[ANN] [ETC] Ethereum Classic - Immutable Smart Contracts (unmoderated)

[JudgeDredd_]

Ethereum Classic is a project to keep the original censorship-resistant, immutable, decentralized Ethereum

Developers will be building on our immutable chain, are you ready? Code is law.

Community

http://www.ethereumclassic.org

http://ethcwiki.org/

https://github.com/ethereumproject
https://github.com/ethereumclassic

https://www.reddit.com/r/EthereumClassic/

https://ethereumclassic.herokuapp.com/

https://telegram.me/ethclassic
https://telegram.me/ethereumclassic

https://twitter.com/ethereumclassic

QQ Groups: 361470220 - 568474359

Russian
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1563268
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1563328
https://ethclassic.ru

Indonesian
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1563400

There are no bounties at this time


Exchanges

https://poloniex.com/exchange#btc_etc

https://poloniex.com/exchange#usdt_etc

https://poloniex.com/exchange#eth_etc

https://bittrex.com/Market/Index?MarketName=BTC-ETC

https://www.kraken.com

https://www.bitfinex.com

https://c-cex.com/?p=etc-btc

https://shapeshift.io

https://bitsquare.io

https://www.bitwa.la

https://www.cryptopia.co.nz/Exchange/?market=ETC_BTC

https://www.bitmex.com/app/trade/ETC24H

https://www.coinexchange.io/market/ETC/BTC

https://yobit.net/en/trade/ETC/BTC


Wallets and Explorers

https://github.com/ethereum/mist/releases
https://github.com/ethereum/mist/releases/download/0.8.1/Ethereum-Wallet-win64-0-8-1.zip Choose NO fork
You can't have the forked blockchain though. So if you already had this software you need to rename Mist and Ethereum in appdata to start fresh and choose no fork.

https://elaineo.github.io/etherwallet/

https://github.com/ethereumproject/go-ethereum/releases

http://coinmarketcap.com

https://www.cryptocompare.com/coins/etc/overview

http://polotrex.com

https://www.etc-eth.com

http://fork.ethstats.net

http://stats.ethc.io

http://www.etcminer.com

http://ethereumwisdom.com/#!/ethclassic

http://classic.aakilfernandes.com

http://explorer.ethereumclassic.com/

http://gastracker.io

https://minergate.com/blockchain/etc/blocks


Pools - I can't vouch for any though

https://www.cryptocompare.com/mining/calculator/etc
https://www.cryptocompare.com/mining/#/pools?f0=ETC

http://ethc.epool.io
http://pool.ethereumclassic.com
https://ethc.coin-miners.info
http://etc.nanopool.org
https://etcpool.io
https://etc.suprnova.cc
https://minergate.com
http://etc.coinpool.biz
http://www.ethteam.com
http://etc.poolto.be
http://yolo.ethclassic.faith
https://ethereum-classic.miningpoolhub.com
http://etc.coinpool.biz
https://www.coinotron.com
http://etc.digger.ws


Press

https://bitcoinmagazine.com/articles/rejecting-today-s-hard-fork-the-ethereum-classic-project-continues-on-the-original-chain-here-s-why-1469038808

http://www.forbes.com/sites/francescoppola/2016/07/21/a-painful-lesson-for-the-ethereum-community/

http://www.forbes.com/sites/francescoppola/2016/07/28/ethereum-the-battle-of-the-chains

http://www.coindesk.com/ethereum-hard-fork-creates-competing-currencies-support-ethereum-classic-rises/

https://medium.com/@zsfelfoldi/a-tale-of-two-chains-3f6d58a9df4a

https://medium.com/@Stampery/why-stampery-supports-ethereum-classic-4c86ec7cca17

https://steemit.com/ethereum/@cryptorune/a-ethereum-civil-war-is-happening-right-now-and-why-classic-should-win

https://ethereumheadlines.com/2016/07/25/ethereum-classic-is-now-trading-on-poloniex/

http://www.coindesk.com/tale-two-chains-ethereum/

http://www.newsbtc.com/2016/07/26/case-ethereum-classic/

https://steemit.com/dao/@gedae/the-dao-and-the-benefactors

http://themerkle.com/etc-trumps-ethereum-trading-volume-on-poloniex/

https://steemit.com/cryptocurrency/@whalepanda/what-happened-with-ethereum-usdeth-and-ethereum-classic-usdetc


Ideology

We believe in decentralized, censorship-resistant, permissionless, IMMUTABLE blockchains. We believe in the original vision of Ethereum as a world computer you can't shut down, running irreversible smart contracts. We believe in a strong separation of concerns, where system forks are only possible in order to correct actual platform bugs, not to bail out failed contracts and special interests. We believe in censorship-resistant platform that can be actually trusted - by anyone. Code is law.

