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Author Topic: End of Governments  (Read 6579 times)
Anon136
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March 19, 2013, 03:08:48 PM
 #121

The "end of government" would mean the end of peace, security, freedom, and all the infrastructure that has never worked without a governing authority.

Security is a service, like any other, and we do not need a monopoly provider of this service. Infrastructure, even today, is mostly privately built, contracted by the governments. The "end of government" would only mean the "end of monopoly provision of security."

Nope. Security is a status.
A service can then make sure a status of peace is maintained.
If you do not more or less centralize the power used for maintaining peace you get rivalry (because one mans peace is another mans chaos) and that means no security untill a top dog arises. This top dog would be basically the same thing as a government protecting you only it will be Sony or Nike or Microsoft. And you will live in a city protected by such a multinational and will be working in their (or their friends) factories.
This will happen because multinationals have enourmous power world wide (they provide goods, they provide jobs, they have capital, they have real estate and they have an established global organisation). Some multinationals already have more power than some nations.
You will exchange a broken democratic system for a slave-worker operated multinational where a human beings life is measured in how much money they can make for the company.

And all that because you want to float your peace on a market.


microsoft is so so so sooo sooo sooooooooo much more competent than the united states government. Ill take my chances.

Rep Thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=381041
If one can not confer upon another a right which he does not himself first possess, by what means does the state derive the right to engage in behaviors from which the public is prohibited?
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March 19, 2013, 04:10:21 PM
 #122

The "end of government" would mean the end of peace, security, freedom, and all the infrastructure that has never worked without a governing authority.

Security is a service, like any other, and we do not need a monopoly provider of this service. Infrastructure, even today, is mostly privately built, contracted by the governments. The "end of government" would only mean the "end of monopoly provision of security."

Nope. Security is a status.
A service can then make sure a status of peace is maintained.
If you do not more or less centralize the power used for maintaining peace you get rivalry (because one mans peace is another mans chaos) and that means no security untill a top dog arises. This top dog would be basically the same thing as a government protecting you only it will be Sony or Nike or Microsoft. And you will live in a city protected by such a multinational and will be working in their (or their friends) factories.
This will happen because multinationals have enourmous power world wide (they provide goods, they provide jobs, they have capital, they have real estate and they have an established global organisation). Some multinationals already have more power than some nations.
You will exchange a broken democratic system for a slave-worker operated multinational where a human beings life is measured in how much money they can make for the company.

And all that because you want to float your peace on a market.


microsoft is so so so sooo sooo sooooooooo much more competent than the united states government. Ill take my chances.

Microsoft is competent at locking people into bloated software packages, overcharging for said packages, and keeping money for themselves. Microsoft is also incompetent at changing and innovating.

I'll take the government over Microsoft any day.
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March 19, 2013, 09:28:29 PM
 #123

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Government or Microsoft?

Exactly ladies and gents, you'll have a choice.

Freedom is choice, not enforcement.
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March 20, 2013, 12:12:09 AM
 #124

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Government or Microsoft?

Exactly ladies and gents, you'll have a choice.

Freedom is choice, not enforcement.
Choice does not guarantee freedom in any way.
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March 20, 2013, 12:14:25 AM
 #125

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Government or Microsoft?

Exactly ladies and gents, you'll have a choice.

Freedom is choice, not enforcement.
Choice does not guarantee freedom in any way.


I couldn't agree more, but it would be a much better option than what we have now.
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March 20, 2013, 02:01:06 AM
 #126

If I think Microsoft is competent I can go with them.  If not I can go with a competitor.

With the government, I have no choice.

Microsoft doesn't force me to be a customer.  They try their best to lock you in once you do, but it's still your choice and you can always opt out.  Not so with the government.

The government of course knows this, which is why it generally doesn't bother serving my needs as it's customer.  It knows it's got my money regardless so why make much of an effort?
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March 20, 2013, 03:23:06 AM
 #127

If I think Microsoft is competent I can go with them.  If not I can go with a competitor.

With the government, I have no choice.

Microsoft doesn't force me to be a customer.  They try their best to lock you in once you do, but it's still your choice and you can always opt out.  Not so with the government.

The government of course knows this, which is why it generally doesn't bother serving my needs as it's customer.  It knows it's got my money regardless so why make much of an effort?

