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Author Topic: ripple: let's test it!  (Read 43518 times)
Monster Tent
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February 23, 2013, 11:09:18 AM
 #181

So am I correct to assume that ripple is designed to allow fractional reserve banking at the gateways?
I think this will happen:
- 1000 users at a gateway will deposit 10 BTC each and extend trust over 10BTC to said gateway.
- The gateway should hold 10000 BTC to cover the trust.
- The gateway will monitor how many BTC are withdrawn and deposited per day over time, say 1000 BTC
- The gateway will only keep 2000 BTC on hand.
So we have 2000 real bitcoins that back 10000 ripple-BTC-IOUs and this will work until there is a bank-run on the gateway at which point the gateway can't pay up and the people will start revoking their trust.

I think this is correct.

However it is not unreasonable to expect that there will be a competitive market in gateways. One of the selling point will be the advertised reserve ratio and its auditability (easy with BTC). Other ones will be the fees and general reputation/trustworthiness of the entity.

I'm thinking of this:

Free Banking
Free banking refers to a monetary arrangement in which banks are subject to no special regulations beyond those applicable to most enterprises, and in which they also are free to issue their own paper currency (banknotes). In a free banking system, market forces control the supply of total quantity of banknotes and deposits that can be supported by any given stock of cash reserves, where such reserves consist either of a scarce commodity (such as gold) or of an artificially limited stock of "fiat" money issued by a central bank. In the strictest versions of free banking, however, there either is no role at all for a central bank, or the supply of central bank money is supposed to be permanently "frozen." There is, therefore, no agency capable of serving as a "lender of last resort" in the usually understood sense of the term. Nor is there any government insurance of banknotes or bank deposit accounts.

sounds good to me. free market for banks.

Do any current bitcoin exchanges have a public bitcoin address that shows their current reserves ?

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February 23, 2013, 11:10:45 AM
 #182

An order popped up that I did not enter (the last one at the bottom):



wtf? can anyone explain this? or is it a bug?

It sounds like a feature, I can be completely wrong on this, but it sounds like those orders were created with the lines of trust you established with people, so they kinda are your orders but not really. Someone tell me if I am wrong, still trying to learn a lot here.

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February 23, 2013, 11:18:48 AM
 #183

An order popped up that I did not enter (the last one at the bottom):



wtf? can anyone explain this? or is it a bug?

It sounds like a feature, I can be completely wrong on this, but it sounds like those orders were created with the lines of trust you established with people, so they kinda are your orders but not really. Someone tell me if I am wrong, still trying to learn a lot here.

According to Joel (post #181) something like this should not happen.

Could it be other people's exchanges on the markets are Rippling through you?
These can only result in one of two things happening:

1) IOUs that you used to hold from one issuer you now hold from a different issuer in the same currency. (And unless you do something very unusual, in the same amount.)

2) Offers that you placed are taken or partially taken. Your balance in the currency/issuer you are selling will decrease and the one you are buying will increase.

To be honest, I don't fully understand how the client presents offers. There's an open issue to make it clearer.


In laymans terms to me this means: auto-trading only happens within the same currency (and different issuer) and: trades between different currencies only ever happen based on an order entered by the user.

So I think your suspicion is incorrect.

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February 23, 2013, 11:21:19 AM
 #184

Here I am:

rpuebQXsR7kAst5yidD6fmGmJHD4niXzbo
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February 23, 2013, 11:30:25 AM
 #185

Here I am:

rpuebQXsR7kAst5yidD6fmGmJHD4niXzbo

I would like to test 2 things with you guys:

1.) sending bitinstantUSD: let me send you USD 0.1. you'll need to establish bitinstant-trust for USD of at least 0.1 USD

2.) sending USD through trust-chain: let's say some other dude (who wants to be that dude?) wants to receive USD 0.2 from me and I want to send him. He doesn't trust bitinstant. Let's say he trusts grondilu, though. He could establish trust of USD 0.2 on grondilu. I should then be able to send him 0.2 bitinstantUSD which will be converted to grondiluUSD on-the-fly. Correct?

anyone want to help? grondilu?

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February 23, 2013, 11:37:14 AM
 #186

I'm don't have a bitinstant account yet.

But I would like to test this, too.

