Proof-of-Stake [POS]

[pc888]

There are currently different versions of POS, I am interested to hear whether BCT Community members have any preferences.

If you would like to take part in a discussion feel free, please state what type and your reasoning behind it.

My interest stems from are current community vote:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1040956.0

[freshman777]

r0ach: "POS is scammy permissioned IPO scam"
Spoetnik: "shit, shit, shit."
TBTP: "POS is worse than POW, you're dumb, you don't understand."

[BitcoinNational]

@pc888

well it is what we are trying to firgure out at TALK thread https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=864994

what is the better flavors of POS

i like low memory use / fast stake time / under 15%
if you can encode TOR features it be near perfect

[BitcoinNational]

r0ach: "POS is scammy permissioned IPO scam"
Spoetnik: "shit, shit, shit."
TBTP: "POS is worse than POW, you're dumb, you don't understand."

i think it is
r0ach: "POS is scammy permissioned ledger scam" .. "no entropy"

but you got the other 2 right

[pc888]

@pc888

well it is what we are trying to firgure out at TALK thread https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=864994

what is the better flavors of POS

i like low memory use / fast stake time / under 15%
if you can encode TOR features it be near perfect

Thanks for your input, yes I intend to have TOR and I2P a feature.

Just briefly BTA is currently POW, 5 million total coins, we getting close to 12 mths old. BTA will also operate within a Barter platform, replacing traditional trade credits.

[take_off]

the thread bitcoinnational posted is great, lots of info

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=864994

i agree i dont think you want to go higher than 15%
the concept of this coin is not about staking its about your roadmap (Barter platform)
but for keeping the network strong you need people staking so % point can't be over looked
personally i would like to see atleast 10%
if your a staker coin enthusiast you can only run so many wallets at any given time
to low of a % point and people wont keep wallet running if they have multiple stakers
im speaking as a person who stakes alot of coins  ,many people might not care about
% point, for me i have to justify running wallet, no different than mining a coin

im invested in bata becasue i like the  dev/roadmap/community
i realize staking is secondary ,but its always nice to earn a little interest on your investment
while waiting for development

my 2 bata

[pc888]

the thread bitcoinnational posted is great, lots of info

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=864994

i agree i dont think you want to go higher than 15%
the concept of this coin is not about staking its about your roadmap (Barter platform)
but for keeping the network strong you need people staking so % point can't be over looked
personally i would like to see atleast 10%
if your a staker coin enthusiast you can only run so many wallets at any given time
to low of a % point and people wont keep wallet running if they have multiple stakers
im speaking as a person who stakes alot of coins  ,many people might not care about
% point, for me i have to justify running wallet, no different than mining a coin

im invested in bata becasue i like the  dev/roadmap/community
i realize staking is secondary ,but its always nice to earn a little interest on your investment
while waiting for development

my 2 bata

yes that link and some others on that page are also great reference points (& your links too) - thanks

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1431805.msg14486879#msg14486879

[alyssa85]

You need to investigate the difficulty of a PoS coin before you go in, don't just look at the advertised % return. If the difficulty is high, you need a lot more coins just to compete and stake, and your return will be low.

Example: HYP advertises a high state, but in reality the difficult has risen, so you need to group your coins in bigger chunks to optimise for staking. Clams also sounds good, till you realise that JustDice has pretty much cornered the market for staking that coin and you won't be able to compete with their gigantic wallet.

As with everything, you need to research it.

[take_off]

You need to investigate the difficulty of a PoS coin before you go in, don't just look at the advertised % return. If the difficulty is high, you need a lot more coins just to compete and stake, and your return will be low.

Example: HYP advertises a high state, but in reality the difficult has risen, so you need to group your coins in bigger chunks to optimise for staking. Clams also sounds good, till you realise that JustDice has pretty much cornered the market for staking that coin and you won't be able to compete with their gigantic wallet.

As with everything, you need to research it.

absolutely needs to be looked at
some coins do stake blocks with set amounts aswell
gives you a little more of a chance but the big wallets well
always dominate

examples:
bitbean 1000 pr block
orbcoin  1 pr block
energycoin 5 pr block

[BitcoinNational]

stake pools are a moral hazard [hackers/bad operators/both]
@alyssa85 you getting at the mysterious thing that is searched for ...

a) how many coins do you need to stake? (sprouts/hyp way tough unless you have big lots)
b) right distro patterns? peer, nova, CLAM (already centralized)

my ideal number is that at least the Top1000 accounts have a chance of staking every 24/hrs, Top3000 is even better
the trick then seems to set a max limit on block reward, and have quick hold times, perhaps set 12hr hold on new block confirm/release

[BitcoinNational]

examples:
bitbean 1000 pr block
orbcoin  1 pr block
energycoin 5 pr block

i like these, at the very least it prevents a huge whale from only staking every 30days and hammering the diff.
in these coins a whale is forced into block splitting to maximize returns (which is complex) but it is little benefit for him to have a super 'heavy' weight.

the other option is limiting block max reward (like above examples) and then super long confirmation/release like 5 days
the coin whale has no choice but take a time out.
but too long of confirm periods are very dangerous if the network has few stakers ... it will lock up because no one has available coins to stake


orb is awesome ... hybrid pow is neoscrypt (no ASIC) and POS is flat @ 1 ... nearly the best low inflation fail safe combo i've seen ... CBX was the best but they pulled the POW.

