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Author Topic: If Anarchy can work, how come there are no historical records of it working?  (Read 15684 times)
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June 07, 2013, 01:21:08 PM
 #321

The closest thing you can get to anarchy is if you distribute sovereign power only to small localities and let individual cultures govern themselves.

The living forces of evil are to be found in the living ideals of today.
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June 07, 2013, 01:26:42 PM
 #322


Capitalism- an historical era where the means of production and products belonged exclusively to moneyed entrepreneurs, state officials, and speculators due to state protection of legal claims to privateized property.
There, does that not cover both communism and capitalism as they have always existed?

Well, of course not, but at least it's a start.  What you seem to be railing against could be either corporatism (i.e. fascism) or merchantilism, or both; but it's certainly not capitalism in it's natural form.  Both of those could be considered corrupted versions of capitalism, so I can see the confusion, but one should be willing to start with first principles. 

The first principle is this...

Who owns you?  Is there anyone who has a greater claim upon your body, thus your life, then yourself?  If we cannot agree that I own myself and that you own yourself, as nominally free adults, then we can't proceed.


My body is an object, it is owned by me. The systemic, unidealized process of selling my labor for a wage or other price is not dissimilar to slavery. I cannot sell my labor for a fair price, because my labor cannot be returned to me. I can be coerced into selling my labor by circumstances beyond my control, namely the stigma of joblessness, the risk of homelessness and starvation, the boot of the cop, the irs agent and the soldier.
Who has a claim on my labor? Every living person has a fraction of a claim as long as they don't put me on their books as an employee.
Mutual aid, not greed or euphamisms for it drive the evolution of the world. Capitalism is dying.
Ive read and studied The Wealth of Nations. These ideologies are not new to me.
I prefer Murray Bookchin. Yall ought not patronize so hard.

haven't read Bookchin, and will remedy it. Didn't intend to be patronizing. Sorry if I came off that way. I'm a pedant Smiley

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Capitalism is the crisis.


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June 07, 2013, 01:49:56 PM
 #323


Capitalism- an historical era where the means of production and products belonged exclusively to moneyed entrepreneurs, state officials, and speculators due to state protection of legal claims to privateized property.
There, does that not cover both communism and capitalism as they have always existed?

Well, of course not, but at least it's a start.  What you seem to be railing against could be either corporatism (i.e. fascism) or merchantilism, or both; but it's certainly not capitalism in it's natural form.  Both of those could be considered corrupted versions of capitalism, so I can see the confusion, but one should be willing to start with first principles. 

The first principle is this...

Who owns you?  Is there anyone who has a greater claim upon your body, thus your life, then yourself?  If we cannot agree that I own myself and that you own yourself, as nominally free adults, then we can't proceed.


My body is an object, it is owned by me. The systemic, unidealized process of selling my labor for a wage or other price is not dissimilar to slavery. I cannot sell my labor for a fair price, because my labor cannot be returned to me. I can be coerced into selling my labor by circumstances beyond my control, namely the stigma of joblessness, the risk of homelessness and starvation, the boot of the cop, the irs agent and the soldier.
Who has a claim on my labor? Every living person has a fraction of a claim as long as they don't put me on their books as an employee.
Mutual aid, not greed or euphamisms for it drive the evolution of the world. Capitalism is dying.
Ive read and studied The Wealth of Nations. These ideologies are not new to me.
I prefer Murray Bookchin. Yall ought not patronize so hard.

haven't read Bookchin, and will remedy it. Didn't intend to be patronizing. Sorry if I came off that way. I'm a pedant Smiley
I shouldn't have said y'all..
Mainly talking about MoonShadow with the whatever happened one lesson stuff.
As far as I can tell the only big difference between you and I, is a semantic one. You see utlility in communicating using what I consider to be a total misnomer, capitalism.
Bookchin mainly summarizes other anarchist writers. I couldn't reccomend his works more.
Here's a nugget:
Quote
Captalism devours us. At the molecular level of everday life, it changes us for the worse, and it compels people to make extremely unsavoury rationalisations for why they believe things they know -or at least they once knew -are false and for doing things that are trivialising and dehumanising.