More: https://medium.com/@bit_novosti/a-crypto-decentralist-manifesto-6ba1fa0b9ede


Motivation

Ethereum Foundation responded to DAO debacle in the worst way possible. Special interests controlling the Foundation are ramming through DAO bailout hardfork against principled opposition of a significant economic minority of Ethereum stakeholders. According to (diligently hidden, pro-fork) coin vote on Carbonvote, 19% of ETH holders oppose this hardfork. Also, about 22% of Ethereum miners voted against the previous 'DAO softfork' and would logically oppose hardfork as well. Such a significant minority of stakeholders should not be silenced or intimidated into submission - they should be given a clear choice.

If we want to continue to move forward and guarantee survival of the original Ethereum vision, we must fork Ethereum. This will lay the foundation to build secure decentralized applications that are actually censorship resistant.

More: https://github.com/ethereumclassic/freeworldcomputer-project


Goals

The main goal of the project is to ensure survival of the original Ethereum blockchain. We will strive to provide alternative for people who strongly disagree with DAO bailout and the direction Ethereum Foundation is taking their project. Anyone opting to remain on the original chain should have such opportunity.


Development

We fork Ethereum and maintain upstream patches similar to the relation between Redhat and CentOS, until a community can form around the project and create a road map. Until this happens we can fork multiple existing clients to help prevent a monoculture of clients. We plan to follow https://github.com/ethereum development except for any features they introduce into existing clients that violate the key principles of openness, neutrality and immutability.

Code: https://github.com/ethereumclassic


What can I do?

Please help us spread the word about this project in Ethereum community!


Volunteers

If you feel strongly about the cause, please get involved. With just days before the planned hardfork, we need your support to ensure original Ethereum survival. We need more developers, website designers, people who can write and advocate the need for Ethereum Classic. Please let us know what are your skills and how you would like to contribute. Redditors, please reply here. Github users, please open new issue.


Users

In order to remain on the original Ethereum chain, just don't upgrade to hardfork client version pushed by Ethereum Foundation. We will maintain non-fork versions of all major Ethereum clients (as well as other key software), so going forwards all the improvements will be available to you.

Fun fact. If you keep ETH under your direct control (not in a 3rd party wallet or exchange account), you will have two sets of coins instead of one post-fork. You could then install a forked Ethereum client in addition to Ethereum Classic, copy your private keys there and use your coins on both chains! You won't be so lucky if your ETH are locked with 3rd party going into the fork - some exchanges already announced that they will only return one type of coin post-fork to its users.


Miners

Miners supporting the original chain should just keep mining with current version of software for now, without upgrading to client version introducing the hardfork code. It will be always possible to download and build latest non-fork version from https://github.com/ethereumclassic.

The difficulty of the original chain will be quite high post-fork, but it will adjust to actual hashrate shortly (just 2048 blocks, a few hours). Since it is expected that most hashrate will move to hardfoked chain, post-adjustment it will be possible to obtain decent mining rewards in classic ethers even with solo mining.

Because the difficulty adjusts quickly, it will be also quite possible to solo mine soon after the fork. If you intend to mine Ethereum Classic, please don't upgrade to geth 1.4.10 just yet, due to potential vulnerability. We will inform you when it's safe to upgrade. For now, just solo-mine with geth 1.4.9 or any earlier version, or use Classic pool.


Traders

https://bitsquare.io/

Most important question for traders is 'will ETHC have market price'? There are all reasons to believe that it will. Essentially, ETHC is an Ethereum 'spinoff coin' with a wide user base of all current ETH users. Some of them will see the value of transacting on a censorship-resistant chain, some won't. This creates interesting arbitrage opportunities for smart traders. Additional reasoning why EHTC is very unlikely to be 'worthless'.

