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Author Topic: Muslim Bitcoiner  (Read 12881 times)
daarul50
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November 19, 2017, 06:25:21 PM
 #301

ya, i muslim too. i think bitcoin not riba
to earn we must mining, buy it and may more. bitcoin can be wrong if u get it from gambling, and other unlawful ways
may we all be protected from riba

I also agree with you that bitcoin will not be usury if we look for it in a lawful way and not harming any party. Mining and trading are two ways that I think are safest from getting exposed to sin in getting bitcoin, but if we intend to follow the signature campaign is not a problem as long as we are smart to choose which signature campaign we will follow, I suggest to follow the signature campaign dev it's not coming from a gambling site.



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November 19, 2017, 06:36:19 PM
 #302

Assalamualaikum everyone..
I am Muslim and i have been using bitcoin for several months. I just learn bitcoin and i saw many a lot of devious scheme to earn bitcoin. Just like HYIP, PONZI, Gambling, Bet etc.I am very afraid of RIBA. therefore, for guidance and assistance will be appretiated

Thanks Grin Grin Grin

Yes, this is quite true. There are a lot of ways to earn bitcoin. You can also try mining, however, it involves investing on hardware devices, but the earning is great. You can try joining campaigns as well, this is the easiest way I think. It’s nice to know that many people are getting more interested in bitcoin.

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November 20, 2017, 03:55:30 AM
 #303

i also like you, i am a muslim in indonesia .. i play bitcoin for three months and earn good. but I do not play gambling because gambling law is forbidden to me .. I just play bounty ..

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November 20, 2017, 06:48:49 AM
 #304

Please check out the ummati project, a blockchain project by Muslims.

 The website is http://ummati.io

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December 09, 2017, 10:44:43 PM
 #305

hello brother...
where are you from ?

i am Indonesian  buddy  Cheesy

How the Internet works in your country?
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December 09, 2017, 11:21:04 PM
 #306

I love the fact that Muslims Adopt the BTC concept and use it  for various needs both legal and illegal when it was a "Western" conception and everyone knows how much they love western ways and ideology.

I Guess in the Muslim world if it conforms to your needs it's ok. Regardless of who created it.

BTC is good. Even though it's a westerners Invention and innovation.
Stoning people to death is good when they are Gay,Commit infidelity,don't conform to muslim ways.
Beheading is good for westerners and Infidels and Christians.

Bad things:
Women showing any part of their face or body.
Interest charges on Loans AHAHAHA
Women actually being able to go to school. Maybe the men are afraid the Women might get smarter than them?  Grin
Being any other Religion besides Muslim.
Pork. lmao even though Muslims claim it is a filthy beast i would argue it's cleaner than most Muslims.

So explain how do Muslims who hate Western Ways and ideology come to use a Western Invention?
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December 10, 2017, 12:21:37 AM
 #307

"Hello everyone, I am a gay, and I like Bitcoin."

 Wink I just feel like this comment is very relevant to this thread and Bitcoin.  
Eeeehm....Should there be a forum thread for Gay Miners?  Huh
wawanwawan96
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December 10, 2017, 03:44:53 AM
 #308

Assalamualaikum everyone..
I am Muslim and i have been using bitcoin for several months. I just learn bitcoin and i saw many a lot of devious scheme to earn bitcoin. Just like HYIP, PONZI, Gambling, Bet etc.I am very afraid of RIBA. therefore, for guidance and assistance will be appretiated

Thanks Grin Grin Grin
wallaikum salam...
stay away from usury and ponzi system that now a lot of me very annoyed at all with the hyip, ponzi can make people crazy.

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January 10, 2018, 04:12:41 PM
 #309

selamunaleyküm bende bir müslüman bitcoiner  Smiley

Waleikum asalam wa rahmatullahi wa barakata Smiley
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January 10, 2018, 04:16:53 PM
 #310

 I wrote the following article at medium.com/ummati about the concept of gharar.

“The principle of gharar in cryptocurrency

With the recent rally in cryptocurrency prices, questions appear to have been flooding in to Islamic scholars, leading to a new round of fatawa, or legal rulings, by prominent figures traditionally recognized as qualified in Islamic jurisprudence.

Opinions are divided, with some classically trained scholars seeing it as being not so different than the now largely digital dollar, while others considered that the extreme volatility of the price presented an excessive amount of risk. Some even declared bitcoin haram, or illegal/impermissible in Islamic law. The main principle used to justify this decision was the principle of gharar.