Wit all my solidarities,
-ktttn
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June 07, 2013, 01:58:24 PM
 #324

Capitalism is evil because it has no built-in limit, it keeps eating and eating, destroying people as a rule. The goal never gets close.
On the other hand, if the goal of trade is not limitless private affluence, but mutual aid and enrichment, we have a much less greviously disparate global and local culture.

Wit all my solidarities,
-ktttn
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June 07, 2013, 02:48:07 PM
 #325

My body is an object, it is owned by me. The systemic, unidealized process of selling my labor for a wage or other price is not dissimilar to slavery. I cannot sell my labor for a fair price, because my labor cannot be returned to me. I can be coerced into selling my labor by circumstances beyond my control, namely the stigma of joblessness, the risk of homelessness and starvation, the boot of the cop, the IRS agent and the soldier.
Who has a claim on my labor? Every living person has a fraction of a claim as long as they don't put me on their books as an employee.
Mutual aid, not greed or euphemisms for it drive the evolution of the world.
This is a beautiful and generous sentiment.
To do that which is meaningful for many is aspirational and laudable.
One who can make a contribution to every living person is rare and precious.

Capitalism is dying.
One of the risks of the philosophical is that we can lose touch with the broad popular usage of words to which we may ascribe a narrow meaning and purpose.
In the broad sense, capitalism is dying, it is killing, it is wickedness, greed, corruption, selfishness, jealousy and all manner of other wrongs.
In the narrow sense the philosopher might say those were not capitalism, but greed and the corruption inherent in creating and empowering the engine of a government useful for turning against our fellows and coercing what is theirs for our benefit.
http://bastiat.org/en/the_law.html
That capitalism instead is the pure and noble voluntary exchange for mutual benefit which depends on having some decision authority (capitalism's ownership) over what we each might exchange.  To seek a higher mutual affluence through trade.
But this philosopher can only speak with other philosophers who use the same definitions, and those are likely already in agreement about much.
And so broad labels often do not serve us well, and when we use them to attack an argument we unwittingly often engage in making straw men.

We also forget why we argue at all, which is to benefit our common understandings, rather than to defeat a foe.  I suspect the only foes I can ever address are the wrong ideas I myself hold.  For all I've written, I may never have convinced anyone else of anything.  I may like to think I am helping someone else in understanding something, but in honesty admit that is more likely vanity.

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June 07, 2013, 03:54:08 PM
 #326


Who owns you? 


My body is an object, it is owned by me.


So we do agree on this basic root principle.  We are already getting somewhere.

I'll address the next princple after addressing your other statements...

Quote
The systemic, unidealized process of selling my labor for a wage or other price is not dissimilar to slavery. I cannot sell my labor for a fair price, because my labor cannot be returned to me.


I don't disagree, but nor do I agree completely.  My issue with the above statement is that what is a 'fair' price is a matter of perspectives, but what is the market price is independent of such perspectives. 

Quote

 I can be coerced into selling my labor by circumstances beyond my control, namely the stigma of joblessness, the risk of homelessness and starvation, the boot of the cop, the irs agent and the soldier.

Again, we don't disagree on the substance, but on the causes.  While the above is true enough, it's not the fault of the employer that you cannot get a better wage than what he chooses to offer for his work. nor are the circumsatances that compell you to seek employment his responsibility, so long as he is not conspiring with those agensts of the state to do so, in which case we are talking about fascism again.

Quote
Who has a claim on my labor? Every living person has a fraction of a claim as long as they don't put me on their books as an employee.


And why is that, if you were to choose to reject such claims?  If you choose to honor such claims, or honor an ideology that respects such claims, this cannot be slavery since it's voluntary on your part.  What about those who have a different ideology than yours?  Is is then acceptable to force your claims upon their person?

Quote
Mutual aid, not greed or euphamisms for it drive the evolution of the world. Capitalism is dying.

