Mycelium's "crowdsale": basically a donation, not an investment by any means

[TheCryptoMint]

mycellium will end as scam

Why do you think that? I'm in charge of this wallet project, and I've spent years building a very trustworthy and ethical reputation. That's more valuable to me than any amount of money. Especially considering I'm an ancap who believes that if bitcoin wins over national currencies, without government oversight your reputation will be the most important thing. My hope is that we will have decentralized reputation systems, and everyone who has scammed and got away with it so far will be exposed, and no one would want anything to do with them. This project might fail, of course. There's no guarantee of returns or profit. But considering this is my project that I hope launches Mycelium to the top and gets me recognition, it won't be failing from a lack of me trying.

Alanis I remember that Barcode scanner. Saw it at CompUSA once.

thanc for reply but all u guys do is have no way to incentive so u make extra "token" that u will dump on users in the end
i like this wallet but the way u now are goign means something is not working right

Not strictly an "exit scam" tho. Mycelium explicitly states that its digital tokens give you no rights whatsoever, are basically a gift to Mycelium. How is that misleading?

But they are tradable bitcoin gives you no rights either apart from a figure in your wallet. Yet you can sell them for 400 usd.

I am quite happy a lot of people are missing the point here as more of the 5% will be mine.

[whored]

mycellium will end as scam

Why do you think that? I'm in charge of this wallet project, and I've spent years building a very trustworthy and ethical reputation. That's more valuable to me than any amount of money. Especially considering I'm an ancap who believes that if bitcoin wins over national currencies, without government oversight your reputation will be the most important thing. My hope is that we will have decentralized reputation systems, and everyone who has scammed and got away with it so far will be exposed, and no one would want anything to do with them. This project might fail, of course. There's no guarantee of returns or profit. But considering this is my project that I hope launches Mycelium to the top and gets me recognition, it won't be failing from a lack of me trying.

Alanis I remember that Barcode scanner. Saw it at CompUSA once.

thanc for reply but all u guys do is have no way to incentive so u make extra "token" that u will dump on users in the end
i like this wallet but the way u now are goign means something is not working right

Not strictly an "exit scam" tho. Mycelium explicitly states that its digital tokens give you no rights whatsoever, are basically a gift to Mycelium. How is that misleading?

But they are tradable bitcoin gives you no rights either apart from a figure in your wallet. Yet you can sell them for 400 usd.

I am quite happy a lot of people are missing the point here as more of the 5% will be mine.

Sure, they're tradable, as are AsicMiner share on Havelock.*
As long as you're not the greatest of the greater fools, you should do fine, irregardless of whether Mycelium becomes a successful business or spends your coin on hookers & blow

There is a fairly established and liquid market for BTC, I know approximately how much I'll get per coin. Mycelium tokens? not so much.

>as more of the 5% will be mine
5% of what, if it's not impolite to ask?

*AsicMiner doesn't exist. Hasn't for about two years. The shares are still trading. Sorta.

[alani123]

mycellium will end as scam

Why do you think that? I'm in charge of this wallet project, and I've spent years building a very trustworthy and ethical reputation. That's more valuable to me than any amount of money. Especially considering I'm an ancap who believes that if bitcoin wins over national currencies, without government oversight your reputation will be the most important thing. My hope is that we will have decentralized reputation systems, and everyone who has scammed and got away with it so far will be exposed, and no one would want anything to do with them. This project might fail, of course. There's no guarantee of returns or profit. But considering this is my project that I hope launches Mycelium to the top and gets me recognition, it won't be failing from a lack of me trying.

Alanis I remember that Barcode scanner. Saw it at CompUSA once.

thanc for reply but all u guys do is have no way to incentive so u make extra "token" that u will dump on users in the end
i like this wallet but the way u now are goign means something is not working right

Not strictly an "exit scam" tho. Mycelium explicitly states that its digital tokens give you no rights whatsoever, are basically a gift to Mycelium. How is that misleading?