The principle of gharar is usually used to refer to transactions with uncertain or unclear outcomes. Futures contracts are a good example- agreeing to buy agricultural product before the harvest at a predetermined price. In applying this to bitcoin, the assumption is that since so much of the value of bitcoin is speculative, it is unclear what a person is buying and what the outcome of the entire bitcoin venture is going to be.

At least, this is the only way that I can understand that the principle of gharar could be applied to cryptocurrency.

The hadith usually cited as the basis for gharar refers to the selling of birds in the sky, fish in the sea, or unborn animals in the mother’s womb. Clearly this would include futures contracts. Looking at how various scholars interpreted this, we see the Hanafi school, broadly speaking, defined gharar as “that whose consequences are hidden.” Some scholars of the Shafii school of law define it as “something which in its manner and its consequence is hidden.” One Hanbali definition is “that whose consequences are unknown.”

One of the most relevant descriptions for this discussion may be the statement of Ibn Hazm, “Gharar is where the buyer does not know what he bought, or the seller does not know what he sold.”

This would clearly be the case in purchasing fruit before the time of harvest. No one knows what the outcome of the harvest will be. It could be a large amount of high quality fruit, or a small amount of completely inedible fruit.
 If we consider this in the case of bitcoin or more broadly cryptocurrency, it could definitely be argued that many people investing in bitcoin are engaging in gharar transactions. They may not really know what it is they are buying, and they may be motivated only by the hope of quick profits.

Let’s put this in a more understandable form.
 Let’s say there’s a village exisiting in total isolation from the outside world. This village has never had a combustion engine before. Then one day someone shows up with the plans for a combustion engine, and builds it, and starts to use it to run a water pump. Everyone is amazed, and the water pump service turns out to be highly profitable. The people who helped the first person build the engine become very wealthy.

Then people start saying that engines can be used for other things rather than just water pumps- they could be used for things like chainsaws, tractors, motorcycles, airplanes, or even to run multiple water pumps rather than just one water pump with modifications.

The result is that the value of the one functioning engine in the village skyrockets- not because of the actual value of the engine for its current use powering water pumps, but because of speculation about the future uses.
 Some claims may be very based in fact. Let’s say one villager has a design for a car, and real concrete plans for implementing it. Another villager may have a design for a “rain cloud maker” powered by an engine that has complicated schematics that actually don’t make any sense when you deeply analyze them- but some villagers are so impressed by the idea that they agree to help the man build it with their resources. The man then allots himself a hefty salary on the development team of the impossible “rain cloud maker” project.

Obviously, this scenario is taking a technology we understand, the combustion engine, and comparing it to one we don’t fully understand, blockchain.

What this is practically meant to illustrate is that whether or not a transaction falls into the category of gharar is directly related to the level of understanding of the person investing. This is not as clean and black and white as we might hope, but I don’t believe the presence of doubtful issues in the cryptocurrency space means that it should be avoided entirely. The value of bitcoin is highly driven by speculation, but essentially, bitcoin is similar to a stock in that it is a joint venture that is open to anyone. The value of bitcoin is determined largely by the contributions of the members of the bitcoin community, but bitcoin itself has proven uses that are entirely independent of its speculative value. Furthermore, purchasing a cryptocurrency increases its value, which in a way is a contribution to the development team of that cryptocurrency- this is very different than simply betting on the future value of a harvest. Buying cryptocurrency is a very real way to support the community developing a new technology. It thus has very real utility to society, unlike pure gharar transactions.

This underscores the importance of crypto currency education from the Islamic perspective- the difference between investing in bitcoin being halal (legal in Islamic jurisprudence) or not could be directly related to the level of knowledge of the person investing. This is because the essence of a gharar transaction is that the buyer does not know what they are buying.

In the example of a combustion engine, someone who does not understand it could look at it and say “Why are people making such a fuss over this strange looking hunk of metal? I’ve seen similar quantities of metal for much cheaper prices.” If someone were then to say “You can make something that can lift heavy objects for you with this, and maybe you turn lead into gold with it,” if the person was to purchase it with the hope that it could be used to manufacture gold, the value would be much higher, because creating gold out of lead would have much quicker and bigger gains than simply lifting heavy objects. If they were to really assess the dynamic of it and determine that it can be used to lift heavy objects, but not to manufacture gold, the value would be lower, but still much higher than a piece of metal of similar weight with no functionality as an engine.

This is another beautiful illustration of the wisdom of Islam, and how the legislation is designed with the well being of humans in mind.