What you call capitalism is, hopefully, dying.  For myself and my family, I wish no part of it.  You project your biases upon those you percieve as being in opposition to your ideal worldview, without honestly or accurately considering why there is oppossition at all.  While it's possible that we are all deluded or hopelessly indoctrinated like you seem to assume, we are certainly not all ignorant nor stupid.  What would that foretell of the likely future successes of your ideology, be it correct or not, if you cannot change the minds of a few moderately to well educated people on an internet forum?  Simply decrying our perspectives as faulty, particularly lacking a rational argument as to why, is unlikely to do more than waste a lot of time.  And the quote you provided from Bookchin is not an arguement, it's an opinion.

Quote
Ive read and studied The Wealth of Nations. These ideologies are not new to me.
I prefer Murray Bookchin. Yall ought not patronize so hard.

You should not project so hard.  Personally, I don't consider Adam Smith to be the best author in this realm.  His language is difficult to read, which inhibits comprehension; and his was mostly arguing against mercantilism, not so much in favor of capitalism.  In some sense, he was arguing about national policies, and thus was arguing in favor of a soft facism.  Adam Smith was a great (classic) liberal, but he was still stuck in the idea that nation-states are necessary for such ideas as he advocated. 

Now back to the regularly scheduled discussion...

If you agree that your body belongs to yourself, do you agree that my body belongs to me?  If so, then do you agree that my life also belongs to me, since I can't have one without the other?

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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June 07, 2013, 04:52:48 PM
 #327

I don't intend to accept that we are at an impasse or are basically incompatable.

Quote from: ktttn
The systemic, unidealized process of selling my labor for a wage or other price is not dissimilar to slavery. I cannot sell my labor for a fair price, because my labor cannot be returned to me.

I don't disagree, but nor do I agree completely.  My issue with the above statement is that what is a 'fair' price is a matter of perspectives, but what is the market price is independent of such perspectives.  

Market price for labor is how slavery works.
There is no such thing as a fair price, because the human slave trade determines the market price from the most abject slavery to the mcdonalds employee to the middle management and way on up to the CEO. A one way "market" is not a market. I cannot buy back my labor.

Quote from: MoonShadow
Quote
I can be coerced into selling my labor by circumstances beyond my control, namely the stigma of joblessness, the risk of homelessness and starvation, the boot of the cop, the irs agent and the soldier.

 Again, we don't disagree on the substance, but on the causes.  While the above is true enough, it's not the fault of the employer that you cannot get a better wage than what he chooses to offer for his work. nor are the circumsatances that compell you to seek employment his responsibility, so long as he is not conspiring with those agensts of the state to do so, in which case we are talking about fascism again.

Overlapping happens.
The offer is coercive.
The deal is a threat.
The wanting of wages is the motivation toward selling yourself into the modified slavery of employmemt.

Quote from: MoonShadow
Quote
Who has a claim on my labor? Every living person has a fraction of a claim as long as they don't put me on their books as an employee.

And why is that, if you were to choose to reject such claims?  If you choose to honor such claims, or honor an ideology that respects such claims, this cannot be slavery since it's voluntary on your part.  What about those who have a different ideology than yours?  Is is then acceptable to force your claims upon their person?

"Voluntary" slavery is real. Employment all too often restricts personal development.

Quote from: MoonShadow
Quote
Mutual aid, not greed or euphamlisms for it drive the evolution of the world. Capitalism is dying.

What you call capitalism is, hopefully, dying.  For myself and my family, I wish no part of it.  You project your biases upon those you percieve as being in opposition to your ideal worldview, without honestly or accurately considering why there is oppossition at all.  While it's possible that we are all deluded or hopelessly indoctrinated like you seem to assume, we are certainly not all ignorant nor stupid.  What would that foretell of the likely future successes of your ideology, be it correct or not, if you cannot change the minds of a few moderately to well educated people on an internet forum?  Simply decrying our perspectives as faulty, particularly lacking a rational argument as to why, is unlikely to do more than waste a lot of time.  And the quote you provided from Bookchin is not an arguement, it's an opinion.