But they are tradable bitcoin gives you no rights either apart from a figure in your wallet. Yet you can sell them for 400 usd.

I am quite happy a lot of people are missing the point here as more of the 5% will be mine.

If that's the case, you're also missing the point. If people aren't interested now, why would they buy a share later on when it'd take so long for the product to launch? This isn't comparable to other ICOs or crowdsales because the product isn't set for launch right after the sale. It'd be safe to assume that there wouldn't much (if any) buying pressure to help early investors to liquidate their stake before the launch (which there's no ETA for).

[bitbitch]

i can''t imagine any serious investor going for this proposition. taking shares in the actual company (and more than a share of just 5%) might be worth considering as an investment in a diversified portfolio of other investments.

[mookid]

This reminds me of the whole Oculus Rift fiasco, the project was funded throught a Kickstarter, they collected millions, and yet, Facebook came, made the 'owners' rich and the backers of the project didn't get anything.

Only DAO's can solve this problem, it would be cool to have equity in a company in a trustless decentralised way.

[tomkat]

I have decided to stay away from this one. I don't like the idea of buying digital tokens for something like their Mycelium wallet which is not even stocks of a real company. And I don't know how they can put a worth of $100 million to $900 million on something that is basically free for everyone to use. What am I missing here? It looks like a get rich quick scheme that can blow up in our faces.

They'll just sell another fancy token - easy peasy ... :-)

[TheCryptoMint]

This reminds me of the whole Oculus Rift fiasco, the project was funded throught a Kickstarter, they collected millions, and yet, Facebook came, made the 'owners' rich and the backers of the project didn't get anything.

Only DAO's can solve this problem, it would be cool to have equity in a company in a trustless decentralised way.

YES I Agree the DAO is amazing. I put 20 BTC into that lets hope it succeeds.

[gravitate]

2000 bitcoin in so far anyway. I am still positive that the tokens will be worth a great deal when the new wallet launches. I can wait till next year for that. By that time the block halving will have settled down and the btc price will be slowly rising

[Rassah]

all u guys do is have no way to incentive so u make extra "token" that u will dump on users in the end

This isn't a "token" like some altcoin or something. This is an actual stake ownership in the company. We are selling 5% of company ownership (the Wallet division), not just random tokens that don't mean anything.

Not strictly an "exit scam" tho. Mycelium explicitly states that its digital tokens give you no rights whatsoever, are basically a gift to Mycelium. How is that misleading?

Where do you get the idea that these tokens give you no rights whatsoever? When buying, you have to sign a contract with Mycelium that has a legal binding. It gives you legal rights to any increase in company valuation, and makes the token a transferable contract that grants you ownership rights to 5% of the company (which would go down if you pull your increased valuation cash out, of course).

The whole thing may be moot by now anyway though, since we set a cap of 7,500, and some private investors may have filled it all up by now. We won't update the final amount on the site until we know we have the money.

[bitbitch]

all u guys do is have no way to incentive so u make extra "token" that u will dump on users in the end

This isn't a "token" like some altcoin or something. This is an actual stake ownership in the company. We are selling 5% of company ownership (the Wallet division), not just random tokens that don't mean anything.

Not strictly an "exit scam" tho. Mycelium explicitly states that its digital tokens give you no rights whatsoever, are basically a gift to Mycelium. How is that misleading?

Where do you get the idea that these tokens give you no rights whatsoever? When buying, you have to sign a contract with Mycelium that has a legal binding. It gives you legal rights to any increase in company valuation, and makes the token a transferable contract that grants you ownership rights to 5% of the company (which would go down if you pull your increased valuation cash out, of course).

The whole thing may be moot by now anyway though, since we set a cap of 7,500, and some private investors may have filled it all up by now. We won't update the final amount on the site until we know we have the money.

"private investors" - when compared to what other kind of investors, in the context of an ICO?

[Rassah]

"private investors" - when compared to what other kind of investors, in the context of an ICO?

