Government agents shooting at targets with picture of Pregnant American Woman

[Monster Tent]

Looks like civil war's a-comin.  They'll arm cops and soldiers to the teeth, but the citizen?  No, he can't resist.  We can't have resistance.

The idea that at this stage a few citizens armed with pea shooters can be effective against the US war machine is a bit ridiculous. Although a few guys in caves seem to be going ok 

[Dabs]

This is sick. But they do have to train to resist the instinct to hesitate. I mean, I've seen people (maybe civilian citizens) train with uniformed targets, so they don't hesitate when it's the other way around.

I mean, no matter who it is, if they are pointing a gun at you, you have got every right to stop that threat. It goes both ways.

[creativex]

This is sick. But they do have to train to resist the instinct to hesitate. I mean, I've seen people (maybe civilian citizens) train with uniformed targets, so they don't hesitate when it's the other way around.

I mean, no matter who it is, if they are pointing a gun at you, you have got every right to stop that threat. It goes both ways.

They don't actually, cops are too trigger happy already as evidenced by the kids being murdered for wielding toy guns made out of bright orange plastic. The odds of a very ripe pregnant woman threatening officers' lives whilst conducting a crime that justifies the use of deadly force is so remote that there's no need to train for this eventuality. The consequences of this training are very negative public relations resulting in a justifiable loss of trust among the populace further endangering public servants and further psychological issues for those under going this unnecessary de-sensitivity training. These are primarily family men with wives and children of their own, how does unnecessary training such as this effect them in everyday interactions? We all know the psychological profile of the average law enforcement recruit isn't the most stable of starting points.

[johnniewalker]

Trust me, I'm no fan of ANY American bureaucracy (especially the police). But, perhaps the pregnant woman was a target to teach how to shoot a [possibly fatal] shot and not injure the baby in the womb.

[myrkul]

Trust me, I'm no fan of ANY American bureaucracy (especially the police). But, perhaps the pregnant woman was a target to teach how to shoot a [possibly fatal] shot and not injure the baby in the womb.

Right, because killing the mother doesn't harm an unborn child. 

No, there can be only one reason to have targets of pregnant women: desensitization.

[TheButterZone]

Trust me, I'm no fan of ANY American bureaucracy (especially the police). But, perhaps the pregnant woman was a target to teach how to shoot a [possibly fatal] shot and not injure the baby in the womb.

Yes, because cops are also medical doctors with a full Caesarean tray and premature birth life support to get the baby out alive immediately after shooting the mother in the head.

[Richy_T]

Are they getting Lon Horiuchi in to do the training?

[TheButterZone]

If you can't carry it by yourself, it's not an arm, and not covered, as the Constitution codifies an individual right.

The only way this is debatable is if you allow fallacies in your debate. Criminal safety advocates do, the rest of us should not.

[420]

If you can't carry it by yourself, it's not an arm, and not covered, as the Constitution codifies an individual right.

The only way this is debatable is if you allow fallacies in your debate. Criminal safety advocates do, the rest of us should not.

yeah most people dont know the 1779 definition of 'arm'

would be a good thing to teach 2nd amendment advocates and naysayers

[Dabs]

Arms are not defined. But there are definitions for "small arms", meaning man portable or not crew served. If you happen to be like Rambo or the Terminator and can carry a mini-gun or gatling gun all by yourself, that should technically be allowed as small arms.

Also, in the revolution, the army (both sides) used cannons that were privately owned. Cannons are basically big black powder breech loaded guns. Artillery is the modern version.

[MysteryMiner]

But really, children?  Why not a dog with a rifle strapped to his back?  This is highly unsettling, to be mild.

I recently practiced shooting to printed pictures of cops and political leaders as targets. Much more fun than shooting at empty beer cans. But FAL rifle have too much kick in full auto to reasonably hit something at a distance. I hope this makes things right again. The shooting of kids and pregnant women is not good, unless she works for government.

[fwho]

What about the incredibly stupid, racist and fear mongering right wing Christians that are among them and think it's okay to beat children or send them off to fight in wars for no good reason? I hate them all, particularly the ones that assume I must be on the opposite side because I disagree with them and they don't know any other political ideologies the stupid pricks.

I love conversations like this, especially when they include these comments that make me laugh so hard my side splits.


Anyways, there seems to be this mass confusion that Soldiers, Police, etc are all just brainless sheep that are going to follow any and all orders handed down to them no matter how extreme they are. Here is a crazy thought, they are people with the ability to think just like the rest of you (some seemingly a little better...). In fact, the only Soldiers I have ever met that would be willing to take anyone's gun are the worthless turds who are not very good Soldiers. So if you seriously believe you are going to have to fight the "war machine", you are probably being a little more extreme than those child abusing, war mongering Christians.