Indoctrinated, doubtlessly. Hopelessly? Hopefully not.
Well put opinions make for persuasive arguments.

Quote from: MoonShadow
Now back to the regularly scheduled discussion...

If you agree that your body belongs to yourself, do you agree that my body belongs to me?  If so, then do you agree that my life also belongs to me, since I can't have one without the other?

Your labor is not yours to sell, its everyone else's inevitably and can't be fairly sold. Why not work for free? Your will is not up for purchase. Your life is yours, but selling it is suicide.
Do you respect a world commiting suicide? (Skinny Puppy is awesome)

Wit all my solidarities,
-ktttn
Ever see a gutterpunk spanging for cryptocoins?
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June 07, 2013, 05:10:06 PM
 #328

if space ships can really go to space, how come there is no historical record of them prior to 1957?

if gravity can work, how come there is no historical records of it working prior to 1687?



ie


maybe some new stuff hasn't been done yet, but can be done

if we try

maybe we could try a world without central authority and tyranny and killing each other



man i sound like a hippie, oh well, embrace your inner hippie and think about new ideas

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MoonShadow
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June 08, 2013, 03:23:38 AM
 #329

I don't intend to accept that we are at an impasse or are basically incompatable.

Quote from: ktttn
The systemic, unidealized process of selling my labor for a wage or other price is not dissimilar to slavery. I cannot sell my labor for a fair price, because my labor cannot be returned to me.

I don't disagree, but nor do I agree completely.  My issue with the above statement is that what is a 'fair' price is a matter of perspectives, but what is the market price is independent of such perspectives.  

Market price for labor is how slavery works.
There is no such thing as a fair price, because the human slave trade determines the market price from the most abject slavery to the mcdonalds employee to the middle management and way on up to the CEO. A one way "market" is not a market. I cannot buy back my labor.


Lovely opinion.  Did you have an argument?

Quote

Quote from: MoonShadow
Quote
I can be coerced into selling my labor by circumstances beyond my control, namely the stigma of joblessness, the risk of homelessness and starvation, the boot of the cop, the irs agent and the soldier.

 Again, we don't disagree on the substance, but on the causes.  While the above is true enough, it's not the fault of the employer that you cannot get a better wage than what he chooses to offer for his work. nor are the circumsatances that compell you to seek employment his responsibility, so long as he is not conspiring with those agensts of the state to do so, in which case we are talking about fascism again.

Overlapping happens.
The offer is coercive.
The deal is a threat.
The wanting of wages is the motivation toward selling yourself into the modified slavery of employmemt.

Says you.  Argument?

Quote
Quote from: MoonShadow
Quote
Who has a claim on my labor? Every living person has a fraction of a claim as long as they don't put me on their books as an employee.

And why is that, if you were to choose to reject such claims?  If you choose to honor such claims, or honor an ideology that respects such claims, this cannot be slavery since it's voluntary on your part.  What about those who have a different ideology than yours?  Is is then acceptable to force your claims upon their person?

"Voluntary" slavery is real. Employment all too often restricts personal development.


By my understanding of the term, slavery implies involuntary servitude.

Quote
Quote from: MoonShadow
Quote
Mutual aid, not greed or euphamlisms for it drive the evolution of the world. Capitalism is dying.

What you call capitalism is, hopefully, dying.  For myself and my family, I wish no part of it.  You project your biases upon those you percieve as being in opposition to your ideal worldview, without honestly or accurately considering why there is oppossition at all.  While it's possible that we are all deluded or hopelessly indoctrinated like you seem to assume, we are certainly not all ignorant nor stupid.  What would that foretell of the likely future successes of your ideology, be it correct or not, if you cannot change the minds of a few moderately to well educated people on an internet forum?  Simply decrying our perspectives as faulty, particularly lacking a rational argument as to why, is unlikely to do more than waste a lot of time.  And the quote you provided from Bookchin is not an arguement, it's an opinion.