As in those who didn't go through the online site, instead talking to our CEO in person and investing directly. We have had a few large investors expressing interest in wanting to invest without anyone else knowing who they are for whatever reason. Seems they went through with their stated interest after all. Maybe. Still waiting to confirm the funds.

[gravitate]

"private investors" - when compared to what other kind of investors, in the context of an ICO?

Can I be a private investor?

As in those who didn't go through the online site, instead talking to our CEO in person and investing directly. We have had a few large investors expressing interest in wanting to invest without anyone else knowing who they are for whatever reason. Seems they went through with their stated interest after all. Maybe. Still waiting to confirm the funds.

[Rassah]

Not strictly an "exit scam" tho. Mycelium explicitly states that its digital tokens give you no rights whatsoever, are basically a gift to Mycelium. How is that misleading?

Where do you get the idea that these tokens give you no rights whatsoever? When buying, you have to sign a contract with Mycelium that has a legal binding. It gives you legal rights to any increase in company valuation, and makes the token a transferable contract that grants you ownership rights to 5% of the company (which would go down if you pull your increased valuation cash out, of course).

From your website, bottom of the page:
"Token is not a security, is not listed, authorized, issued or traded on any regulated market." It's explicitly a token, not a security, because you are not registered with the SEC. "Increase in company valuation" is meaningless if I have no idea who is doing the "valuation," the methadology of this "valuation," or what, for that matter, is exactly being "valuated." From your site again: "The crowdsale offer refers to the Wallet project only," i.e. NOT Mycelium the company.

These are legally SAR contracts and give you all the same rights. It's a contract granting you ownership of a portion of the company, and any growth therein. And why would Mycelium register with the SEC when it's not a US company?
Company valuation is explicitly spelled out in the contract as trigger events, and happens any time another sale of company happens (we plan to sell 20% of dilutable shares next), or when company becomes profitable, or when someone buys out the company. The wallet division is wholly owned by a separate Mycelium entity, which is what is being sold off here. Mycelium the company owns things like Entropy, Gear, Swish, and Card, which are still too early to even know if they are profitable, and will be funded by personal and other private investment. The wallet is being sold in this manner because we believe it is the only product so far that actually has the potential to make money. You are free to invest in the whole company as well, just know that it's extremely risky right now.

[bitbitch]

Not strictly an "exit scam" tho. Mycelium explicitly states that its digital tokens give you no rights whatsoever, are basically a gift to Mycelium. How is that misleading?

Where do you get the idea that these tokens give you no rights whatsoever? When buying, you have to sign a contract with Mycelium that has a legal binding. It gives you legal rights to any increase in company valuation, and makes the token a transferable contract that grants you ownership rights to 5% of the company (which would go down if you pull your increased valuation cash out, of course).

From your website, bottom of the page:
"Token is not a security, is not listed, authorized, issued or traded on any regulated market." It's explicitly a token, not a security, because you are not registered with the SEC. "Increase in company valuation" is meaningless if I have no idea who is doing the "valuation," the methadology of this "valuation," or what, for that matter, is exactly being "valuated." From your site again: "The crowdsale offer refers to the Wallet project only," i.e. NOT Mycelium the company.

These are legally SAR contracts and give you all the same rights. It's a contract granting you ownership of a portion of the company, and any growth therein. And why would Mycelium register with the SEC when it's not a US company?
Company valuation is explicitly spelled out in the contract as trigger events, and happens any time another sale of company happens (we plan to sell 20% of dilutable shares next), or when company becomes profitable, or when someone buys out the company. The wallet division is wholly owned by a separate Mycelium entity, which is what is being sold off here. Mycelium the company owns things like Entropy, Gear, Swish, and Card, which are still too early to even know if they are profitable, and will be funded by personal and other private investment. The wallet is being sold in this manner because we believe it is the only product so far that actually has the potential to make money. You are free to invest in the whole company as well, just know that it's extremely risky right now.

why the two jurisdictions?

[alani123]

Not strictly an "exit scam" tho. Mycelium explicitly states that its digital tokens give you no rights whatsoever, are basically a gift to Mycelium. How is that misleading?