[Mike Christ]

What about the incredibly stupid, racist and fear mongering right wing Christians that are among them and think it's okay to beat children or send them off to fight in wars for no good reason? I hate them all, particularly the ones that assume I must be on the opposite side because I disagree with them and they don't know any other political ideologies the stupid pricks.

I love conversations like this, especially when they include these comments that make me laugh so hard my side splits.


Anyways, there seems to be this mass confusion that Soldiers, Police, etc are all just brainless sheep that are going to follow any and all orders handed down to them no matter how extreme they are. Here is a crazy thought, they are people with the ability to think just like the rest of you (some seemingly a little better...). In fact, the only Soldiers I have ever met that would be willing to take anyone's gun are the worthless turds who are not very good Soldiers. So if you seriously believe you are going to have to fight the "war machine", you are probably being a little more extreme than those child abusing, war mongering Christians.

When the news says something about American soldiers putting down their weapons and refusing to follow their commander's orders because they felt what they were doing was wrong, I'll agree with you   I'm sure its happened at some point in time, just, not a whole lot, or not for very long.  But the trend seems to be, do what you're told or else you're a traitor, and though soldiers do have conscious, they're not given much room to think outside the box.  I'd be scared to, personally.  They kick your ass in the military until you see things their way.

[creativex]

Episodes like law enforcement running around confiscating firearms in open defiance of the Constitution during Katrina doesn't exactly instill much confidence. Here's a group of premusably pro 2nd amendment citizens with badges that have no problem taking the 2nd amendment rights from other citizens when they're so ordered. This is an example of following orders without applying common sense.

[fwho]

When the news says something about American soldiers putting down their weapons and refusing to follow their commander's orders because they felt what they were doing was wrong, I'll agree with you   I'm sure its happened at some point in time, just, not a whole lot, or not for very long.  But the trend seems to be, do what you're told or else you're a traitor, and though soldiers do have conscious, they're not given much room to think outside the box.  I'd be scared to, personally.  They kick your ass in the military until you see things their way.

Actually, it has happened a lot. In fact, I was shocked at the amount of people who were simply discharged for going AWOL over the past decade. No prison time, no "traitor" status, just released. And again, your post shows more blindness to what would actually happen if the government decided to start slaying citizens. The commanders would be among the first to say "not happening". For example, listen to the open opposition from high ranking Marine commanders when Dont Ask, Dont Tell was repealed to allow gays to serve openly. I think the quote was something along the lines of "That is not happening in my Corp!" And you think they are going to just say, ah alright, well kill off a few thousand citizens who decide to stand up for the same Constitution that we are sworn to defend. Comon!

[fwho]

Episodes like law enforcement running around confiscating firearms in open defiance of the Constitution during Katrina doesn't exactly instill much confidence. Here's a group of premusably pro 2nd amendment citizens with badges that have no problem taking the 2nd amendment rights from other citizens when they're so ordered. This is an example of following orders without applying common sense.

You also seem to forget about the fact that there was so much rioting and chaos, even among Police, that martial law was issued and the military DID take over. You are trying to compare apples to oranges. There was so much devastation and destruction, people going crazy and doing whatever they wanted, they probably felt that was the only way to maintain safety. Was the right answer, probably not. But when your facing non-stop looting and just about every other crime.

[Mike Christ]

When the news says something about American soldiers putting down their weapons and refusing to follow their commander's orders because they felt what they were doing was wrong, I'll agree with you   I'm sure its happened at some point in time, just, not a whole lot, or not for very long.  But the trend seems to be, do what you're told or else you're a traitor, and though soldiers do have conscious, they're not given much room to think outside the box.  I'd be scared to, personally.  They kick your ass in the military until you see things their way.

Actually, it has happened a lot. In fact, I was shocked at the amount of people who were simply discharged for going AWOL over the past decade. No prison time, no "traitor" status, just released. And again, your post shows more blindness to what would actually happen if the government decided to start slaying citizens. The commanders would be among the first to say "not happening". For example, listen to the open opposition from high ranking Marine commanders when Dont Ask, Dont Tell was repealed to allow gays to serve openly. I think the quote was something along the lines of "That is not happening in my Corp!" And you think they are going to just say, ah alright, well kill off a few thousand citizens who decide to stand up for the same Constitution that we are sworn to defend. Comon!