Indoctrinated, doubtlessly. Hopelessly? Hopefully not.
Well put opinions make for persuasive arguments.


You think that highly of your own opinion, do you?

Maybe for some people, but some people are easily influenced.  I'm not one of those people.  I require some convinceing, and you are falling down on the job.

Quote
Quote from: MoonShadow
Now back to the regularly scheduled discussion...

If you agree that your body belongs to yourself, do you agree that my body belongs to me?  If so, then do you agree that my life also belongs to me, since I can't have one without the other?

Your labor is not yours to sell, its everyone else's inevitably and can't be fairly sold
. Why not work for free? Your will is not up for purchase.



I disagree, my labor is as much to sell as anything else of my property.  If you disagree, make an argument.

Quote
Your life is yours, but selling it is suicide.


So what if it is?  If my life is mine, I have the right to dispose of it as I see fit, including to waste or destroy it.  And no one else has the right to trump my decision.

Quote
Do you respect a world commiting suicide? (Skinny Puppy is awesome)

Are you a person or a random word bot?

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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June 08, 2013, 03:41:32 AM
 #330

Do you respect a world commiting suicide? (Skinny Puppy is awesome)

Are you a person or a random word bot?

If she's a person, she's one with no filter from brain to hands.

Quote from: Skinny Puppy - Deep Down Trauma Hounds
it's purity that those with no rights display the right to have no life do have respect they must accept a world committing suicide

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June 08, 2013, 03:55:39 AM
 #331

I don't intend to accept that we are at an impasse or are basically incompatable.

Quote from: ktttn
The systemic, unidealized process of selling my labor for a wage or other price is not dissimilar to slavery. I cannot sell my labor for a fair price, because my labor cannot be returned to me.

I don't disagree, but nor do I agree completely.  My issue with the above statement is that what is a 'fair' price is a matter of perspectives, but what is the market price is independent of such perspectives.  

Market price for labor is how slavery works.
There is no such thing as a fair price, because the human slave trade determines the market price from the most abject slavery to the mcdonalds employee to the middle management and way on up to the CEO. A one way "market" is not a market. I cannot buy back my labor.


Lovely opinion.  Did you have an argument?

Quote

Quote from: MoonShadow
Quote
I can be coerced into selling my labor by circumstances beyond my control, namely the stigma of joblessness, the risk of homelessness and starvation, the boot of the cop, the irs agent and the soldier.

 Again, we don't disagree on the substance, but on the causes.  While the above is true enough, it's not the fault of the employer that you cannot get a better wage than what he chooses to offer for his work. nor are the circumsatances that compell you to seek employment his responsibility, so long as he is not conspiring with those agensts of the state to do so, in which case we are talking about fascism again.

Overlapping happens.
The offer is coercive.
The deal is a threat.
The wanting of wages is the motivation toward selling yourself into the modified slavery of employmemt.

Says you.  Argument?

Quote
Quote from: MoonShadow
Quote
Who has a claim on my labor? Every living person has a fraction of a claim as long as they don't put me on their books as an employee.

And why is that, if you were to choose to reject such claims?  If you choose to honor such claims, or honor an ideology that respects such claims, this cannot be slavery since it's voluntary on your part.  What about those who have a different ideology than yours?  Is is then acceptable to force your claims upon their person?

"Voluntary" slavery is real. Employment all too often restricts personal development.


By my understanding of the term, slavery implies involuntary servitude.

Quote
Quote from: MoonShadow
Quote
Mutual aid, not greed or euphamlisms for it drive the evolution of the world. Capitalism is dying.

What you call capitalism is, hopefully, dying.  For myself and my family, I wish no part of it.  You project your biases upon those you percieve as being in opposition to your ideal worldview, without honestly or accurately considering why there is oppossition at all.  While it's possible that we are all deluded or hopelessly indoctrinated like you seem to assume, we are certainly not all ignorant nor stupid.  What would that foretell of the likely future successes of your ideology, be it correct or not, if you cannot change the minds of a few moderately to well educated people on an internet forum?  Simply decrying our perspectives as faulty, particularly lacking a rational argument as to why, is unlikely to do more than waste a lot of time.  And the quote you provided from Bookchin is not an arguement, it's an opinion.