Both Poloniex a Bitfinex announced that they will assign their users both ETH and ETHC after the fork. This is a step in the right direction, now it's up to these major exchanges to enable ETH/ETHC trading that will no doubt be demanded by users. Decentralized exchange Bitsquare announced ETHC trading right after the fork. Other trading venues will follow since there is a strong business case. We are in touch with several other exchanges to add ETHC trading to their platforms. If your exchange is interested in ETHC trading, please contact us.

Let's make sure original Ethereum vision doesn't just "go gentle into that good night"!


https://github.com/ethereumclassic/README

[OKdoky]

I have requested Genessis Mining to run my contract for ETC.

Hi XXX,

We are sorry, but we are mining ETH at the moment. If we change that we will inform our clients.

Best regards,
Jordi
Genesis Mining

My reply

ETC is the original chain that we have a contract for!

[ocminer]

I have requested Genessis Mining to run my contract for ETC.

Hi XXX,

We are sorry, but we are mining ETH at the moment. If we change that we will inform our clients.

Best regards,
Jordi
Genesis Mining

My reply

ETC is the original chain that we have a contract for!

You can mine my simply pointing your miner to:

https://etc.suprnova.cc

Get your Rigs @

https://www.nicehash.com

or

http://www.miningrigrentals.com

[kahir]

Reserved

[samspaces]

What is censored about the other thread?

[raphma]

I have requested Genessis Mining to run my contract for ETC.

Hi XXX,

We are sorry, but we are mining ETH at the moment. If we change that we will inform our clients.

Best regards,
Jordi
Genesis Mining

My reply

ETC is the original chain that we have a contract for!

you cant choose the poolmine at genesis?

[electronicash]

What is censored about the other thread?

Curious to know as well.  is your ETC not forked? LOLZ. the other thread isn't self moderated though.
Anyway, Just so I can monitor what is to be exposed here, I'm watching this threads still hoping to get new info as i have invested for to ETC.

[parthack9]

I don't understand this whole debacle. Can anyone please explain it to me an a very dumbed down kind of way. Thank you in advance.

[JudgeDredd_]

What is censored about the other thread?

Curious to know as well.  is your ETC not forked? LOLZ. the other thread isn't self moderated though.
Anyway, Just so I can monitor what is to be exposed here, I'm watching this threads still hoping to get new info as i have invested for to ETC.

You blind?

[gravitate]

awesome lets do this

[Perryl]

I have requested Genessis Mining to run my contract for ETC.

Hi XXX,

We are sorry, but we are mining ETH at the moment. If we change that we will inform our clients.

Best regards,
Jordi
Genesis Mining

My reply

ETC is the original chain that we have a contract for!

you cant choose the poolmine at genesis?

Genesis is cloud mining. It's not profitable anyways. lol

[JudgeDredd_]

This thread need some serious attention for a better Uncensored Discussion.

[monsanto]

What is censored about the other thread?

Curious to know as well.  is your ETC not forked? LOLZ. the other thread isn't self moderated though.
Anyway, Just so I can monitor what is to be exposed here, I'm watching this threads still hoping to get new info as i have invested for to ETC.

I think this is the thread for the completely fork resistant immutable for eternity ETC... the one that won't even fork to avoid the difficulty bomb  

"It's better to burn out, than to fade away."

[electronicash]

What is censored about the other thread?

Curious to know as well.  is your ETC not forked? LOLZ. the other thread isn't self moderated though.
Anyway, Just so I can monitor what is to be exposed here, I'm watching this threads still hoping to get new info as i have invested for to ETC.

You blind?

I was just too focused on the word uncensored which is very different from the word moderated. i find these words very different in meaning.
if they all mean the same thing to you then I guess, you must have gone from hell and back to learned well than the rest. 

[bitpop]

I don't see anything here that's been "censored" there

[electronicash]

I don't see anything here that's been "censored" there

Exactly! all information was displayed on that thread and its no secret ETC is forked i don't think someone can hide that.
This will just confuse the rest of the users or is this set to confuse users and divide the ETC community again?

[bitpop]

I don't see anything here that's been "censored" there

Exactly! all information was displayed on that thread and its no secret ETC is forked i don't think someone can hide that.
This will just confuse the rest of the users or is this set to confuse users and divide the ETC community again?