In bitcoin, it was very clear from the beginning that the people who understood what bitcoin was were the ones that supported stability of the price. Each time there was a rally, a bunch of get-rich-quickers would show up and start buying into it even though they didn’t know what it was. Then some negative news story would come out, and the price would crash, and all of the people who didn’t understand what it was would panic and sell, resulting in the price crashing even more and leading to a lot of people losing a lot of money.
 However, the people who did understand it would patiently hold their coins, and speak as the voice of reason in the community, explaining why the fundamentals of bitcoin were still sound, and why it was, in fact, undervalued.

Gradually, this group would lead to price stability, and the prices would level out until the next rally.

Essentially, the strongest fatawa (Islamic legal rulings) on bitcoin have stated that investing in bitcoin is allowed if you belong to the people who “get it”, but not allowed if you are one of the “get-rich-quick” types that doesn’t get it.

If Muslims as well as non-Muslims could follow this guidance, it would lead to a much healthier cryptocurrency ecosystem overall.” Smiley
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January 10, 2018, 04:20:12 PM
 #311

I wrote this on quora to discusw Islamic perspective on cryptocurrency.

A major issue is that almost all classically trained scholars in Islam (rightfully) spend most of their time learning the essentials of the most important disciplines- akida, fiqh, hadith, tafsir, seerah, and other traditional disciplines. It takes time to understand how the modern currency system functions, and with the rigorous schedule of most Alim programs, there is simply not enough time to gain an in depth understanding of the nature of the financial and monetary system and its inter relation with Islamic law.

One study published by researches at the International Islamic University of Malaysia conducted a survey of sharia scholars to determine the extent of their understanding of the monetary system. It was administered as a quiz, and I believe almost none of the participants did very well. The study can be read here:

http://www.emeraldinsight.com/doi/abs/10.1108/H-01-2017-0013?&af=R



As far as I know, so far scholars have been divided. Generally most fatawa I encountered considered it as permissible, but with the recent steep increase in value, a few fatawa have come out against bitcoin and cryptocurrency in general in the past couple of months. A lot of the assumptions are based on misunderstandings or lack of understanding of the underlying technology and its uses. I’ve tried to list a few of the issues that the fatawa against blockchain bring up:

“It does not have a form or existence.”
The vast majority of dollars in existence have no physical form- they exist only as bits of data in a bank database. Why are there no fatawa (legal rulings) condemning the non-physical nature of this money? Is it because some of the dollars (less than 10%) have physical existence? In that case, a great many physical bitcoin have been produced, called Casascius coins. If the lack of a physical existence were a criteria for the validity of the use of an asset for cash, then we would have to apply the same standard to bank accounts.

2. “It does not have a government or authority regulating it.”

Bitcoin is regulated, albeit by consensus. Modifications to the code base must be accepted by the community. Likewise, a government or a private company is also a community of individuals, albeit with a different structure of government. If a decentralized network is not allowed in Islam, I have yet to see the proof from Quran or hadith.

3. “Investing in it is akin to gambling.”

This is absolutely true, if a person doesn’t understand what they are investing in. Investing in the stock market, which is allowed by nearly all Islamic scholars as far as I know(providing the company is compliant with Islamic law), is also akin to gambling if someone randomly buys a stock hoping to get rich. However, if a professional analyst studies the underlying indicators of companies and invests in a balanced spread, this is very different than blind investment.

The stock market is essentially a joint venture. Cryptocurrencies/blockchains are also like a joint venture, which is a quintessentially Islamic form of business. It is a well known principle in the cryptocurrency community that the value of a cryptocurrency is to some extent a reflection of the developer community behind it. When someone purchases a cryptocurrency, they are supporting the increase in market price of that currency, which empowers the developers who are working on it.

This is very different than pure speculation on something like wheat futures contracts, because in the case of a classic futures contract you are simply betting on an event in the future. When you invest in a cryptocurrency, you are becoming part of the community that develops something with real utility. Cryptocurrencies are used to transfer and store not only monetary value, but also information in the form of contracts, and to increase the efficiency of various business practices. This is a HUGE difference between cryptocurrency and gambling, and this alone should mean they cannot be considered to be the same thing, but there’s more.

When investing in cryptocurrency, there is a very real chance that everyone involved will win. With gambling, someone is going to lose. For example, if I agree to buy 100 kilograms of wheat Farmer Yahya in one month for $50 dollars, if the price is $60 dollars I win. If the price is $40 dollars, I lose. There is no scenario where both I and Farmer Yahya win. This kind of practice is not allowed in Islam.

