Betsoft Gamings Questionable Behavior, How Should Bitcoin Casinos Respond?

[TwitchySeal]

Recently a player at Betcoin appeared to hit a jackpot worth over 500BTC and did not get paid.  The Scam Accusation Thread can be found HERE

Since starting the thread,  information about Betsoft Gaming has been brought to the public's attention that should be taken very seriously.  It seems very possible that many of the biggest progressive Jackpots (worth thousands of Bitcoin) are unwinnable despite 1-2% of each bet increasing its respective fund.

When a Betcoin.ag user met all qualifications for the jackpot, he was given multiple excuses for not being paid that contradicted the paytable.  Without notice or explanation, Betsoft changed the rules days later.

The owner of casinolistings.com has been tracking Betsoft progressives on Bodog.com, found that smaller jackpots (denomination independent) for a few hundred USD were hitting regularly while other denominations were never hit but continue to grow.  

Many smaller casinos (like Betcoin.ag) have progressive Jackpots advertised worth over 5,000 BTC in total, and have ignored requests to prove these funds are in tact.
 
Betsoft surrendered it's Class 1 license from the reputable Alderny jurisdiction in summer 2014 after being investigated.

Several major affiliate sites have issued warnings to their players.  I think we should be questioning any site that chooses to continue to offer these games.  In this un/barely-regulated environment, if players don't demand to be treated fairly, they shouldn't expect to be treated fairly.  Unregulated doesn't mean we have to accept unethical.

https://www.casinolistings.com/news/2016/06/warning-avoid-all-betsoft-slots-and-casino-games  <---This is the site that has collected jackpot data.

http://www.latestcasinobonuses.com/article/warning-betsoft-progressives-problem

http://www.gpwa.org/forum/casinolistings-issues-betsoft-gaming-warning-227986.html
  
http://vegasclick.com/online/betsoft-jackpot-issue
 
http://www.casinomeister.com/forums/showthread.php?t=71002



I encourage all players to contact their favorite Bitcoin Casinos directly and ask them how these issues will affect their relationship with Betsoft gaming and report back.  I will copy any responses and add them to this OP.

I encourage all sites to respond to this thread directly.

Regarding situation with Betsoft games - till further investigation we disabled all games with jackpots from our casino section.
We are already in negotiation with all parties involved and looking forward for more details.

Betsoft Progressive Slots:
1. Good Girl Bad Girl
2. At the Copa
3. Greedy Goblins
4. Mr. Vegas
5. Slot Angels
6. The Glam Life
7. Tycoons
8. The Treasure Room


Bitcoin Casinos with Betsoft Progressive Jackpot Slots
4grinz.com
7bitcasino.com
betchain.com
betchan.com
betcoin.ag
bitcasino.io - Betsoft Jackpot Games Disabled, Investigation Underway
bitcoin penguin
bitstarz
btc casino
cloudbet
fortune jack
limoplay
mbit casino
oshi
sportsbet.io - Betsoft Jackpot Games Disabled, Investigation Underway
vegascasino.io - Betsoft Jackpot Games Disabled, Investigation Underway

[philiveyjr]

So if I get this right, betsoft is the service which provides the gaming platform to those sites right ? How was the user able to win the jackpot if it was unwinnable in the first case ?

[Stunna]

Our response is continuing to build our provably fair casino which features games coded and designed from scratch. Larger players in bitcoin gambling need to step up and deliver better experiences rather than run garbage real money software and the players need to demand more. For example, players should demand that betcoin.ag proves ownership of 5000 BTC before trying their jackpot games. It's also pathetic that all these sites advertise "provably fair" when they have one provably fair game and then run that sort of software.

Ultimately it is up to the players to be responsible given how many safe options there are to choose from.

[TwitchySeal]

So if I get this right, betsoft is the service which provides the gaming platform to those sites right ?

Betsoft provides the software.

Casinos usually offer many different software providers (Endorphina, Amatic, GameArt for example)

It's really just one big affiliate tree, the software provider is at the top.

 SoftwareProviders--->Casino (Sites)--->Affiliate Sites----Player

How was the user able to win the jackpot if it was unwinnable in the first case ?