Yeah op needs to keep the op updated if he wants to run this

[monsanto]

I don't see anything here that's been "censored" there

Exactly! all information was displayed on that thread and its no secret ETC is forked i don't think someone can hide that.
This will just confuse the rest of the users or is this set to confuse users and divide the ETC community again?

Yeah op needs to keep the op updated if he wants to run this

Are you supporting forking to avoid the difficulty bomb in the other thread?

[bitpop]

Ethf hasn't decided either. Our community will do forks if needed that don't change balances.

[JudgeDredd_]

Edited the title to suit it better

[JudgeDredd_]

Do you guys think ETH will die out and everyone will go to ETC ?

[frostminer]

I don't see anything here that's been "censored" there

Are you joking?

You have been MASS DELETING posts.


The thread didnt get the "North Korea" name for nothing.

[owlcatz]

Do you guys think ETH will die out and everyone will go to ETC ?

The 24hr volume is running at 10K BTC/ETC vs 5K BTC/ETH at polo right now, so that is indeed a very good question.

Edit - Greed will win either way. Both are like shitcoins to me now anyhow lol.

[bitpop]

First EthereumClassic meetup on 18 August in London https://twitter.com/bit_novosti/status/759285973981208576

Litecoin dev: Major miners are turning to #ETC now. https://twitter.com/TheRealXinxi/status/759255155674062848

[JudgeDredd_]

First EthereumClassic meetup on 18 August in London https://twitter.com/bit_novosti/status/759285973981208576

Litecoin dev: Major miners are turning to #ETC now. https://twitter.com/TheRealXinxi/status/759255155674062848

That is interesting, will sure follow this up.

[frostminer]

Bitpop still doing heavy muting in his immutable coin thread.

This time this one:


deleted post:

"kinda pointless to reply here, as most replies are deleted if Kim Jung Bitpop doesnt approve.


This should be the main thread for ETC:
[ANN] [ETC] Ethereum Classic - Immutable Smart Contracts (unmoderated) https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1567565.0

"

[JudgeDredd_]

Bitpop still doing heavy muting in his immutable coin thread.

This time this one:


deleted post:

"kinda pointless to reply here, as most replies are deleted if Kim Jung Bitpop doesnt approve.


This should be the main thread for ETC:
[ANN] [ETC] Ethereum Classic - Immutable Smart Contracts (unmoderated) https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1567565.0

"

This is why this thread exist.

[m4nki]

Following this thread.

[bbc.reporter]

First EthereumClassic meetup on 18 August in London https://twitter.com/bit_novosti/status/759285973981208576

Litecoin dev: Major miners are turning to #ETC now. https://twitter.com/TheRealXinxi/status/759255155674062848

This will turn the tide for the original Ethereum classic. Miners from other altcoins are most welcome to secure the network. If everything will go well it will be profitable for them, beneficial to the community and will become an open and fair playground for the developers. Bravo people!

[frostminer]

First EthereumClassic meetup on 18 August in London https://twitter.com/bit_novosti/status/759285973981208576

Litecoin dev: Major miners are turning to #ETC now. https://twitter.com/TheRealXinxi/status/759255155674062848

This will turn the tide for the original Ethereum classic. Miners from other altcoins are most welcome to secure the network. If everything will go well it will be profitable for them, beneficial to the community and will become an open and fair playground for the developers. Bravo people!

That TheRealXinxi user seems quite retarded... not really a good selling point.

He also thinks "btc has been hacked" ...

[densuj]

Do you guys think ETH will die out and everyone will go to ETC ?

I don't think so, if there are not updating and innovation by developer of ETC it will not happen. Even if there are not wallet ETC on android, it is different with ETH who has wallet on android. So let's wait and see updating and innovation by developer of ETC.

[bbc.reporter]

The forked chain will not die easily. I keep repeating it here in the forum that there will be a mining arms race between the original Ethereum classic and the Ethereum fork. It already has begun and some parties are already expressing their interest in mining the original chain. Now the only question that remains is will it be profitable for the miners? So that will depend in the price of ETC. Higher ETC price = higher hash rate.

[usukan]

@iCEBREAKER - Ive watched your posts from other threads and you have some good wisdom and ideas here - you have experience which many if not most here do not unfortunately - but ignore the flack from @green whatever it is. As if their personal situation should guide the future of ETC? This community should pay you MUCH more attention.