[cryptohunter]

examples:
bitbean 1000 pr block
orbcoin  1 pr block
energycoin 5 pr block

i like these, at the very least it prevents a huge whale from only staking every 30days and hammering the diff.

the other option is limiting block max reward (like above examples) but then super long confirmation/release like 5 days
but too long of confirm periods are very dangerous if the network has few stakers ... it will lock up because no one has available coins to stake

So what would the exact params of a very fair POS coin with good security look like?

Something that does not favour huge wallets, but still gives great security and encourages holding and staking?

POS3 and POSP seem the current favs. But what params would you change in blackcoin to make it even better?

[BitcoinNational]

re: POS3 and POSP
i am not well informed so will let someone in the audience field that

imo generally a hybrid with at least 4 POW pools +easy to POS is going to offer "greatest security"

[pc888]

The thread has some good feedback and ideas regarding POS.

When it comes to specifics regarding tweaking POS, the consensus is what we will go with.

Most of all it needs to benefit new users, without making bagholders rich and controlling.

[alyssa85]

Unfortunately you can only find out the difficulty of a coin after you have downloaded the wallet and spent a few days syncing it. As far as I know there isn't a website that lists difficulty of PoS coins the way they do for PoW coins.

[BitcoinNational]

i have hopes of getting the right guys around a table to create some blend of coinmarketcap, coinwarz, and block explorer feeds that features POS only.

'a few days' ... I spent 6 months trying to figure if a certain minty coin would stake 

[kiklo]

Unfortunately you can only find out the difficulty of a coin after you have downloaded the wallet and spent a few days syncing it. As far as I know there isn't a website that lists difficulty of PoS coins the way they do for PoW coins.

Closest is https://chainz.cryptoid.info/
Difficulty is listed.

But since PoS coin has different specs, viewing the difficulty does not really help determine the best amount of coins per block, only the people staking know that info.
Also some are hybrid PoW & PoS so the PoW difficulty will be shown if the last block found was PoW.

Many people believe that combining PoW & PoS makes a coin safer, it does not.
It gives two points of entry to guard instead of one.
Strong PoS but weak PoW ,  vulnerable coin.
Strong PoW but weak PoS ,  vulnerable coin.

The reason:
ZEIT & Mint dropped PoW was a security vulnerability discovered by Rat4 of Blackcoin.

Considering the fact that the Chinese currently control the Majority of the World's ASICS,
and the mining pools in China alone account for over 60% of BTC,
I would say PoW difficulty is irrelevant at this point as the battle for PoW security has already been lost.
The only real question for BTC & LTC & Doge holders, is how much trust do you have in the Chinese Government to protect your investments. 

 

[BitcoinNational]

hybrid PoW & PoS is believed to be safer.  
imo not really and issue, let PPC sort that debate out.

unless you want to scale to $Billions, then theoretic security issues, are less of a concern.
the major concern for an up start chain is getting the basics right to build a community/network, and i think the existing core code has proven that POS works, and we will see how much capital gets invested onto it.

hybrid PoW & PoS in practice is more complex (more bugs), yet the transitional versions (POW stops after 50k blocks etc) seem to work pretty good.

the ASIC Chinese Government relationship is interesting; don't doubt higher power within the Finance Ministery aren't contemplating the advantages of a digital currency that they literally control production of ... if they can also corner the markets ... things get very interesting.

[pc888]

Unfortunately you can only find out the difficulty of a coin after you have downloaded the wallet and spent a few days syncing it. As far as I know there isn't a website that lists difficulty of PoS coins the way they do for PoW coins.

Closest is https://chainz.cryptoid.info/
Difficulty is listed.

But since PoS coin has different specs, viewing the difficulty does not really help determine the best amount of coins per block, only the people staking know that info.
Also some are hybrid PoW & PoS so the PoW difficulty will be shown if the last block found was PoW.

Many people believe that combining PoW & PoS makes a coin safer, it does not.
It gives two points of entry to guard instead of one.
Strong PoS but weak PoW ,  vulnerable coin.
Strong PoW but weak PoS ,  vulnerable coin.

The reason:
ZEIT & Mint dropped PoW was a security vulnerability discovered by Rat4 of Blackcoin.

Considering the fact that the Chinese currently control the Majority of the World's ASICS,
and the mining pools in China alone account for over 60% of BTC,
I would say PoW difficulty is irrelevant at this point as the battle for PoW security has already been lost.
The only real question for BTC & LTC & Doge holders, is how much trust do you have in the Chinese Government to protect your investments. 

 

I agree with the statement regarding asics and infact any future mining hardware technology.

POS will definitely address that issue.

[soulgate]

1 - 2 % POS