I posted some cliffs here:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1236667.msg15376629#msg15376629

Our response is continuing to build our provably fair casino which features games coded and designed from scratch. Larger players in bitcoin gambling need to step up and deliver better experiences rather than run garbage real money software and the players need to demand more. For example, players should demand that betcoin.ag proves ownership of 5000 BTC before trying their jackpot games. It's also pathetic that all these sites advertise "provably fair" when they have one provably fair game and then run that sort of software.

Ultimately it is up to the players to be responsible given how many safe options there are to choose from.

Betsoft Gaming is the polar opposite of a site like PrimeDice.
It literally couldn't not be any less transparent is probably nothing.
But it's also one of, if not the biggest software provider for Bitcoin Casinos. wtf?

I recently made a post criticizing Betsoft on Betcoin.ag forums.  


Here's my comment:

Betsoft and Endorphina games would never get approved by any major regulator because they don't meet some of the most basic regulations. (posting rtp, independant reels, flashing higher paying symbols at a higher rate than they actually hit)
They are as transparent as a Brick Wall.
The more legit providers you find on the floor in ac or vegas like netent won't provide for a site that is completely unregulated site or they would lose their license in multiple jurisdictions (like NJ and NV) which translates to a shitload of money.

Here's the chat transcript with Betcoin support after it vanished/I reposted it a bunch of times:

(10:15:47)   twitchyseal: hey andrew, you know anything about my vanishing post?
(10:17:21)   Betcoin Andrew: Our casino providers do an excellent job and are used by the top online casinos. We cannot have those type of comments about them in the forum as they are constantly reviewing our website.
(10:17:26)   *** Betcoin Andrew left the chat ***
(10:17:36)   *** twitchyseal has rated the chat Bad ***
(10:17:44)   twitchyseal: are you deleting them?
(10:18:16)   *** Betcoin Andrew joined the chat ***
(10:18:23)   Betcoin Andrew: An intern is. Why post the same thing 10 times?
(10:18:40)   twitchyseal: because it kept vanishing and i think its useful info
(10:18:45)   twitchyseal: was any of it inaccurate?
(10:18:52)   Betcoin Andrew: twitchy your time is valuable man I have been telling you this for over a year.
(10:18:58)   twitchyseal: i know
(10:19:03)   twitchyseal: im glad you appreciate that
(10:19:19)   Betcoin Andrew: You should man.
(10:19:21)   twitchyseal: im glad you dont take things personal, im just being honest
(10:19:34)   twitchyseal: so is there something false about my statement?
(10:19:40)   Betcoin Andrew: It may not be much to you, but posting that 10 times and having it deleted 10 times is a waste of time.
(10:19:47)   Betcoin Andrew: Certainly you understand that right?
(10:19:57)   twitchyseal: agree, so you won't delete it anymore?
(10:20:09)   Betcoin Andrew: Wow
(10:20:20)   Betcoin Andrew: Alright I have some work to do. My time is very valuable.
(10:20:25)   *** Betcoin Andrew left the chat **

[DarkStar_]

Bitcoin Casinos with Betsoft Progressive Jackpot Slots
Incomplete
4grinz.com
7bitcasino.com
betchain.com
betchan.com
betcoin.ag
bitcasino.io
bitcoin penguin
bitstarz
btc casino
cloudbet
fortune jack
limoplay
mbit casino
oshi
sportsbet.io
vegas casino


Any suggestions or volunteers to help organize this stuff is appreciated.

Just wanted to point out that Sportsbet.io, Vegascasino.io and Bitcasino.io are all operated by the same company at CoinGaming.io. An opinion from either of those sites should suffice, since they are all owned by the same company. I doubt they would split on something like that. Anyway, I will send mBitCasino an email later and see what they think. I'll post their response once I get it. My guess for cloudbet is that they won't care, since withdraws take forever and they don't seem to care about that either.

[TwitchySeal]

Bitcoin Casinos with Betsoft Progressive Jackpot Slots
Incomplete
4grinz.com
7bitcasino.com
betchain.com
betchan.com
betcoin.ag
bitcasino.io
bitcoin penguin
bitstarz
btc casino
cloudbet
fortune jack
limoplay
mbit casino
oshi
sportsbet.io
vegas casino


Any suggestions or volunteers to help organize this stuff is appreciated.

Just wanted to point out that Sportsbet.io, Vegascasino.io and Bitcasino.io are all operated by the same company at CoinGaming.io. An opinion from either of those sites should suffice, since they are all owned by the same company. I doubt they would split on something like that. Anyway, I will send mBitCasino an email later and see what they think. I'll post their response once I get it. My guess for cloudbet is that they won't care, since withdraws take forever and they don't seem to care about that either.