Just a mention there @BitPop - nobody in ETC wants censorship in the threads - so back off please. We are 100% against this. If you don't agree - you are diametrically opposed to what ETC stands for.

Just for the record

This community member favours POS - yes straight out POS

I could live with SHA256/POS

Forget hybrid POW, continuing daggerhasi...fork once and get it right.

KISS principle - keep it simple STUPID

My suggestions
- POS has security and enables scale-ability (like 3sec blocks plus ETH version of Lightening Network - Raiden) - it also directly draws from ETH work which takes heat of the poor few ETC devs who will be going mad trying to keep up if there is significant divergence
- POW SHA256 will get mass adoption - and its nuts and bolts to swap (and its a world away from ETH) - the security provided by SHA256 adoption should not be underestimated.


Register this please - POS for ETC going forward - thats my vote. I don't care if you disagree - we will debate in detail further down the track when things are clearer.

Yes -  I am a miner (SHA256 and other algos - whatever that pays the best at the time) but I consider that the horizon is close to sunset on this infernal waste of resources to support a coin. Most miners do not have cheap/free power and most electricity is NOT surplus or sustainable. 5 years from now POW will be dead IMO unless China continues to prop up miners and centralise things further.

POS is the future IMO

[usukan]

post by icebreaker https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1559630.msg15836594#msg15836594

PoW miners in China and everywhere else gravitate towards free surplus energy blah blah blah...OK enough of the scope creep.   Tongue

Turning the specific case of ETC into a general referendum on PoW vs PoS and every other pet issue around is the opposite of KISS.

Changing to a different pure PoW is highly controversial and a non-starter.

We have three potentially viable options.

In order of KISS to not-KISS:

1.  Merge whatever PoS ETH does.  Done.
2.  Defuse diff bomb and PoW forever.  Hope devs and economy are up to the Medium Difficulty task of coping with protocol/codebase drift.
3.  Charlie Hos' new hybrid.  Hope it works and is secure.  Hope devs and economy are up to the Highly Difficult challenge of coping with protocol/codebase drift.

Note these are not mutually exclusive propositions, resulting in ETC, Classic Classic, and ETC2, but only the first option minimizes effort duplication in regard to ETH.


IMO of usukan:

Cool - I am with you on this -
1.  Merge whatever PoS ETH does.  Done.

[szachta]

ETH go to pos or ETC go to pos?Chao have 1 eskido = 3 BTC week ago have 1 chao=12 BTC,so ETC yes can be 1ETC=1 BTC,i will wait with my 84 ETC two years,maybe price will go up.I have much profit with prohashing .

[monsanto]

In order of KISS to not-KISS:

1.  Merge whatever PoS ETH does.  Done.
2.  Defuse diff bomb and PoW forever.  Hope devs and economy are up to the Medium Difficulty task of coping with protocol/codebase drift.
3.  Charlie Hos' new hybrid.  Hope it works and is secure.  Hope devs and economy are up to the Highly Difficult challenge of coping with protocol/codebase drift.

4. Total and complete immutability..total purity: no defusing of difficulty bomb.



The most KISS of all.

[ocminer]

10% Mining Bonus soon on https://etc.suprnova.cc

Check the Countdown on the page

[DMDCreeper]

I am purely a miner and I am not interesting in these arguments about ETC vs ETH.  I mine whichever is more profitable. 

I have been solo mining ETC experimentally for the past 18 hours.  Over that period I have found 5 blocks, 3 of which appear to be Uncles.  I wrote some software to use the geth RPC to determine when my balance changes and if it does, I add a "deposit" record to a database.  The software queries geth at regular intervals.  I did not write this software to check the accuracy of the wallet, its more about mining stats and profitability.

I use this same program for ETH, ETC, and Expanse and it has worked correctly for months.  This morning I noticed something peculiar and I am wondering if the ETC community can explain it.  I see in my database 5 deposits that sum to a little over 17 ETC.  However, my wallet account balance is only 9 ETC.  Since my program compares an old balance to a new balance the old balance would have to have increased 5 times in the amounts shown in my database for these deposits to appear.  So its clear that I did in fact receive 17 ETC POW rewards.

As I said, the program was not intended to be an accounting program for my wallet but I have since changed it to look for decreases as well as increases.