Hrm, I dunno if I'd trust a fellow who was openly against Don't Ask, Don't Tell being revoked.  But I suppose there are different reasons; getting more and more people into the military is a common theme lately, despite the military being already bloated beyond belief, and I smell another draft in the works.  Can you link me a few sources for commanders actively refusing to follow certain orders?  I know the military hasn't always been the best in the past ten years (there was a post recently about a member seeking donations for his brother's squad who wasn't even receiving the basic necessities required to do their job, let alone survive comfortably), but people change when times are desperate.  If there is an uprising, I would hope the military would remember who their true commanders are, and it isn't the guys in suits at D.C., but money's never failed before.  I have faith in humanity, but not that much; history has a strange way of repeating itself.  The Germans can attest to killing their own kind, including the handicapped and deformed, and if they could do it under certain circumstances, I wouldn't rule it out completely.

[creativex]

Episodes like law enforcement running around confiscating firearms in open defiance of the Constitution during Katrina doesn't exactly instill much confidence. Here's a group of premusably pro 2nd amendment citizens with badges that have no problem taking the 2nd amendment rights from other citizens when they're so ordered. This is an example of following orders without applying common sense.

You also seem to forget about the fact that there was so much rioting and chaos, even among Police, that martial law was issued and the military DID take over. You are trying to compare apples to oranges. There was so much devastation and destruction, people going crazy and doing whatever they wanted, they probably felt that was the only way to maintain safety. Was the right answer, probably not. But when your facing non-stop looting and just about every other crime.

Umm...you're damaging your own argument. Don't you think that if the military was ordered to put down a "rebellion" that the "rebels" would be labelled domestic terrorists first? If simply saying a US citizen is a domestic terrorist or that martial law is declared and therefore Constitutional rights are null and void then there are no Constitutional rights to nullify. If there's looting and chaos then how does going door to door to take away each citizens right and ability to defend themselves solve the problem? Would YOU follow that order if you were put in that position?

[fwho]

Hrm, I dunno if I'd trust a fellow who was openly against Don't Ask, Don't Tell being revoked.  But I suppose there are different reasons; getting more and more people into the military is a common theme lately, despite the military being already bloated beyond belief, and I smell another draft in the works.  Can you link me a few sources for commanders actively refusing to follow certain orders?  I know the military hasn't always been the best in the past ten years (there was a post recently about a member seeking donations for his brother's squad who wasn't even receiving the basic necessities required to do their job, let alone survive comfortably), but people change when times are desperate.  If there is an uprising, I would hope the military would remember who their true commanders are, and it isn't the guys in suits at D.C., but money's never failed before.  I have faith in humanity, but not that much; history has a strange way of repeating itself.  The Germans can attest to killing their own kind, including the handicapped and deformed, and if they could do it under certain circumstances, I wouldn't rule it out completely.

Dont Ask, Dont Tell is a whole other subject, but it goes far beyond the black and white "we dont like them because they dont think like us". Such as the fact that one gay guy, like it or not, can bring down an entire units moral and create discomfort. Especially when you consider that there might be 100+ guys who shit and shower in open right next to their buddy, and then go sleep on a cot 6" away from him. And you shouldnt rule it out completely. There are those who would conform for any number of reasons. Maybe they believe in the cause, maybe they are worried about their families well being, or maintaining that income. Maybe they are near retirement and dont want to risk the pension. But rest assured, those who would allow this insanity to happen are far outnumbered by those who wouldnt.

Umm...you're damaging your own argument. Don't you think that if the military was ordered to put down a "rebellion" that the "rebels" would be labelled domestic terrorists first? If simply saying a US citizen is a domestic terrorist or that martial law is declared and therefore Constitutional rights are null and void then there are no Constitutional rights to nullify. If there's looting and chaos then how does going door to door to take away each citizens right and ability to defend themselves solve the problem? Would YOU follow that order if you were put in that position?

I dont feel I am damaging it at all. There is a vast difference is saying "they are a terrorist, get'em" and someone who is raping, pillaging, and destroying. Your circling right back to that lost sheep misconception. Lets say one of these back woods militias decided to start blowing shit up, and a Guard unit was sent to take them out. Would they? Well if they are blowing shit up, killing people, and hurting Americans, then yeah. If that militia was just popping off rounds in the woods talking big shit about how they are going to overthrow the Government, dont count on it.

As for them rounding up the weapons, I actually never heard of it before. I know quite a few people who were on that detail, and none of them ever mentioned anything about it. Quite a few have talked about detaining police and other things, but never taking weapons from citizens.

[creativex]

Do some research then, there's plenty of information available about what happened in New Orleans. The confiscations were door to door. Riots and looting are no justification at all for this behavior. These were orders that should not have been followed, but were and while I'm certainly not saying regular troops would just open fire on a civilian population in a US city because Colonel blahblah told them to, I'm also not convinced those orders would be ignored by all.

BTW militias were the backbone of the Continental army, though the word has now come to be derogatory. Wonder how.