of rational players. those who hold large stocks of bitcoin or hashpower do not want the system to break, so they'll likely find measures to prevent this.

The same complains can be heard about mining pools. But in the recent chainfork they basically saved the day by downgrading to .7. so everything has its two sides,.
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March 22, 2013, 12:37:00 PM
 #233

That seems to be happening with ASIC right now and I do worry about it concentrating the network and killing the project. Bitcoin is becoming less and less the peoples coin, and more and more the coin of the select few.

ASIC's will bring mining to any person who can plug a cable to a socket. You just need to be patient until the market settles. The current situation is the fault of failing ASIC manufacturers.

Besides, as long as the wealth gets distributed, what does it even matter? Even if ASIC's bring mining to every person who wants a coffee warmer, less and less people will be able to run full nodes. In the future, there might be fewer full nodes than miners. It still won't make it the coin if the select few.

Mining is completely irrelevant to the currency, as long as it is able to prevent attacks.
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March 22, 2013, 12:39:04 PM
 #234

bitcoin is based on the principle of rational players.
Anything based on 100% rational players or 0% rational players are equally stupid, I think.

those who hold large stocks of bitcoin or hashpower do not want the system to break, so they'll likely find measures to prevent this.
Well, they have an incentive to both keep it technically secure and to keep the exchange rate up. But this isn't sustainable in the long run. Unless somebody starts providing goods and services that are cheaper or better when paid for with bitcoin, it will collapse. Shops that peg their BTC pricing to USD do not count, since due to its infinite divisibility, even if there was only 1 BTC in the wild with you holding all the rest, your customers would just pay with 0.00000000000000000000001 BTC or whatever. And if there was another guy who held the other half of the bitcoins, he could just sell bitcoins for less USD than you're selling them for. And nobody else would accept them for payment due to their volatility, so your hoard would be next to worthless if you tried cashing out. A vicious cycle. If you, however, priced your goods and services in BTC, there would be a market for buying BTC as a sort of futures instrument on your production.

You could say that one guy holding all the coins and the coins starting out evenly distributed are both "corner cases" of a cryptocurrency. If your system can't handle both, and move between them without collapsing, it's not a good system.
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March 22, 2013, 01:11:43 PM
 #235

infinite divisibility

wat o_O?

0.00000001 BTC = 1 satoshi = smallest possible unit.
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March 23, 2013, 12:09:05 AM
 #236

Bitcoins are not supposed to redistribute wealth evenly nor are they designed for a communist regime.
I like how this thread has so many posters who neither understood the OP or read the rest of the thread. It's not about redistribution. It's about initial distribution, and how Bitcoin looks like a premine to every potential new adopter.

I like how so many people think there's a meaningful distinction between the two.

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March 23, 2013, 12:10:11 AM
 #237

between all the people?
I don't see the reason why a few people who were the first could gain a big share of the coins and people who want to buy coins now have to pay for them. and why would people will cooperate with such system.
I mean I only heard about this today, I would participate earlier if I knew about it.

No

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March 23, 2013, 12:12:11 AM
 #238

infinite divisibility

wat o_O?

0.00000001 BTC = 1 satoshi = smallest possible unit.

There are a number of ways in which subdividing Satoshis could be achieved, if desired some day.

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April 07, 2013, 12:06:29 AM
 #239

It could be argued economy-philosophicaly whether the unequal distribution (http://eprint.iacr.org/2012/584.pdf) of economical power creates a risk for a system which is grows and get ever pathological as that unequality passes a critical threshold.

In that line of reasoning ,for example in bitcoin , anonimity & a huge balance of few persons doesnt create a risk for the system in the form of strong incentive to become a market maker and speculator and enhance value volatility and faith strength  ?

Ironically bitcoin is implemented in libre code where the zeigeist is "more eyes catch the bug" and "sharing is good" and the common case in each new libre program is reusing ideas and libre code from other programs ,a case that puts each creator in more earthly status among his peers.
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April 07, 2013, 12:12:30 AM
 #240

please let this thread die  Roll Eyes

Rep Thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=381041
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