Avalon ASIC Batch #2 Income Sharing; arrived and hashing

[ProfMac]

I got it, finaly!

Yeah!!

Care to help the other folks get it?

[ProfMac]

I got it, finaly!

Yeah!!

Care to help the other folks get it?

Alert!

Some transactions are coming in from multiple addresses.  Please be sure that the paying address is yours, and not hidden behind a mixer!

[Rampion]

Care to help the other folks get it?

I'd rather shot myself in the leg!

Joking, here it is:

1. There are 100 shares on sale.
2. Each share represents 1/100 of hashing power provided by Avalon batch 2 machine.
3. Each share guarantees 1/100 of mining profits generated by mentioned machine.
4. Owner of the share gets back at least the amount of bitcoins he invested in share.
5. Unless someone outbids owner of the share, he or she will be getting 1/100 of the mining profits for the lifetime of mentioned machine.

About multiple addresses - don't worry, I'm the owner of all those addresses. Paperwallets made for each of them, backup on 3 USB sticks and DVD-RW, etc.

So: only the 100 highest bidders get dividends - correct?

Where do we see the current higher and lower bid? It would be cool to know that if you bid less than X you won't be able to get in.

[theGECK]

I believe that only the top 10 highest bidders each receive 1% of the Avalon. He previously was selling 1% shares for a fixed price and I'm not sure how many people bought into that.

[dchou]

70% of the shares have already been bought at a fixed price.  The transaction log is here 17Pq8oPtk8rikxZhF1wENFqR9YtDyLyr8E.

This auction is for an additional 10% share.  The 10 highest bids in this auction will each get 1% share, after which 80% will have been sold. 

[ProfMac]

70% of the shares have already been bought at a fixed price.  The transaction log is here 17Pq8oPtk8rikxZhF1wENFqR9YtDyLyr8E.

This auction is for an additional 10% share.  The 10 highest bids in this auction will each get 1% share, after which 80% will have been sold.  

Yes.

For convenience, here are transaction logs for both ventures.

(70%, 70 shares) Fixed price of BTC 0.8683 per share, now closed to additional purchase.

(10%, 10 shares) Multi winner Auction for 1 share, 10 separate winners.

[theGECK]

(10%, 10 shares) Multi winner Auction for 1 share, 10 separate winners.

1) Are bids tied to addresses, such that each address' total bid is compared against every other addresses' total bid?
2) When are the bids tallied and we find out who won the auction and what address has the share?

[ProfMac]

That means total number of shares might become more than 100, or it just means you might opt to administer less than 10 addresses on your side? If it is the
former, it breaks the most important setting in this deal. One can't make any calculations or predictions if number of shares can change - increase - on your will.

I have defined 1 share as 1% of the machine's earnings.  
I have purchased 10 shares, and I will pay electricity, cooling, and other costs out of that dividend stream.
It does not matter how many shares I sell, the return per share is not diluted by other sales.  Unsold income, er, isn't sold.

I hope to have ฿72.36 or ฿99.14 in hand, I hope that the Batch #3 Avalons will open for a 2nd round of sales the same way that Batch #2 did, I hope BFL does not ship today, I hope that Batch #14 Avalon is on 14 nm ASICS and is a freestanding a solar powered sculpture, and I hope to successfully buy another mining rig.

With two machines, I can sell 175% of my first unit, and everything will be transparent, add up correctly, and work under the originally published Offer.  It may convince the casual onlooker into thinking I knew what I was doing all along.

[ProfMac]

(10%, 10 shares) Multi winner Auction for 1 share, 10 separate winners.

1) Are bids tied to addresses, such that each address' total bid is compared against every other addresses' total bid?
2) When are the bids tallied and we find out who won the auction and what address has the share?

For the auction, the following list of definitions may help.

Share --- what you buy.  Equivalent to 1% of the machine income.
Bid --- offer to buy 1 share.
Payment --- transfer of bitcoin from 1 single address to address 17DCms43Vu2yusDjmpjHJuZihSSWkNzgSH
Bids are tied to payment addresses.  A standard bid has 1 incoming and 1 outgoing address.  One address may make additional payments to increase the amount of that bid.
Transaction --- a bundle of 1 or more payments.  I might have a transaction for "band payment" that includes inputs from bar regulars Bob, Ted, Sue, and Alice, and outputs for guitar, vocalist, drummer, fiddler (I'm from Texas, ya gotta have a fiddle in the band.)