Indoctrinated, doubtlessly. Hopelessly? Hopefully not.
Well put opinions make for persuasive arguments.


You think that highly of your own opinion, do you?

Maybe for some people, but some people are easily influenced.  I'm not one of those people.  I require some convinceing, and you are falling down on the job.

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Quote from: MoonShadow
Now back to the regularly scheduled discussion...

If you agree that your body belongs to yourself, do you agree that my body belongs to me?  If so, then do you agree that my life also belongs to me, since I can't have one without the other?

Your labor is not yours to sell, its everyone else's inevitably and can't be fairly sold
. Why not work for free? Your will is not up for purchase.



I disagree, my labor is as much to sell as anything else of my property.  If you disagree, make an argument.

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Your life is yours, but selling it is suicide.


So what if it is?  If my life is mine, I have the right to dispose of it as I see fit, including to waste or destroy it.  And no one else has the right to trump my decision.

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Do you respect a world commiting suicide? (Skinny Puppy is awesome)

Are you a person or a random word bot?
I aspire to be a bot of some kind in the future.
Rights are funny, in that your decision to destroy yourself affects others- they rightfully have a say, don't they? It is after all your decision to respect their right.
Labor is not an object. It is an effect on objects. The attempt to commodify labor commodifies laborers instead.
No argument? Neat.

I think pretty highly of myself in general- its unfortunate for me that youv'e committed to the reverse standpoint.

I can submit that slavery is involuntary after an examination of the term voluneer. Someone self employed might be a volunteer, someone who works for free is also a volunteer.
An office worker might not be a volunteer, anyone with hardly another choice about what they do certainly cannot be a vollunteer.
We have slave vs volunteer, where do you see a real middle ground?

Finally it is my opinion that the human slave trade, in the most objectionable sense, provides the basis, the base price, for which the conditions, wages and finally salary of more and more priveleged slaves, or employees are determined.
Its a pretty solid opinion, if you ask me, doesnt need too many citations to have a useful and revealing streak of truth to it.
After all, most arguments are about opinions.
Now- about the state enforcement of rights to ownership of slaves... Hmm.

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June 08, 2013, 04:19:27 AM
 #332

Labor is not an object. It is an effect on objects. The attempt to commodify labor commodifies laborers instead.
No argument? Neat.
Thus the term "goods and services." Goods are objects, services are labor.

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June 08, 2013, 04:26:27 AM
 #333


I aspire to be a bot of some kind in the future.
Rights are funny, in that your decision to destroy yourself affects others- they rightfully have a say, don't they?

They may have a say, (the right to express an opinon on the matter) but there can only be one person who "owns" me.  I'm the decider.  How my decision about me affects others is secondary at best.


In short, no.

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It is after all your decision to respect their right.


My decisions to respect their rights also considers what I consider to be rights.  As long as I'm not trying to harm them, my decision to harm myself or my own property has no effect upon their rights.

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Labor is not an object. It is an effect on objects. The attempt to commodify labor commodifies laborers instead.


Labor is time.  Nothing more, nothing less.

Quote

No argument? Neat.


I've already presented many arguments that you have simply ignored.  Why waste my time, when you aren't really trying?  I'm not at all obligated to convince you of anything, It's you that is trying to convince me, remember?

Quote

I think pretty highly of myself in general- its unfortunate for me that youv'e committed to the reverse standpoint.


This doesn't parse.  Do you think I have a poor self-image?

Quote

I can submit that slavery is involuntary after an examination of the term voluneer. Someone self employed might be a volunteer, someone who works for free is also a volunteer.
An office worker might not be a volunteer, anyone with hardly another choice about what they do certainly cannot be a vollunteer.