In general, you can opt out of the government and choose a competitor. Try harder. Enough of everyone's excuses.
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March 20, 2013, 05:21:21 AM
 #128

If I think Microsoft is competent I can go with them.  If not I can go with a competitor.

With the government, I have no choice.

Microsoft doesn't force me to be a customer.  They try their best to lock you in once you do, but it's still your choice and you can always opt out.  Not so with the government.

The government of course knows this, which is why it generally doesn't bother serving my needs as it's customer.  It knows it's got my money regardless so why make much of an effort?

In general, you can opt out of the government and choose a competitor. Try harder. Enough of everyone's excuses.
Microsoft lets me opt out of their services and keep my computer. I'd like to opt out of the government's services and keep my house.

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March 20, 2013, 10:00:06 AM
 #129

If I think Microsoft is competent I can go with them.  If not I can go with a competitor.

With the government, I have no choice.

Microsoft doesn't force me to be a customer.  They try their best to lock you in once you do, but it's still your choice and you can always opt out.  Not so with the government.

The government of course knows this, which is why it generally doesn't bother serving my needs as it's customer.  It knows it's got my money regardless so why make much of an effort?

Nah, you don't really get it.
See, Microsoft will need you.
Microsoft will be cultivating its own people.
You won't want to leave microsoft because you will be genetically bound to it.
If you pay off your life-debt (the one you got when your parents decided to make a child) you may leave.
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March 20, 2013, 10:38:34 AM
 #130

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Unfortunately not all humans feel this way and they are a large enough group to form a society of their own with completely different sets of laws from your local laws which will prevent interoperability.

No one is arguing that the only way this society can function is if it is the only society. There is plenty of room on this planet for some people to try this particular experiment and for others to try other experiments.

Quote
Another striking brainfart on the part of the narrator is that he seems to think that the most profitable way for any company to operate is by getting the best possible deal for their customers.

if a companies offers are not competitive enough consumers will opt to use a different company. This forces companies to compete with each other on the basis of price and quality. Thus we see there is no dichotomy of giving the customer a good deal vs making more money, in a free market giving the customer a good deal is the only way (besides fraud) to make money.

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If that can be achieved by screwing over their customers than that will become a reality sooner or later.

in a free market why would it be in the interest of a company to screw over its customers? if we are talking about fraud, as an example if we are talking about a bank rading its customers accounts than this is a type of fraud that would be extremely rare absent limited liability. if you are talking about the company not defrauding but just taking unreasonable profits, than this company will quickly be crowded out of the market by entrepreneurs who are willing to work for smaller profits.

Quote
This naturally leads to stuff like treaties and in the end you get a multiheaded dragon not disimilar to our current military systems, but with the incentive of making money.

there is some truth to this but it is important to understand that david is not claiming to offer the keys to heaven, he is claiming to offer a system that would be better than what we have now and better than atleast most other proposed alternatives. Granted this market will never exist in the theoretical state of perfect competition but ANY amount of competition among service providers is better than a full on, out in the open, non apologetic, monopoly. Sometimes in life we are forced not to chose between good and bad or right and wrong, but bad and worse or wrong and wronger. The best case scenario is that everyone behave peacefully and we wouldn't need law, but since this is not realistic and we do need law, its *better* to have that law be provided by competing firms than by a monpolist.


Rep Thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=381041
If one can not confer upon another a right which he does not himself first possess, by what means does the state derive the right to engage in behaviors from which the public is prohibited?
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March 20, 2013, 10:42:49 AM
 #131

If I think Microsoft is competent I can go with them.  If not I can go with a competitor.

With the government, I have no choice.

Microsoft doesn't force me to be a customer.  They try their best to lock you in once you do, but it's still your choice and you can always opt out.  Not so with the government.

The government of course knows this, which is why it generally doesn't bother serving my needs as it's customer.  It knows it's got my money regardless so why make much of an effort?

is this lordhawkeye from youtube?

Rep Thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=381041
If one can not confer upon another a right which he does not himself first possess, by what means does the state derive the right to engage in behaviors from which the public is prohibited?
mobodick
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March 20, 2013, 11:34:40 AM
 #132

If I think Microsoft is competent I can go with them.  If not I can go with a competitor.

With the government, I have no choice.

Microsoft doesn't force me to be a customer.  They try their best to lock you in once you do, but it's still your choice and you can always opt out.  Not so with the government.