There is a mess with some bids coming from several incoming addresses.  The actual rule that I published is per address, and not per transaction.  

Complex Nerd & Administrative Stuff that you can skip:
Here is an example of using that rule:
I start a new wallet with bitcoin-QT, and create 11 addresses with it.  I deposit BTC 55.005 as follows:  1 coin to address 1, 2 coins to address 2, 3 coins to address 3 ... 10 coins to address 10, and 0.005 coins to address 11.
I send a BTC 55 payment from my wallet to the bidding address with a 0.005 Miner's fee.
This 1 transaction makes 10 separate bids.

[ProfMac]

At this point I just lost it. What exactly buys one share? Transaction or total sum of bitcoins sent from one address? If it is the later, it won't work
since only few use Armory wallet, which allows picking address or addresses that will be used as a source for bitcoins. For anyone else, sending more
bitcoins as a way to outbid some previous bid means high chance already used address will be used again, and that means new bitcoins sent will be
used to pump already placed bid instead of outbidding some other bid. I don't wanna end up paying 5 BTC for one share and some other guy getting
1 share for 0.1 BTC or less.

Let's not overcomplicate. 10 transactions which placed the most bitcoins own 1 share each. Don't bring addresses in, it will be a horror to manage bids.

Hmmm.

http://blockchain.info/ will let you import your wallet.  They will let you pick which address you make payment from.  They have 2 factor authentication.

Let me know what client you are using, I'll explore it.

[ProfMac]

You are funny. Unless one has 10 different addresses, each holding more bitcoins than bids aimed to be outbidden, there is no way he can own 10 shares.

When the auction opened, you could own 9 shares for 9 Satoshis.

Of course, when you split your bid, it is easy for each one to be outbid.  That is why I made a recommendation against it.

If you would like to help out the Sons of ProfMac, you could of course make 10 bids of BTC 100 each.  I would be very grateful.

[theGECK]

You are funny. Unless one has 10 different addresses, each holding more bitcoins than bids aimed to be outbidden, there is no way he can own 10 shares.

Easily creating new addresses is part of Bitcoin. In fact, creating a new address when you send for change to be returned to you was part of the original bitcoin software (not sure about how it works now, since I don't use that software.) blockchain.info allows you to create a new address and transfer money from one to another. If you had 3 BTC and wanted to send .8 3 times, you could split that into 2 new addresses and then send a .8 transaction from each of your three addresses. That would leave you with .6 in your wallet, and create bids from three addresses. I believe most wallet software allows you to do the same thing, since it's a part of the code.

And unless Prof is continually refunding bids, the auction will be difficult to manage from our end. If I send in a bid for .5 BTC and somebody sends in one for .6 BTC, the cost for me to outbid you is suddenly 1.2 BTC until I get a refund. And that just escalates very quickly.

Using separate addresses to differentiate between people is how you keep accountability and transparency. You can either have a separate address that somebody sends coins to (as many online stores do) or have separate addresses send coins to you (as group buys/etc do). The way prof is doing it allows for transparent bookkeeping to protect all of us.

[Rampion]

Hi Prof, still very complicate for me (maybe is just because english is not my native language). Simple question:

What is your ultimate goal? Maybe if you express it clearly, in two lines, we can find a mechanic that fulfills your goals and makes life easier for investors.

IMHO 1st phase is clear (you sell 70% of the shares for a fixed price per share), but I don't really get why do you use the blockchain for bids in the 2nd phase. Investors could just bid in the post (eg: 1@0.5BTC, etc.) as per all other auctions on these forums - I don't get using the blockchain unless outbidded investors are not refunded, which I think it's not the case.

Then, I would be more confident to invest if you established an "end date" for the auction. Otherwise investors cannot plan and stick to a bidding strategy.

Just my 2 satoshis...

[TheJuice]

The block chain bidding is ideal. It makes the bids binding. In my auction for CH shares, I had a few bids that were not honored. Love the innovation profmac.

Too bad my auction took too long, I was gathering those coins to invest with you prof.

2 questions:

1) End date for the auction - there has to be one for me to bid.
2) Will there be refunds to original address for non-winning bids?

Thx TheJucie

[Rampion]

The block chain bidding is ideal. It makes the bids binding. In my auction for CH shares, I had a few bids that were not honored. Love the innovation profmac.

Too bad my auction took too long, I was gathering those coins to invest with you prof.

2 questions:

1) End date for the auction - there has to be one for me to bid.
2) Will there be refunds to original address for non-winning bids?