Where do you get the idea that these tokens give you no rights whatsoever? When buying, you have to sign a contract with Mycelium that has a legal binding. It gives you legal rights to any increase in company valuation, and makes the token a transferable contract that grants you ownership rights to 5% of the company (which would go down if you pull your increased valuation cash out, of course).

From your website, bottom of the page:
"Token is not a security, is not listed, authorized, issued or traded on any regulated market." It's explicitly a token, not a security, because you are not registered with the SEC. "Increase in company valuation" is meaningless if I have no idea who is doing the "valuation," the methadology of this "valuation," or what, for that matter, is exactly being "valuated." From your site again: "The crowdsale offer refers to the Wallet project only," i.e. NOT Mycelium the company.

These are legally SAR contracts and give you all the same rights. It's a contract granting you ownership of a portion of the company, and any growth therein. And why would Mycelium register with the SEC when it's not a US company?

To sell securities to US nationals. It's teh law
You're a US citizen, right? Where's your company based/registered at?

P.S. How are these "tokens" "legally SAR contracts"? In what jurisdiction? Do you know what SARs are?

Did you check the OP?

Remember that a Cyprus-based holding company is involved, and Mycelium operations are supposedly Latvian-based.

[Rassah]

why the two jurisdictions?

Because we live in the world that we live in, where the answer to this is always "for legal and tax purposes." We used to be registered in Austria, but moved to Cyprus for those reasons.

These are legally SAR contracts and give you all the same rights. It's a contract granting you ownership of a portion of the company, and any growth therein. And why would Mycelium register with the SEC when it's not a US company?

To sell securities to US nationals. It's teh law

We're not selling securities. And please do not break the law by buying these if it's illegal where you live.

You're a US citizen, right? Where's your company based/registered at?

For now yes. It's not my company, I am technically just a contractor. It's registered in Cyprus, with the Wallet division registered in Latvia.

P.S. How are these "tokens" "legally SAR contracts"? In what jurisdiction? Do you know what SARs are?

When you buy them, you have to agree to and sign a contract with the company. The token is just an easy way to prove ownership. The jurisdiction may be listed in the contract, but considering we only ask for proof of ownership of the toke, and don't have any way of knowing where you are, jurisdiction doesn't matter for us. We'll honor it just based on honoring contracts being the ethical thing to do (AnCaps, remember?). Since this is a legal contract, most jurisdictions should be able to honor them too, but you'll have to check with your lawyer. Yes, we know what SARs are.

[alani123]

^Sorry, was lazy of me. Just checked. Latvian addy is a rent-a-desk, 10 Euro per day. http://www.desksurfing.net/desks/1423-darbavieta

Nice catch. Added to the OP.

[bitbitch]

it seems that this discussion has become academic as private investors have apparently filled the allocation.

[alani123]

it seems that this discussion has become academic as private investors have apparently filled the allocation.

Dunno, there are some newbies that pop up here and there doing detective work. TurkistatnRising for example, found out (and posted) that Mycelium's physical address is actually a rent-a-desk service's address on his second post. On the one hand, we've got people claiming to have invested thousands of dollars worth of bitcoin in this and they're shamelessly shilling for Mycelium and on the other hand we get people like TurkistatnRising posting here, doing detective work on Mycelium (seemingly) with no gain on their end. It's weird, but this kind of balances shilling out.

[bitbitch]

it seems that this discussion has become academic as private investors have apparently filled the allocation.

Dunno, there are some newbies that pop up here and there doing detective work. TurkistatnRising for example, found out (and posted) that Mycelium's physical address is actually a rent-a-desk service's address on his second post. On the one hand, we've got people claiming to have invested thousands of dollars worth of bitcoin in this and they're shamelessly shilling for Mycelium and on the other hand we get people like TurkistatnRising posting here, doing detective work on Mycelium (seemingly) with no gain on their end. It's weird, but this kind of balances shilling out.

i'm all for digging for the truth. i appreciate the efforts being made.