The government of course knows this, which is why it generally doesn't bother serving my needs as it's customer.  It knows it's got my money regardless so why make much of an effort?

Wrong.
Once microsoft IS your country you will have just as much or even less choice than you had before.
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March 20, 2013, 11:41:47 AM
 #133

Once microsoft IS your country you will have just as much or even less choice than you had before.

Microsoft country has started a little war in Middle East. It is not working. Solution is simple. Let's close this war and start it again, maybe it will work for us then.



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mobodick
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March 20, 2013, 11:48:03 AM
 #134

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Unfortunately not all humans feel this way and they are a large enough group to form a society of their own with completely different sets of laws from your local laws which will prevent interoperability.

No one is arguing that the only way this society can function is if it is the only society. There is plenty of room on this planet for some people to try this particular experiment and for others to try other experiments.

Well, these have been tried out in many forms in the past and it turns out humans are pretty bad at self government. People have to operate along certain psychological lines (because of our specificness) and the social dynamics of human groups prevent fairytails like the one in the video from actually occuring in stable form. It is just not how human groups operate on a psychological level.
Quote
Quote
Another striking brainfart on the part of the narrator is that he seems to think that the most profitable way for any company to operate is by getting the best possible deal for their customers.

if a companies offers are not competitive enough consumers will opt to use a different company. This forces companies to compete with each other on the basis of price and quality. Thus we see there is no dichotomy of giving the customer a good deal vs making more money, in a free market giving the customer a good deal is the only way (besides fraud) to make money.
But what if you signed a 10 year contract with that company to get their service cheaper? As if companies have no means to financially or emotionally bind people to them.. Just look outside and see how (large) companies operate on this relatively peacefull battlefield of an economy. Then imagine we give them the power to police themselfs.
You make the mistake that every human can choose how their life will be. It's just not that simple. Most people don't make a choice of living somewhere purely on rational choices. If it was like this then i bet there would be no 3rd world countries and almost everyone would live in the west. People don't get to chose most of the time so its better not to pretend they will have a real choice i a different situation. There are many (legal) ways for taking someones freedom and most of these are not obvious.
Quote
Quote
If that can be achieved by screwing over their customers than that will become a reality sooner or later.

in a free market why would it be in the interest of a company to screw over its customers? if we are talking about fraud, as an example if we are talking about a bank rading its customers accounts than this is a type of fraud that would be extremely rare absent limited liability. if you are talking about the company not defrauding but just taking unreasonable profits, than this company will quickly be crowded out of the market by entrepreneurs who are willing to work for smaller profits.
Even in a free market comanies can be too powerfull. You assume that competition will assure that noone will become dominant. But that is just a fantasy. There are many ways for companies to become bigger than others and a lot of those have nothing to do with actual economics. Important things like geographical conglomeration of these companies will have a strong effect. You get neighborhoods controlled by separate firms untill the whole city will be controlled by just one company. This is because the service becomes cheaper for the top dog so they can offer that service cheaper and people will go for it.
And even better, those pesky checkpoints between the neighbourhoods are gone! Hooray! But of course by then you have sold your soul to the biggest devil.
Security services are just another natural monopoly so the majority of people can always be persuaded to take the cheaper (more monopolistic) service.
Quote
Quote
This naturally leads to stuff like treaties and in the end you get a multiheaded dragon not disimilar to our current military systems, but with the incentive of making money.

there is some truth to this but it is important to understand that david is not claiming to offer the keys to heaven, he is claiming to offer a system that would be better than what we have now and better than atleast most other proposed alternatives. Granted this market will never exist in the theoretical state of perfect competition but ANY amount of competition among service providers is better than a full on, out in the open, non apologetic, monopoly. Sometimes in life we are forced not to chose between good and bad or right and wrong, but bad and worse or wrong and wronger. The best case scenario is that everyone behave peacefully and we wouldn't need law, but since this is not realistic and we do need law, its *better* to have that law be provided by competing firms than by a monpolist.