So I could be the middle man. What would I have to do?

r9RpJFpD6vkKhgHhrRjkgofSbNsE1oYFZ1

Edit: Added Monecular for 5 UDS but I can't add grondilu, reason "account doesn't exist"

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February 23, 2013, 11:40:28 AM
 #187

I would like to test 2 things with you guys:

1.) sending bitinstantUSD: let me send you USD 0.1. you'll need to establish bitinstant-trust for USD of at least 0.1 USD

2.) sending USD through trust-chain: let's say some other dude (who wants to be that dude?) wants to receive USD 0.2 from me and I want to send him. He doesn't trust bitinstant. Let's say he trusts grondilu, though. He could establish trust of USD 0.2 on grondilu. I should then be able to send him 0.2 bitinstantUSD which will be converted to grondiluUSD on-the-fly. Correct?

anyone want to help? grondilu?

I'm ok to receive your 0.1 bitinstandUSD, but I can't establish any trust right now, as I'm told:

« You have to be funded before you can grant a trust »
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February 23, 2013, 11:46:27 AM
 #188

I'm don't have a bitinstant account yet.

But I would like to test this, too.

So I could be the middle man. What would I have to do?

r9RpJFpD6vkKhgHhrRjkgofSbNsE1oYFZ1

Edit: Added Monecular for 5 UDS but I can't add grondilu, reason "account doesn't exist"

you don't need a bitstamp account. Just trust in them. Address is: rvYAfWj5gh67oV6fW32ZzP3Aw4Eubs59B

then we can try 1.)

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molecular
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February 23, 2013, 11:46:56 AM
 #189

I would like to test 2 things with you guys:

1.) sending bitinstantUSD: let me send you USD 0.1. you'll need to establish bitinstant-trust for USD of at least 0.1 USD

2.) sending USD through trust-chain: let's say some other dude (who wants to be that dude?) wants to receive USD 0.2 from me and I want to send him. He doesn't trust bitinstant. Let's say he trusts grondilu, though. He could establish trust of USD 0.2 on grondilu. I should then be able to send him 0.2 bitinstantUSD which will be converted to grondiluUSD on-the-fly. Correct?

anyone want to help? grondilu?

I'm ok to receive your 0.1 bitinstandUSD, but I can't establish any trust right now, as I'm told:

« You have to be funded before you can grant a trust »

you don't have XRP?

I think you need 300, let me send...

EDIT: I sent you 350 ripples. You can give them back later when you received your 50,000.

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February 23, 2013, 11:47:21 AM
 #190

you guys wanna do this on irc? #ripple

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February 23, 2013, 11:48:06 AM
 #191

you guys wanna do this on irc? #ripple


ok let's do this.
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February 23, 2013, 12:22:36 PM
 #192

you guys wanna do this on irc? #ripple


ok let's do this.

we did using #ripple and it basically failed saying "you have no trust line in this currency"