I will continue to mine ETC to see if this continues but I'd like to know if anyone can explain what is happening that is causing my balance to decrease after I received a mining reward.

And if anyone is interested, since I have mined ETC off and on for a few weeks, I have found a number of blocks and about 60% of them are uncles.  When you factor in the reduced rewards for uncles, it significantly changes the profitability of ETC vs. ETH.

[frostminer]

I am purely a miner and I am not interesting in these arguments about ETC vs ETH.  I mine whichever is more profitable. 

I have been solo mining ETC experimentally for the past 18 hours.  Over that period I have found 5 blocks, 3 of which appear to be Uncles.  I wrote some software to use the geth RPC to determine when my balance changes and if it does, I add a "deposit" record to a database.  The software queries geth at regular intervals.  I did not write this software to check the accuracy of the wallet, its more about mining stats and profitability.

I use this same program for ETH, ETC, and Expanse and it has worked correctly for months.  This morning I noticed something peculiar and I am wondering if the ETC community can explain it.  I see in my database 5 deposits that sum to a little over 17 ETC.  However, my wallet account balance is only 9 ETC.  Since my program compares an old balance to a new balance the old balance would have to have increased 5 times in the amounts shown in my database for these deposits to appear.  So its clear that I did in fact receive 17 ETC POW rewards.

As I said, the program was not intended to be an accounting program for my wallet but I have since changed it to look for decreases as well as increases.

I will continue to mine ETC to see if this continues but I'd like to know if anyone can explain what is happening that is causing my balance to decrease after I received a mining reward.

And if anyone is interested, since I have mined ETC off and on for a few weeks, I have found a number of blocks and about 60% of them are uncles.  When you factor in the reduced rewards for uncles, it significantly changes the profitability of ETC vs. ETH.

Could it be that you lost contact with nodes/peers and mined for yourself on your own forked chain for a while? Then it was dumped when reconnected?

[DMDCreeper]

I am purely a miner and I am not interesting in these arguments about ETC vs ETH.  I mine whichever is more profitable. 

I have been solo mining ETC experimentally for the past 18 hours.  Over that period I have found 5 blocks, 3 of which appear to be Uncles.  I wrote some software to use the geth RPC to determine when my balance changes and if it does, I add a "deposit" record to a database.  The software queries geth at regular intervals.  I did not write this software to check the accuracy of the wallet, its more about mining stats and profitability.

I use this same program for ETH, ETC, and Expanse and it has worked correctly for months.  This morning I noticed something peculiar and I am wondering if the ETC community can explain it.  I see in my database 5 deposits that sum to a little over 17 ETC.  However, my wallet account balance is only 9 ETC.  Since my program compares an old balance to a new balance the old balance would have to have increased 5 times in the amounts shown in my database for these deposits to appear.  So its clear that I did in fact receive 17 ETC POW rewards.

As I said, the program was not intended to be an accounting program for my wallet but I have since changed it to look for decreases as well as increases.

I will continue to mine ETC to see if this continues but I'd like to know if anyone can explain what is happening that is causing my balance to decrease after I received a mining reward.

And if anyone is interested, since I have mined ETC off and on for a few weeks, I have found a number of blocks and about 60% of them are uncles.  When you factor in the reduced rewards for uncles, it significantly changes the profitability of ETC vs. ETH.

Could it be that you lost contact with nodes/peers and mined for yourself on your own forked chain for a while? Then it was dumped when reconnected?

I thought that was a reasonable explanation but now, after 2 days 10 ETC disappeared from my wallet.  Obviously that destroys my profitability - losing 50% of my wallet balance.  Is thiws ETC coin legitimate or is being pumped up by thieves who are exploiting the code for their own gain?

In any case, I am not taking any chances.  I am done with ETC.  Good luck to everyone else but watch your accounts closely.

[DMDCreeper]

I should have noted in my previous post that I received a geth console message about a possible "replay attack" around the time my 10 ETC disappeared from my account.  I am thinking ETC is supported by thieves for thieves.

[manotroll]

What are the rewards in mining ethereum classic in mining soil ?

[bitcoin8980]

What are the rewards in mining ethereum classic in mining soil ?

rewards are for lucky ones and i think for those who are not wasting their time ant not take it easy and are consistent then they find their way.

[NabilaM]

where the nodes..?