However, with a cryptocurrency, there is the real possibility that I purchase the cryptocurrency, which leads to its value increasing. The people developing that cryptocurrency therefor have more money to put into its development by selling off some of their shares, and they use it to develop an App that makes it easier for people to buy and sell property, resulting in big savings for real estate agents. When people realize that it can be used for this, more people buy it to support the value, because they know demand for the currency will increase, causing its price to increase.

So yes, the value is highly speculative, but since that speculation is based on real future potential and since the possibility exists for everyone to win, it is quite a bit different than gambling.

4. “It is anonymous so it can be used for crime or terrorist financing.”

Well then, we should switch a centralized system in which everyone has a bank account controlled by the government, and cash and gold are illegal. Gold can likewise be transferred anonymously simply by using a mask, so do we want to try to outlaw gold, although it is sunnah to use gold as currency?

A principle in Islam is that “There is no obedience in unlawful matters.” This means that we are not required to obey rulers if they command us to do something that is against the teachings of Allah and his Messenger, sal Allahu alaihi wasalam. Since most of the governments in power today are not ruling in line with Islamic law, it is not permissible to give governments complete control over our money- rather we should support them in the good that they do, and advise them against whatever evil they do and refrain from supporting it.

5. “It is too risky, and will cause people to lose money”

This is a valid point, and some of the Islamic scholars who allowed bitcoin specified that it was allowed on the condition that the person investing understood the risks involved. A common statement in the cryptocurrency community is “Invest only what you can afford to lose.”

The purpose of Islamic law is to protect people, and guide them towards what is beneficial and away from what is harmful. Investing excessively in risky ventures could lead to very bad outcomes, so it is necessary to exercize caution. However, if a person understands what they are getting into and can afford to lose their investment in the event that it doesn’t work out, what is the problem in this?

Likewise, if someone invests in a difficult ocean voyage, knowing full well that the ship could sink and all of the merchandise lost, it would not be wise to invest so much that their family would be left destitute in the event of such an accident. Does this mean that ocean voyages are haram? Obviously not.

6. “It is like a pyramid scheme”

Cryptocurrencies have some properties of pyramid schemes. The people who get in first tend to make a lot more money than those who get in later. However, the pyramid scheme has an important difference, in that each person further down the ladder has to pay the person above.

In a cryptocurrency you buy something, like bitcoin, that has real uses, and you are never required to pay anything to the people who are already invested in the pyramid scheme. The increases in value are proportional to the number of people using it, which is actually the same reasons that the US dollar or even gold have value as a means of exchange.

7. “It’s like a ponzi scheme.”

A ponzi scheme is a scam in which someone offers big returns on an investment, and then pays those returns to the first investors using funds gained from the later investors.

The problem with this is that with a Ponzi scheme, the person or people running it are not actually doing what they say they are doing, for example, using some innovative trading strategy to earn big returns for investors. Dishonesty is a basic part of it.

By contrast, most blockchains are completely transparent, from the code underlying them, to the communications of the developers building them, and they give rise to applications that can be used for real things, like transferring money internationally, accounting, maintaining credit records, creating certificates of authenticity, loyalty programs, storing data, legal services like escrow, and much, much more. The value may be volatile and speculative, but this is because no one knows exactly how much can be done with blockchains, and how the future is going to play out.

The simple fact is that bitcoin, blockchains, and cryptocurrencies are going to change the ruling structure of the world. People whose position depends on this structure do not want to see this change. Blockchains can be used, like any internet technology, for purposes that are accaptable according to Islamic law, or for purposes that are unacceptable. It is up to the people using blockchains to learn the difference between right and wrong and to act accordingly, and it is up to Islamic scholars to gain a better understanding of the financial system to be able to guide those who are less well versed in the Islamic sciences towards ways of utilizing blockchain and any technology for the benefit of Muslims and all humanity.
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January 20, 2018, 07:04:23 PM
 #312

Many Muslim societies assume that bitcoin is haram. I am Muslim and I do not forbid bitcoin. Why? Because I did not find anything haram from bitcoin.
Bitcoin is not haram but bitcoin can be haram like real money when used for various unlawful acts like gambling and fraud. Two things are clearly prohibited in the religion of Islam because one party is harmed by the act. Bitcoin that has been circulating is the result of mining and if bitcoin is said to be forbidden then gold mining, oil, copper, and others are also said to be haram, whereas the mining process is the same, the only difference between the two is if gold mining destroys natural ecosystem while bitcoin mining will not damage the natural ecosystem.



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