Thx TheJucie

Report immediately the users that did not honor their bids in your post and they may get a scammer tag. As you may have noticed posts cannot be edited in auction subforum, they are binding.

[ProfMac]

For that to be true, I'd need to send 1 Satoshi from each of the 9 different addresses, than send more bitcoins individually for each and all addresses where my
bid was no longer the highest one.

Yes, exactly.

I will demonstrate that with 5 @ 1 Shatoshi bids in 1 transaction.  Then I will have an experienced view of how difficult the task is, and whether I have misunderstood something very important.

The bitcoin-qt client wants to add 0.000 5 BTC for a miner's fee.  Here is the set up transaction where I am putting exact amounts into each of the addresses.

What you are saying is that I don't own 5 shares for 0.1 BTC each but just 1 share for which I paid 0.5 BTC already. Unless I use some new addresses to send
bitcoins, I can bid on 1 and only 1 share - the one I own right now. Or I actualy own more than 1 share now, but I'd need to figure out how many bitcoins were
sent from each of addresses I've used already, else there is no way for me to figure out anything? One who has 10 BTC split on 10.000 addresses already lost
the auction? Unless one uses Armory, blockchain.info wallet or some other solution, he is pretty much screwed and might actualy seriously overpay the share.

[/quote

When I read this, I think you have not looked at the links I provided to blockchain.info  

Do you mind telling me what client you are using to pay?

You are correct.  You have a lot of non-winning bids.  We are not in a hurry here, and I think the winning bids will be higher than your bids, based on eBay bids of $20,100 or so for a batch #2 Avalon.  I will send the payments back to you, but I want you to verify a 2nd time that the addresses all belong to your wallet.  After I send payment to an address, I can't change it's destination.

I want it to be as simple as possible, but not simpler.  Most of the threads in these forums are involved in some type of dispute, and I don't want my own.  Paying money back to the same address it came in from makes all of the auditing be automatic and very simple.  Anyone in the world can see what I did, or did not, do.

The 10 incoming addresses that send the most total bitcoin will each have 1 share (1% of the mining income)
N.b. it does not matter how much the total of payments is, 1 address gets 1 share.  It is a multiple winner auction.
I can't tell if 1 person sends payments from several addresses.  Just letting you know that I know.  I think focus is a better strategy.

@ theGECK

You and Prof must be right, that is why there is incredible amount of interest in this offer. There are five pages of posts already not because it is unclear what
is offer about or because the deal is overcomplicated but because people just love to post, they do it for fun or to increase post count.

You want to attract as many people as possible and have fun but you are making managing the offer convenient for you only, at all costs it seems. What a joke!

You stand to gain something like BTC 5 per share in this deal.  

I walked to an ATM on a bank holiday in -26°F wind chill in blowing and drifting snow to move USD into bitcoin, and spent at least 6 hours trying to figure out the WalletBit web site while racing the clock and the other purchasers.  I was successful, and I am offering a second chance with more convenience, less time pressure, and less total funds to you and anyone.  

I will try to help you through this process, and I am sure that others will also offer help.

[ProfMac]

The block chain bidding is ideal. It makes the bids binding. In my auction for CH shares, I had a few bids that were not honored. Love the innovation profmac.

Too bad my auction took too long, I was gathering those coins to invest with you prof.

2 questions:

1) End date for the auction - there has to be one for me to bid.
2) Will there be refunds to original address for non-winning bids?

Thx TheJucie

The innovator is never properly rewarded.  He is forgotten under the accolades of those who make money from his innovations.
The block-chain is everything.
I am willing to pre-announce an end to the auction.  Will 24 or 48 hours of advance notice be enough? 
All non-winning auction bids will be refunded to the original payment address.

[theGECK]

You are funny. Unless one has 10 different addresses, each holding more bitcoins than bids aimed to be outbidden, there is no way he can own 10 shares.

When the auction opened, you could own 9 shares for 9 Satoshis.

For that to be true, I'd need to send 1 Satoshi from each of the 9 different addresses, than send more bitcoins individually for each and all addresses where my
bid was no longer the highest one.

That's precisely right, and how bitcoin auctions using the blockchain can differentiate between different bidders. How else can you validate yourself? Lets say we each sent in 3 transactions of .1 BTC. Lets also say that I'm not active in the forum, and then you come in and say that you sent in 5 transactions. Suddenly you've stolen my bids. Requiring the bid to be tied to the address is a great way to simplify bookkeeping on everybody's part and to keep your bitcoins safe from people like me who might say that I sent it in, and how would you prove that it was your transaction and not mine?