Code:
<moleccc> hi
<moleccc> cool
<moleccc> so, can you establish trust to bitinstant now?
<grondilu> so I must add it as contact first right?
<moleccc> rvYAfWj5gh67oV6fW32ZzP3Aw4Eubs59B <- bitinstant
<moleccc> don't know, but it makes sense anyway
<moleccc> shit
<grondilu> should I check this or should I trust you ;)  ?
<moleccc> I keep saying bitinstant... it's BITSTAMP
<moleccc> please check
<grondilu> ok hang on a sec
<grondilu> I can't find their ripple address on their website
* Akka (~akka@dslb-084-056-133-183.pools.arcor-ip.net) has joined #ripple
<grondilu> it seems that I need to register to bitstamp first to see their address
* grondilu opens an account
<Akka> Is your account funded now, or do you still need XRP? I could send you some.
<moleccc> hi akka
<moleccc> a moment
<grondilu> I confirm rvYAfWj5gh67oV6fW32ZzP3Aw4Eubs59B as the ripple address for bitstamp
<grondilu> ok
<moleccc> I'm funded
<grondilu> I trust bistamp for 1 USD
<moleccc> so let's do step 1.)
<moleccc> I send 0.1 USD to grondilu
* abrkn has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
<moleccc> I cannot enter this, but it should be bitstamp IOU USDs
<Akka> I can't trust grundilu - reason Missing/inapplicable prior transaction
<moleccc> http://i.imgur.com/UyegmIX.png <- sent 0.1 USD to grondilu
<moleccc> @Akka: had this before. try reloading the page. you will likely have to login again
<moleccc> http://i.imgur.com/tUgOhma.png <- tx is in history,... twice
<grondilu> I did receive 0.1 USD
<moleccc> nice!
<moleccc> is there any way you can see wether these are IOU of bitstamp?
<moleccc> ok, let's setup 2.) trust relationships should be as follows:
<moleccc> a) grondulu trusts bitstamp with USD
<moleccc> b) akka trusts grondilu with USD
<grondilu> they are labelled as "USD - US Dollar"
<moleccc> c) akka doe NOT strust bitstamp with USD
<Akka> OK I now trust you both, if you remove each other it shpould be possible to make a transaktion through me, without me to you bitintant accounts without me even seeing it.
<moleccc> oh
<moleccc> d) akka does NOT trust molecular with USD
<moleccc> because otherwise you would just receive molecular IOUs I guess
* grondilu starts to feel a headache
<Akka> I do 5 USD - rpH3zuMch2GrrYX724xGWwbMGwiQ5RbSAU
<moleccc> argh
<moleccc> What I described is a transaction from molecualr -> akka
<moleccc> through grondilu
<moleccc> Akka, you should not trust me for this test to work
<moleccc> only trust grondilu
<moleccc> so the USD will be converted from bitstamp IOUs to grondilu IOUs
<Akka> OK - so I set my trust to you to 0 and to grondilu to 5 than you should be able to send me USD through him, right?
<moleccc> exactly
<moleccc> tell me when you're done
<Akka> I don't trust you anymore
<Akka> so done
<moleccc> it failed: http://i.imgur.com/iKUvg5F.png, http://i.imgur.com/vrt9v8d.png
<grondilu> I don't have to do anything, right?  You intend to use the transitivity of the trust system?
<moleccc> "you have no trust line in this currency"
<moleccc> hmmm
<moleccc> @grondilu, yes
<moleccc> seems it can't find a path
<grondilu> I'm not sure this is how it's supposed to work.
<moleccc> second try gives different error: "Your transaction failed to clear, reason: Missing/inapplicable prior transaction."
<moleccc> will restart client
<Akka> All I need to do is trust grondilu? Or do I have to open a bitstamp account, too?
<moleccc> no
<moleccc> no account necessary and no trust should be necessary to bitstamp
<moleccc> at least the way I understand it
<moleccc> definitely no account necessary
<moleccc> failed again with first error message
<grondilu> Hang on.  I did put only 1 USD trust into bitstamp.  So maybe that's not enough.
<moleccc> that's enough
<moleccc> tried sending USD 0.2
<grondilu> then it's not supposed to be transitive.
<moleccc> grondilu: not that I think it's necessary but maybe we could try you putting trust to me with USD? or do you already have that?
<grondilu> no.  Let me try.
<grondilu> you're r9RpJFpD6vkKhgHhrRjkgofSbNsE1oYFZ1, right?
<moleccc> oh, I just realized something: I think my USD are not bitstamp USD. I acquired these through some trade!!!
<moleccc> rpH3zuMch2GrrYX724xGWwbMGwiQ5RbSAU <- molecular
<moleccc> no, you got wrong address there
<moleccc> r9RpJFpD6vkKhgHhrRjkgofSbNsE1oYFZ1 <- akka
<Akka> Correct
<Anduck> hmmm
<Anduck> anyone sells xrp for btc?
<moleccc> damnit, how can I check what IOU my USD are?
<Akka> @depends, if you only nees some to activate your account I gift them to you
<moleccc> no, actually they must be bitstamp USD. Can see it on the trust page: http://i.imgur.com/6bob758.png
<grondilu> moleccc: I added 1 USD trust from you
<moleccc> ok, will try sending 0.2 USD to akka agin
<moleccc> "You have no trust line in this currency."
<moleccc> it's not working as I would expect ;)
<moleccc> "<grondilu> then it's not supposed to be transitive." <- that'd be bad, no?
<Akka> grondilu -> rpuebQXsR7kAst5yidD6fmGmJHD4niXzbo ?
<grondilu> Akka: yes
<grondilu> moleccc: mayybe on the contrary, it's a good thing.
<grondilu> this means you can receive IOUs only from people you directly trust.
<moleccc> I don't think so. It should work. The user just wants to send USD, and if akka trusts grondilu IOUs its ok for Akka to receive grondiluUSD
<moleccc> grondilu: trust itself is not transitive
<grondilu> Maybe.  I need to read more about this stuff
<moleccc> ok, let's just call this test FAIL and we obviously need to learn more ;)
<Akka> That's the way I understand it. And if grundilu trust monecular we should have a path.
<moleccc> I'll post transcript to the thread if that's ok with you guys?
<grondilu> ok
<Akka> OK


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February 23, 2013, 02:08:45 PM
 #193

you guys wanna do this on irc? #ripple


ok let's do this.

we did using #ripple and it basically failed saying "you have no trust line in this currency"