I claim that it would not be better than what we have now. In fact, i'd wager it will be far far worse.
Security should never be at a competing edge within a society. It will lead to escalations.
The whole idea of an open monopoly is so that everyone knows they should play nice or face the consequences.
It is litteraly the glue that holds our society together.
Competing security forces will give a lot of unrest and insecurity (the consequences of the separate laws of the companies will first have to be evaluated) and noone actually knows how their laws will hold up against other firms laws.
It would be bedlam. People would have no clue about their current and future situation. (what if the negociations don't go well and we get into a war with the other security company?).
Seriously, All he proposes is to take the big dominance fights right back to our streets. It's like microcredit of militance.
You'll get houses with tanks in front because they are secured by company A in a company B neighborhood.
It Would Be A Mess.
You don't seem to realize that competing over security means getting the other guy out when he doesn't want to leave. And if he doesn't want to leave you kill him. That process will not change with these new security structures.
Moreover, they all will have a different idea and you can be sure that many potential dictators will seek the leadership jobs in these companies just to prove how good they are.
And gain, companies just have one incentive. Money.
If they can use 'security' to keep you inside so you can work for the factory that pays underhand money to your local dictator then that is exactly what will happen.
You DO know there is decades of research gone into how to keep people complacent, don't you?
Why do you think north korea is acting like it is? It is one big security firm and the people cannot get out. Try competing with that.
The bizarre thing is that those people actually at some point had a choice about how their local security force acts.
In the situation mister friedman describes the firm with the largest 'security' force will have the better negociation position and their 'laws' will prevail. People will conglomerate around them BECAUSE the have more guns.
It is realy unthinkable that security firms, consisting of human beings with human emotions, will be able to compete in a civilized way. Security is about domination.
The dynamics that are proposed by the video are completely synthetic and need to be kept in check or they will not exist. But who is going to enforce these dynamics? Who will prevent a war between competing factions? Who will prevent a 3rd firm taking advantage of that situation and take over both competing territories so they can offer cheaper service to their sheep?
What if a certain firm has most of its customers in a region that has no resources? Will they go to war with other firms to secure resources? And how is that different from the current situation?
There are just too many things intertwined with this notion of security and however cute the proposal is, it is pretty amazingly naive.
The world, and people in general, just doesn't work like this guy thinks it does.
No ammount of free market will change human drives. His ideas only give you the temporal ilusion of things being ok. But this too will escalate in  dog fight and we will be in the same situation we are now only with governments replaced by private military corporations. Thank you mister friedman. :/
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March 20, 2013, 11:49:55 AM
 #135

Once microsoft IS your country you will have just as much or even less choice than you had before.

Microsoft country has started a little war in Middle East. It is not working. Solution is simple. Let's close this war and start it again, maybe it will work for us then.




Hey, all they have to do is bombard the country with Windows ME, right?
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March 20, 2013, 12:15:14 PM
 #136


In their current incarnation, yep, definitely.

2. When they finally adopt it, employees of the states finances will be much more transparent. This would hopefully force disbandment of corrupt parties and officials and growth of honest/transparent parties.

These bits.

Let me ask, what government would YOU like? The current style? or if you had the choice to design a 'people friendly' government, are you happy living under your current government? Or would you prefer a transparent government? And whatever you answer, try saying the same answer when your government decides to copy Cyprus.

Just to add, someone early in this thread said something along the lines of;

Quote
But they could just create extra private wallets

Indeed, and I hope so. But the major point is, that the 'initial' wallet that government officials get paid with would be identified and would be visible for ALL to observe whenever they wished. So any 'extra under the table' money can be observed.

Yes, they could have other wallets that they'd be using to be getting 'under the table bribes'. And here's how a system can stop that.

-  ONLY allow a political party to spend money from their designated wallet (or wallets) -
- IF things look dodgy, then ANYONE can go looking through the bitchain - This will be the fear into the corrupt to abide by the people.

And here's a little secret for you,

There are hardly NO Governments left (huh?? shock horror?!) - what exists is the global banking empire - your government is dead, it died a long time ago, what exists is a shell of a corpse that the global banking empire has crawled into and pretends it's your government.

Tell me about how yours, or any government, around the world has dealt with HSBC as a government SHOULD (according to constitution and international law). Tell me about how yours, or any government has dealt with the lies to invade Afghanistan and Iraq and Libyia, and everywhere else that's been invaded. Tell me about how your government protects its people as it raises taxes and cuts benefits whilst dolling out HUGE bonuses to bankers. Tell me about how your government continues to bring to light pedophile investigations into their administrations (US & UK, I havn't had time to look into other countries, but they were/are involved) over the decades. Tell me about your government making sure that voting is not twisted and cheated upon (especially in the US, I feel sorry for you guys and gals). Tell me about how the Greek and Cyprus governments protect their people as they steal their money for the EU and international banks. Tell me about how Iceland's government survived when their crisis hit the fan a few years back.