Cool, good work.

Got a reply from sportsbet

Hey TwitchySeal,

We will contact our platform provider CoinGaming and get a reply asap about this issue. Thanks for bringing it to our attention.

I thought mBitCasino was also the same CoinGaming, but now they look different I guess.

[joksim299]

Bitcoin Casinos with Betsoft Progressive Jackpot Slots
Incomplete
4grinz.com
7bitcasino.com
betchain.com
betchan.com
betcoin.ag
bitcasino.io
bitcoin penguin
bitstarz
btc casino
cloudbet
fortune jack
limoplay
mbit casino
oshi
sportsbet.io
vegas casino


Any suggestions or volunteers to help organize this stuff is appreciated.

Just wanted to point out that Sportsbet.io, Vegascasino.io and Bitcasino.io are all operated by the same company at CoinGaming.io. An opinion from either of those sites should suffice, since they are all owned by the same company. I doubt they would split on something like that. Anyway, I will send mBitCasino an email later and see what they think. I'll post their response once I get it. My guess for cloudbet is that they won't care, since withdraws take forever and they don't seem to care about that either.

Cool, good work.

Got a reply from sportsbet

Hey TwitchySeal,

We will contact our platform provider CoinGaming and get a reply asap about this issue. Thanks for bringing it to our attention.

I thought mBitCasino was also the same CoinGaming, but now they look different I guess.

Bitcasino was running pirated games in the past, Vegascasino.io using pirated Novomatic games and most probably others.
Last time I checked Bitcasino had licence from Montenegro and after Askgamblers blacklisted them they shared licence with mBitCasino and now they are listed along with sportbets.io and owner is mBetSolutions N.V. https://validator.curacao-egaming.com/3c743911-e89d-4a2f-a803-df264761553c
 

[Daffadile]

I knew they won't pay think about it 1-2% added to the pot for every bet. What is the house edge ? If it is less than 2% They will actually be losing money so this doesn't even add up. I think other casinos should warn us of this kind of thing and shun them out.

[AcoinL.L.C]

Our response is continuing to build our provably fair casino which features games coded and designed from scratch. Larger players in bitcoin gambling need to step up and deliver better experiences rather than run garbage real money software and the players need to demand more. For example, players should demand that betcoin.ag proves ownership of 5000 BTC before trying their jackpot games. It's also pathetic that all these sites advertise "provably fair" when they have one provably fair game and then run that sort of software.

Ultimately it is up to the players to be responsible given how many safe options there are to choose from.

I agree with Stunna on this. I don't get why people choose to play on these junky games that have such high house edges. Do people not realize they are playing on what is usually a house edge between 2-5%? All of those casinos are the same.. And I wouldn't even call any of those sites actual casinos. They are nothing more than affiliates for the gaming providers, they don't own their own software, their own licenses, and they don't control their own bankroll (as far as I am aware). All of those sites also have questionable bonus tactics where they refuse to payout when people actually win with the bonuses.

[TwitchySeal]

-snip-
I don't get why people choose to play on these junky games that have such high house edges.
-snip-

It's the aggressive affiliate model they all use.

"Tell everyone how awesome we are and you get 20-40% of their losses for life"

Google Bitcoin Casino for thousands of shitty affiliate sites that rank casinos on their page by nothing other than which sites are giving them the biggest cut.  (there are a few that do put admirable effort into protecting the player, but they are rare)

House edge is not even available for the majority of games.

[JJRS]

Has anyone noticed casinolistings has been down for the past 2 days? Coincidence or is someone trying to prevent people reading the investigation??

[Joel_Jantsen]

I tell you,its all operated by a big scam organisation calling themselves as "BTC Agency".This one dude who runs sportsbet.io goes by the name Anton BTC Agency on skype.His Skype handle : anton.coingaming

Hi,
Let me know if you are interested and I will give you more details.
It would be more comfortable for me to chat via Skype.
My Skype username is anton.coingaming

Whats common between all of VegasCasino/Sportsbet/bitcasino ? The raffles they arrange which are completely shit.Fake means to advertise and get people to use the site.When questioned about the provable fairness of these lotteries ,this is what they replied,

Hey guys,

We are not against adding provably fair system into our lottery platform, if it will close question of our honesty. I will discuss with developers already in the morning, but I'm sure it will take some time from them. Will keep you updated here.
We will also add more raffles already tomorrow.