Code:
<moleccc> hi
<moleccc> cool
<moleccc> so, can you establish trust to bitinstant now?
<grondilu> so I must add it as contact first right?
<moleccc> rvYAfWj5gh67oV6fW32ZzP3Aw4Eubs59B <- bitinstant
<moleccc> don't know, but it makes sense anyway
<moleccc> shit
<grondilu> should I check this or should I trust you ;)  ?
<moleccc> I keep saying bitinstant... it's BITSTAMP
<moleccc> please check
<grondilu> ok hang on a sec
<grondilu> I can't find their ripple address on their website
* Akka (~akka@dslb-084-056-133-183.pools.arcor-ip.net) has joined #ripple
<grondilu> it seems that I need to register to bitstamp first to see their address
* grondilu opens an account
<Akka> Is your account funded now, or do you still need XRP? I could send you some.
<moleccc> hi akka
<moleccc> a moment
<grondilu> I confirm rvYAfWj5gh67oV6fW32ZzP3Aw4Eubs59B as the ripple address for bitstamp
<grondilu> ok
<moleccc> I'm funded
<grondilu> I trust bistamp for 1 USD
<moleccc> so let's do step 1.)
<moleccc> I send 0.1 USD to grondilu
* abrkn has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
<moleccc> I cannot enter this, but it should be bitstamp IOU USDs
<Akka> I can't trust grundilu - reason Missing/inapplicable prior transaction
<moleccc> http://i.imgur.com/UyegmIX.png <- sent 0.1 USD to grondilu
<moleccc> @Akka: had this before. try reloading the page. you will likely have to login again
<moleccc> http://i.imgur.com/tUgOhma.png <- tx is in history,... twice
<grondilu> I did receive 0.1 USD
<moleccc> nice!
<moleccc> is there any way you can see wether these are IOU of bitstamp?
<moleccc> ok, let's setup 2.) trust relationships should be as follows:
<moleccc> a) grondulu trusts bitstamp with USD
<moleccc> b) akka trusts grondilu with USD
<grondilu> they are labelled as "USD - US Dollar"
<moleccc> c) akka doe NOT strust bitstamp with USD
<Akka> OK I now trust you both, if you remove each other it shpould be possible to make a transaktion through me, without me to you bitintant accounts without me even seeing it.
<moleccc> oh
<moleccc> d) akka does NOT trust molecular with USD
<moleccc> because otherwise you would just receive molecular IOUs I guess
* grondilu starts to feel a headache
<Akka> I do 5 USD - rpH3zuMch2GrrYX724xGWwbMGwiQ5RbSAU
<moleccc> argh
<moleccc> What I described is a transaction from molecualr -> akka
<moleccc> through grondilu
<moleccc> Akka, you should not trust me for this test to work
<moleccc> only trust grondilu
<moleccc> so the USD will be converted from bitstamp IOUs to grondilu IOUs
<Akka> OK - so I set my trust to you to 0 and to grondilu to 5 than you should be able to send me USD through him, right?
<moleccc> exactly
<moleccc> tell me when you're done
<Akka> I don't trust you anymore
<Akka> so done
<moleccc> it failed: http://i.imgur.com/iKUvg5F.png, http://i.imgur.com/vrt9v8d.png
<grondilu> I don't have to do anything, right?  You intend to use the transitivity of the trust system?
<moleccc> "you have no trust line in this currency"
<moleccc> hmmm
<moleccc> @grondilu, yes
<moleccc> seems it can't find a path
<grondilu> I'm not sure this is how it's supposed to work.
<moleccc> second try gives different error: "Your transaction failed to clear, reason: Missing/inapplicable prior transaction."
<moleccc> will restart client
<Akka> All I need to do is trust grondilu? Or do I have to open a bitstamp account, too?
<moleccc> no
<moleccc> no account necessary and no trust should be necessary to bitstamp
<moleccc> at least the way I understand it
<moleccc> definitely no account necessary
<moleccc> failed again with first error message
<grondilu> Hang on.  I did put only 1 USD trust into bitstamp.  So maybe that's not enough.
<moleccc> that's enough
<moleccc> tried sending USD 0.2
<grondilu> then it's not supposed to be transitive.
<moleccc> grondilu: not that I think it's necessary but maybe we could try you putting trust to me with USD? or do you already have that?
<grondilu> no.  Let me try.
<grondilu> you're r9RpJFpD6vkKhgHhrRjkgofSbNsE1oYFZ1, right?
<moleccc> oh, I just realized something: I think my USD are not bitstamp USD. I acquired these through some trade!!!
<moleccc> rpH3zuMch2GrrYX724xGWwbMGwiQ5RbSAU <- molecular
<moleccc> no, you got wrong address there
<moleccc> r9RpJFpD6vkKhgHhrRjkgofSbNsE1oYFZ1 <- akka
<Akka> Correct
<Anduck> hmmm
<Anduck> anyone sells xrp for btc?
<moleccc> damnit, how can I check what IOU my USD are?
<Akka> @depends, if you only nees some to activate your account I gift them to you
<moleccc> no, actually they must be bitstamp USD. Can see it on the trust page: http://i.imgur.com/6bob758.png
<grondilu> moleccc: I added 1 USD trust from you
<moleccc> ok, will try sending 0.2 USD to akka agin
<moleccc> "You have no trust line in this currency."
<moleccc> it's not working as I would expect ;)
<moleccc> "<grondilu> then it's not supposed to be transitive." <- that'd be bad, no?
<Akka> grondilu -> rpuebQXsR7kAst5yidD6fmGmJHD4niXzbo ?
<grondilu> Akka: yes
<grondilu> moleccc: mayybe on the contrary, it's a good thing.
<grondilu> this means you can receive IOUs only from people you directly trust.
<moleccc> I don't think so. It should work. The user just wants to send USD, and if akka trusts grondilu IOUs its ok for Akka to receive grondiluUSD
<moleccc> grondilu: trust itself is not transitive
<grondilu> Maybe.  I need to read more about this stuff
<moleccc> ok, let's just call this test FAIL and we obviously need to learn more ;)
<Akka> That's the way I understand it. And if grundilu trust monecular we should have a path.
<moleccc> I'll post transcript to the thread if that's ok with you guys?
<grondilu> ok
<Akka> OK