I could go on, but you get the picture.

Your governments are dead, or maybe there's a breath in there somewhere and we can kick out the parasite .. or we leave the infested corrupt body to die with the bankers as we move forward into a new era.

Cut the puppet strings and watch the infested puppet corpse drop.

I agree with your overall observations, but i feel it has become more of a forced symbiosis than being purely parasitic.
The banking system has enabled a lot of things in society and removing the parasite may kill the host.
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March 20, 2013, 03:05:48 PM
 #137

A completely philisophical thought experiment. You may believe this argument if you wish, but it is not based on forensic sciences. There are a lot of ifs used and no historical examples.
Right, no historical examples:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Icelandic_commonwealth
And since it's St. Patrick's day, let's not forget the Irish Tuatha: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/tuath

Historically, anarchies have been more stable, long-term, than States.

Thanks for this. Good reading.

We went through a period where it was briefly tough and now there are 1400 new billionaires in the world - maybe some capital was misallocated... --Kyle Bass
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March 20, 2013, 03:21:31 PM
 #138

http://www.cepr.net/index.php/blogs/beat-the-press/capitalism-steven-pearlstein-and-morality

I've been reading this article about double standards in US economy: lower classes are subjected to competing with china workforce, while higher classes, say doctors, bankers and lawyers are protected from that same competition. The problem is you see, that higher classes tend to bribe or somehow otherwise influence the politicians.

How to make the government resilient to this? One way is to only let wealthy folks into politics. But the newly chosen politicians (industrials, bankers, doctors) will stil protect their own interests and wealth. Put Warren Buffet for a president and you'll see some bailouts!

Other way around this is, of course to disband the government...

We went through a period where it was briefly tough and now there are 1400 new billionaires in the world - maybe some capital was misallocated... --Kyle Bass
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March 20, 2013, 06:26:47 PM
 #139

http://www.cepr.net/index.php/blogs/beat-the-press/capitalism-steven-pearlstein-and-morality

I've been reading this article about double standards in US economy: lower classes are subjected to competing with china workforce, while higher classes, say doctors, bankers and lawyers are protected from that same competition. The problem is you see, that higher classes tend to bribe or somehow otherwise influence the politicians.

How to make the government resilient to this? One way is to only let wealthy folks into politics. But the newly chosen politicians (industrials, bankers, doctors) will stil protect their own interests and wealth. Put Warren Buffet for a president and you'll see some bailouts!

Other way around this is, of course to disband the government...

Depends on what you want.  If you're wealthy, everything's peachy.  If you're not wealthy, it's not a lot of fun.  But as long as the wealthy can keep the not-wealthy in line by distracting them with political parties and celebrity news, we can keep this system going for the wealthy.

Even if one is to support government of any sort, nobody (except the rich, but I stopped counting them as people a while ago,) actually believes what we have now is satisfactory.

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March 20, 2013, 06:33:02 PM
 #140

http://www.cepr.net/index.php/blogs/beat-the-press/capitalism-steven-pearlstein-and-morality

I've been reading this article about double standards in US economy: lower classes are subjected to competing with china workforce, while higher classes, say doctors, bankers and lawyers are protected from that same competition. The problem is you see, that higher classes tend to bribe or somehow otherwise influence the politicians.

How to make the government resilient to this? One way is to only let wealthy folks into politics. But the newly chosen politicians (industrials, bankers, doctors) will stil protect their own interests and wealth. Put Warren Buffet for a president and you'll see some bailouts!

Other way around this is, of course to disband the government...

Depends on what you want.  If you're wealthy, everything's peachy.  If you're not wealthy, it's not a lot of fun.  But as long as the wealthy can keep the not-wealthy in line by distracting them with political parties and celebrity news, we can keep this system going for the wealthy.

Even if one is to support government of any sort, nobody (except the rich, but I stopped counting them as people a while ago,) actually believes what we have now is satisfactory.

Wealth is relative.
The wealthy of 100 years ago (even kings and emperors) didn't have the cool stuff we have now.
The thing is that it never gets satisfactory.
We are programmed to eat the cake and so we can't have it.
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