If they have the choice to quit without being thrown into some kind of debtors' prison, it's not slavery no matter what the conditions may be.

Quote

We have slave vs volunteer, where do you see a real middle ground?


There really isn't a middle ground.  Either labor is voluntary or involuntary.

Quote

Finally it is my opinion that the human slave trade, in the most objectionable sense, provides the basis, the base price, for which the conditions, wages and finally salary of more and more priveleged slaves, or employees are determined.
Its a pretty solid opinion, if you ask me, doesnt need too many citations to have a useful and revealing streak of truth to it.


It needs at least one verifiable, objective, fact.  A subjective opinoin never qualifies.  Are you a liberal arts major?

Quote
After all, most arguments are about opinions.


No, they are not.  Argumetns are about objective facts put inot a hypothesis about the causes and effects of those facts.   Nothing less is an argument.  You might as well be blabering about how you 'feel' about things.

Quote
Now- about the state enforcement of rights to ownership of slaves... Hmm.

More word salad.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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June 08, 2013, 04:52:49 AM
 #334


I aspire to be a bot of some kind in the future.
Rights are funny, in that your decision to destroy yourself affects others- they rightfully have a say, don't they?

They may have a say, (the right to express an opinon on the matter) but there can only be one person who "owns" me.  I'm the decider.  How my decision about me affects others is secondary at best.


In short, no.

Quote


It is after all your decision to respect their right.


My decisions to respect their rights also considers what I consider to be rights.  As long as I'm not trying to harm them, my decision to harm myself or my own property has no effect upon their rights.

Quote

Labor is not an object. It is an effect on objects. The attempt to commodify labor commodifies laborers instead.


Labor is time.  Nothing more, nothing less.

Quote

No argument? Neat.


I've already presented many arguments that you have simply ignored.  Why waste my time, when you aren't really trying?  I'm not at all obligated to convince you of anything, It's you that is trying to convince me, remember?

Quote

I think pretty highly of myself in general- its unfortunate for me that youv'e committed to the reverse standpoint.


This doesn't parse.  Do you think I have a poor self-image?

Quote

I can submit that slavery is involuntary after an examination of the term voluneer. Someone self employed might be a volunteer, someone who works for free is also a volunteer.
An office worker might not be a volunteer, anyone with hardly another choice about what they do certainly cannot be a vollunteer.


If they have the choice to quit without being thrown into some kind of debtors' prison, it's not slavery no matter what the conditions may be.

Quote

We have slave vs volunteer, where do you see a real middle ground?


There really isn't a middle ground.  Either labor is voluntary or involuntary.

Quote

Finally it is my opinion that the human slave trade, in the most objectionable sense, provides the basis, the base price, for which the conditions, wages and finally salary of more and more priveleged slaves, or employees are determined.
Its a pretty solid opinion, if you ask me, doesnt need too many citations to have a useful and revealing streak of truth to it.


It needs at least one verifiable, objective, fact.  A subjective opinoin never qualifies.  Are you a liberal arts major?

Quote
After all, most arguments are about opinions.


No, they are not.  Argumetns are about objective facts put inot a hypothesis about the causes and effects of those facts.   Nothing less is an argument.  You might as well be blabering about how you 'feel' about things.

Quote
Now- about the state enforcement of rights to ownership of slaves... Hmm.

More word salad.
I feel you're just being contradictory. Debtors prison? Honestly... I'm out of touch but... seriously, yo.
Labor, rather Toil to put it more accurately, is more than just time in my opinion.
Also, the influence of your community is not so easily ignored. You are not an island. You owe your support system mutual support. Shoulders of giants..
I'm convincing you that capitalism and anarchism are not compatable, and that capitalism requires some slavery. We seem to be agreeing more and more.
I think your image of me and my values is a bit lacking, not your image of yourself.
Also, also, look up Socrates. Now, there's an arguing fellow!
Edit: Abe Lincoln wouldn't have called that 'word salad'.