In summary:

Akka trusted grondilu for 5 USD, and molecc for 0 USD.
grondilu trusted moleccc for 1 USD
grondilu trusted BitStamp for 1 USD

What you guys were trying to do was send 0.2 IOU/BitStampUSD --> moleccc --> grondilu --> Akka. 

So moleccc sends the 0.2 IOU/BitStampUSD to Akka, but Akka doesn't trust moleccc, so it goes first to grondilu.

I'm assuming Akka didn't trust BitStamp, so he would therefore have to accept grondilu's IOUs, which he does. grondilu trusts BitStamp and moleccc, so that should work just fine.

Yeah I don't get why this didn't work.

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February 23, 2013, 06:25:27 PM
 #194

An order popped up that I did not enter (the last one at the bottom):



wtf? can anyone explain this? or is it a bug?




I think that was me.

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February 23, 2013, 07:46:59 PM
 #195

An order popped up that I did not enter (the last one at the bottom):



wtf? can anyone explain this? or is it a bug?




I think that was me.

but how?

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February 23, 2013, 08:04:00 PM
Last edit: February 23, 2013, 08:34:22 PM by Timo Y
 #196

Here's mine:

rG8VFQPaJB2gNjx29Et1wKUJettQP1eLmk


[edit]: Trusted molecular for 0.1 BTC

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February 23, 2013, 08:09:57 PM
 #197

molecular,

Just trusted you for 0.1BTC. I'm: rKAw7uHrdUUEqtfFhBBHe6unyh57PLpCc4

Interested in playing around with this...

Bitcoin is the first monetary system to credibly offer perfect information to all economic participants.
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Melbustus
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February 23, 2013, 08:22:03 PM
 #198

What's with the triple ripple notification?


Bitcoin is the first monetary system to credibly offer perfect information to all economic participants.
Cryptoasset rankings and metrics for investors: https://onchainfx.com
Frontpage of crypto: https://messari.io
molecular
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February 23, 2013, 08:30:49 PM
 #199

What's with the triple ripple notification?



it's a known bug. See known issues of the client here: https://github.com/rippleFoundation/ripple-client/issues (or report your own findings). Just talked to justmoon (one of the client devs) and he says he very much welcomes our bug reports. Of course: please try not to enter duplicates.



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February 23, 2013, 08:32:19 PM
 #200

molecular,

Just trusted you for 0.1BTC. I'm: rKAw7uHrdUUEqtfFhBBHe6unyh57PLpCc4

Interested in playing around with this...

I'd be interested in receiving some CNY Wink I think it should be possible to send currencies you don't even have in your wallet (implicit currency conversion). So if you want to try sending me (a really small amount) of CNY, go ahead (address in my sig).


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