Let's complicate it more - only addresses starting with 1a2b3c are valid. I'm sure majority of bitcoiners would love it.

This statement makes no sense. Addresses are randomly generated and unique - there's no reason to have a qualification on address.

What you are saying is that I don't own 5 shares for 0.1 BTC each but just 1 share for which I paid 0.5 BTC already. Unless I use some new addresses to send bitcoins, I can bid on 1 and only 1 share - the one I own right now. Or I actualy own more than 1 share now, but I'd need to figure out how many bitcoins were sent from each of addresses I've used already, else there is no way for me to figure out anything? One who has 10 BTC split on 10.000 addresses already lost the auction? Unless one uses Armory, blockchain.info wallet or some other solution, he is pretty much screwed and might actualy seriously overpay the share.

LOL?

1st - I've not heard of armory before. I looked it up and it looks nice. Please let us know what client you are using - I am fairly certain that specifying sending address will be an option. But you are correct, right now you own a bunch of bids. There's time until the auction is over (Prof - this is the #1 question that you're not answering. Please answer it. It will make everybody happier.) and we can figure it out.

@ theGECK

You and Prof must be right, that is why there is incredible amount of interest in this offer. There are five pages of posts already not because it is unclear what is offer about or because the deal is overcomplicated but because people just love to post, they do it for fun or to increase post count.

You want to attract as many people as possible and have fun but you are making managing the offer convenient for you only, at all costs it seems. What a joke!

"Convenient for you only, at all costs".
1) Not sure how I got roped into this, since I'm not the one who set the rules. I just agree with them.
2) Seeing that what we're talking about is how Bitcoin has worked since day 1, I don't think that it's a matter of convenience for Prof. It's a matter of making sure that nobody can lay claim to bids in the future. If there's ever a dispute, whomever can send from that address owns the bid - conflict resolution becomes very simple.
3) Again, this is how Bitcoin works. You send coins from an address that you have the private key to sign the transactions. Please let us know what you're using and we'll help you figure it out.

[theGECK]

The block chain bidding is ideal. It makes the bids binding. In my auction for CH shares, I had a few bids that were not honored. Love the innovation profmac.

Too bad my auction took too long, I was gathering those coins to invest with you prof.

2 questions:

1) End date for the auction - there has to be one for me to bid.
2) Will there be refunds to original address for non-winning bids?

Thx TheJucie

The innovator is never properly rewarded.  He is forgotten under the accolades of those who make money from his innovations.
The block-chain is everything.
I am willing to pre-announce an end to the auction.  Will 24 or 48 hours of advance notice be enough? 
All non-winning auction bids will be refunded to the original payment address.

I would prefer the date be tied to something concrete, such as the arrival of the unit, and for 48 hours notice to happen. Personal preference, I'll be happy with anything that would make it certain.

[ProfMac]

The most of bitcoiners are using either Bitcoin-Qt or MultiBit, and you just excluded all of them from the auctions. I do not trust blockchain.info and I don't
want to mess with Armory since it crashes randomly on my WinXP computer, sometimes causing even system lockup. Unless I can participate using the most
widely used, trustable and stable solutions, I ain't gonna participate. You can send all my bitcoins back to any of those addresses which I used to place 0.1
BTC bids. Related transactions:

https://blockchain.info/tx/1df1ccf5d0f1f59d813d4283648a68ae3fb3db7f04697b9b2b0141cc954ab38f
https://blockchain.info/tx/d61a16dd4f407c493f70b022aee1d9266c01d617c7884be2312778634300948b
https://blockchain.info/tx/efe4576ba042ff44bf486dffd13c841bfc563da95ac88736ee5d066f9dccf732
https://blockchain.info/tx/30047845d2cdb04d3ade84f5a2d004a80aaaff01f9198861285191234237a897
https://blockchain.info/tx/36004fdfa95f8b1b7fb7481014d0c7b489d5f11ab53b7fb2da953b180d1e336e

I am corresponding in #bitcoin-dev about how to do this using bitcoin-QT.  
I will perfect the process with my own funds and addresses.
I will return your funds, each payment back to its original address.
I will write up the process.

The background reading is online.

There is a payment protocol document in the works.  I bookmarked it, but it's not on today's list.  I actually think my idea is better, and something like the PGP web of trust would also work well.  I am 0x17B56C41 or so in the PGP/GPG world.