Wit all my solidarities,
-ktttn
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June 08, 2013, 09:00:52 AM
 #335

someone who works for free is also a volunteer.
An office worker might not be a volunteer,


If work without pay is volunteer, and with pay is slavery, then we are in a place I've never been.  Or heard of for that matter.

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June 08, 2013, 03:35:19 PM
 #336

someone who works for free is also a volunteer.
An office worker might not be a volunteer,


If work without pay is volunteer, and with pay is slavery, then we are in a place I've never been.  Or heard of for that matter.
It's called commieland, where working for the benefit of everyone else is voluntary, and working for your own benefit is slavery. Also, War is Peace, and Ignorance is Strength.

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June 08, 2013, 09:10:19 PM
 #337

someone who works for free is also a volunteer.
An office worker might not be a volunteer,


If work without pay is volunteer, and with pay is slavery, then we are in a place I've never been.  Or heard of for that matter.
If you replace "pay" with "coersion" it makes more sense. To own slaves, one needs to compensate them with food and housing, or some kind of "pay" that keeps them alive and one's slave. Pay has evolved in the time since serfs. To call modern wage slaves simply 'slaves' may be a bit of an overstatement, but it still rings true enough to get my point across.
Anyone familiar with sharecroppers?

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June 08, 2013, 09:27:24 PM
 #338

someone who works for free is also a volunteer.
An office worker might not be a volunteer,


If work without pay is volunteer, and with pay is slavery, then we are in a place I've never been.  Or heard of for that matter.
If you replace "pay" with "coercion" it makes more sense.
So it does, but then we're no longer talking about wage labor.

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June 08, 2013, 11:45:01 PM
 #339

someone who works for free is also a volunteer.
An office worker might not be a volunteer,


If work without pay is volunteer, and with pay is slavery, then we are in a place I've never been.  Or heard of for that matter.
If you replace "pay" with "coersion" it makes more sense. To own slaves, one needs to compensate them with food and housing, or some kind of "pay" that keeps them alive and one's slave. Pay has evolved in the time since serfs. To call modern wage slaves simply 'slaves' may be a bit of an overstatement, but it still rings true enough to get my point across.
Anyone familiar with sharecroppers?

Replacing pay with coercion is similar to replacing execution with exoneration.  
It changes the meaning to the polar opposite.
One is force, the other is enticement.  One is compulsion the other opportunity and choice.

Consider instead that being an employee is the step after generalized schooling.  
It is that part of your training to be an entrepreneur, where you get paid to learn.
Its like graduate school for those that want to do things rather than research.
Those that graduate and become entrepreneurs can then engage in training their own employees.

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June 09, 2013, 12:06:26 AM
 #340

someone who works for free is also a volunteer.
An office worker might not be a volunteer,


If work without pay is volunteer, and with pay is slavery, then we are in a place I've never been.  Or heard of for that matter.
If you replace "pay" with "coersion" it makes more sense. To own slaves, one needs to compensate them with food and housing, or some kind of "pay" that keeps them alive and one's slave. Pay has evolved in the time since serfs. To call modern wage slaves simply 'slaves' may be a bit of an overstatement, but it still rings true enough to get my point across.
Anyone familiar with sharecroppers?

Replacing pay with coercion is similar to replacing execution with exoneration.  
It changes the meaning to the polar opposite.
One is force, the other is enticement.  One is compulsion the other opportunity and choice.

Consider instead that being an employee is the step after generalized schooling.  
It is that part of your training to be an entrepreneur, where you get paid to learn.
Its like graduate school for those that want to do things rather than research.
Those that graduate and become entrepreneurs can then engage in training their own employees.
In practice, what you describe is the exception to the rule within a state capitalist framework. Dependency on employers prevents many from ever coming far enough out of debt to do what they want.
I have a hard time with equating pay to exoneration or choice because reliance on any paycheck does not let you all the way out of the state or capitalist's control. Pay is giving a man a fish and assuming he has means to stockpile fish until he can learn to fish.

Wit all my solidarities,
-ktttn
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