And I already answered here that we are not against adding additional system to prove our honestly, there is nothing to hide for us. It's just taking time for developers and while we just opened a new sportsbook, there are plenty of tasks for them already.

Been 10 days ,still no provable fair lotteries found.

[TwitchySeal]

Whats common between all of VegasCasino/Sportsbet/bitcasino ? The raffles they arrange which are completely shit.Fake means to advertise and get people to use the site.

You should post evidence, I'm not sure exactly what you're saying is going on and can't really find any evidence, but I didn't look too hard tbh.

They did disable all Betsoft Jackpot Games though. So that's good.

(I checked, Vegas, Sportsbet and Bitcasino)

Regarding situation with Betsoft games - till further investigation we disabled all games with jackpots from our casino section.
We are already in negotiation with all parties involved and looking forward for more details.

 

[Daffadile]

Casinos always male crappy excuses. Either you cheated or didn't place the right bet or something else that is trivial and meaningless. We must name and shame this. Seriously if something is not done soon we will have an epidemic like HYIP, think about if it gets that bad, gambling will be destroyed. 

[katerniko1]

well this is only thing why i love real casino, if i win a fucking jackpot i will be paid no matter what, but i see bitcoin online casinos wont and that is sad, to see people win legal jackpot and not getting paid... very very sad to see
regards.
-Katerniko1

[CL-Ed]

Has anyone noticed casinolistings has been down for the past 2 days? Coincidence or is someone trying to prevent people reading the investigation??

A few people asked me that but it was just unfortunate timing I'm afraid (CL is my site). Our former host pulled the rug out from under all their customers without any notice whatsoever. At one stage we were looking at losing 12 months worth of data but thankfully were able to recover it around 3 days later. We're back and running fine now.

Thanks for keeping on this TwitchySeal. Maintain the rage.

[casinobitco]

Folks...

Solid lesson here:  Provably Fair, or don't play at all.

[casinobitco]

-snip-
I don't get why people choose to play on these junky games that have such high house edges.
-snip-

It's the aggressive affiliate model they all use.

"Tell everyone how awesome we are and you get 20-40% of their losses for life"

Google Bitcoin Casino for thousands of shitty affiliate sites that rank casinos on their page by nothing other than which sites are giving them the biggest cut.  (there are a few that do put admirable effort into protecting the player, but they are rare)

House edge is not even available for the majority of games.

Twitchy...  There must be some seriously ill-informed affiliates out there, we are giving out 0.3% of all HANDLE, not losses... Imagine the payback there!
Source: https://bitcoinrush.io/affiliates

[RHavar]

Many smaller casinos (like Betcoin.ag) have progressive Jackpots advertised worth over 5,000 BTC in total, and have ignored requests to prove these funds are in tact.
 

Two things that have always made me run away from casinos is giant jackpots (which almost certainly don't exist, and if they do, not get paid out) and shady "bonuses" or "free X"  (e.g deposit bonus) which are just traps that you're better off not claiming

[RHavar]

-snip-
I don't get why people choose to play on these junky games that have such high house edges.
-snip-

It's the aggressive affiliate model they all use.

"Tell everyone how awesome we are and you get 20-40% of their losses for life"

Google Bitcoin Casino for thousands of shitty affiliate sites that rank casinos on their page by nothing other than which sites are giving them the biggest cut.  (there are a few that do put admirable effort into protecting the player, but they are rare)

House edge is not even available for the majority of games.

Twitchy...  There must be some seriously ill-informed affiliates out there, we are giving out 0.3% of all HANDLE, not losses... Imagine the payback there!
Source: https://bitcoinrush.io/affiliates

lol, seriously? You know what's worse than not showing the house edge? Misrepresenting it. Last year you seemed to imply you were going to change the misleading marketing for you 1% rake game from "zero house edge", but nope.  Hint: If you're skimming 1% on each game, it's not really fair to call it 0 edge....

And secondly, based on my visceral reactions to the site layout -- I suspect an affiliate would make more promoting a site even if it gave a tenth the commission..

Folks...

Solid lesson here:  Provably Fair, or don't play at all.

Does that also apply to your namesake game, or just other peoples?