[To Theymos and Mods] An honest concern (all trolling aside)

[smoothie]

I'm surprised that this forum (THEYMOS yes you or other mods) have not labeled BFL, Inaba, etc as scammers. Since when does BFL get a free pass when it comes to not meeting promised deadlines? Pirate was given 3 weeks and BFL is given 5 months? Something isn't right here.

BFL needs to be disallowed to advertise on this forum their BULLSHIT ads which are misleading saying "order now" as opposed to "preorder now".

Would it not be the same if PirateAt40 after stoping withdrawals in August decided to put up advertisements on this forum asking for funds from investors and in return giving them something (percent profit each week)?

How is BFL being allowed to put up misleading ads about a product (that still has to be proven to exist) on this forum any different than my "what if pirate" scenario?

This whole ordeal with BFL feels a lot like PirateAt40 but only 10 times bigger.

Watch out guys...I think the tsunami is on its way. You may not have felt the earthquake but the result is on its way.

Get your popcorn ready for a ton of shit to start flying should BFL continually delay or even run with the funds.

 

[1714185270]

1714185270

[1714185270]

1714185270

[1714185270]

1714185270

[smoothie]

Theymos openly said he thought pirate was a ponzi.

I doubt he thinks BFL is. Most of us do not think it is a scam but rather them just being massively incompetent.

I guess someone needs to define at what point is a incompetent operation considered a scam.

[🏰 TradeFortress 🏰]

Theymos openly said he thought pirate was a ponzi.

I doubt he thinks BFL is. Most of us do not think it is a scam but rather them just being massively incompetent.

I guess someone needs to define at what point is a incompetent operation considered a scam.

When they stop honoring refunds in USD?

[🏰 TradeFortress 🏰]

Theymos openly said he thought pirate was a ponzi.

I doubt he thinks BFL is. Most of us do not think it is a scam but rather them just being massively incompetent.

I guess someone needs to define at what point is a incompetent operation considered a scam.

When they stop honoring refunds in USD?

Their published policy is no refunds correct?

People who sent BFL after the fpga fail should have known what they were getting into. I see no reason why they should have a scammers tag at this point. I will be reasonable and listen to evidence however.

Actually, their published policy is no refunds. However, aren't there distance selling regulations? I'm not too sure since I'm not a lawyer and I'm not in the US either.

[🏰 TradeFortress 🏰]

Theymos openly said he thought pirate was a ponzi.

I doubt he thinks BFL is. Most of us do not think it is a scam but rather them just being massively incompetent.

I guess someone needs to define at what point is a incompetent operation considered a scam.

When they stop honoring refunds in USD?

Their published policy is no refunds correct?

People who sent BFL after the fpga fail should have known what they were getting into. I see no reason why they should have a scammers tag at this point. I will be reasonable and listen to evidence however.

Actually, their published policy is no refunds. However, aren't there distance selling regulations? I'm not too sure since I'm not a lawyer and I'm not in the US either.

This forum is not here to enforce some countries trade laws.

I'm not talking about the forum enforcing this, but aren't BFL legally obligated to offer refunds / cancels?

[theymos]

I don't really follow this stuff, but I've been hearing a lot of positive news about BFL recently, so I tend to think that it's probably not a scam. I'll reevaluate this if they haven't produced anything concrete by their current deadline.

While I might refuse their advertising, giving them a scammer tag is more complicated. I'm not sure what obligations and deadlines preordering implies. They'd probably have to stop all contact for several months for me to give them a scammer tag. I recommend against preordering anything from anyone in the Bitcoin community.

[00null]

What is their "current deadline"?

Isn't that always "next month"? At least it is since last September...

[Rampion]

What is their "current deadline"?

Isn't that always "next month"? At least it is since last September...

Yeah, preorder now and get your units sometime in June, or maybe sooner... That's have been their "preorder" schedule since the end of January.

[BadBear]

Asking for a scammer tag is a little premature, it isn't obviously a scam, just looks like some incompetent boobs who have very little experience, and at least they have delivered in the past. Handing out scammer tags every time someone doesn't meet a deadline is just going to drive businesses away and may even dissuade people from trying new ideas or funding that new start-up that looks promising.

We should be encouraging businesses and new innovations, not shrieking for scammer tags over customer service issues or terrible PR, or missed deadlines (although I'll admit it is getting a bit ridiculous).   

It would have to be at a point where they've either been unresponsive for a long time, or admitted they can't refund the money and can't deliver before I'd support a scammer tag.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending BFL or their actions, I just don't think a scammer tag is appropriate at the moment.

[Rampion]

I personally agree that a scammer tag is premature, but I think that banning their ads in this forum would be appropriate - at least until they start shipping. I mean, they are pumping in preorders at a crazy rate, we all know that, and a lot of newbies are sucked in by their aggressive advertising strategy. They don't even have a working prototype after months of preorders.

We all know this is a shame (or worst).

[BadBear]

I personally agree that a scammer tag is premature, but I think that banning their ads in this forum would be appropriate - at least until they start shipping. I mean, they are pumping in preorders at a crazy rate, we all know that, and a lot of newbies are sucked in by their aggressive advertising strategy. They don't even have a working prototype after months of preorders.

We all know this is a shame (or worst).

I think we would have to change the rules on the ads auction cuz I don't think BFL violates any of them.

Theymos can choose to not sell ads to whoever he pleases, but it's still covered, even in current auctions.

In order to collect more money for the creation of good forum software, the forum is selling ad space in the area beneath the first post of every topic page.

Ads are allowed to contain any non-annoying HTML/CSS style. No images, JavaScript, or animation (no marquee or blinking). Ads must appear 3 or fewer lines tall in my browser. Ads will be prefixed with "Advertisement:". Ad text may not contain lies, misrepresentation, or inappropriate language. Ads may not link directly to any NSFW page. Ads may be rejected for other reasons.

The one about lies and misrepresentation could also possibly apply, I don't know. 

[DutchBrat]

They always priced their goods in USD. They never accepted BTC directly (if at all).

They accepted Bitcoin by allowing it to be used as a currency for purchase. If that payment is then converted by a 3rd party, then that's not the consumers responsibility, that's the product supplier.
It could also be further argued that they do accept Bitcoin as they refund in Bitcoin.

If I went to amazon.com right now and used my credit card (in Thai Baht)  and bought a TV. Then 5 days later no TV and they give me a refund. Lets say in the 5 days Thai Baht goes up 400%. Do I get the Baht back?

I kinda doubt it but I really don't know.

I don't know either.

If I get some free time today I will call AMEX and ask the inverse question.  (Purchase on my us card in Baht that is refunded)

That is exactly how it works with credit cards.... I live in the UK, if I buy an item in NYC for $ and it breaks and I get a refund under my insurance I get the $ value back.... if the £ has moved in my favour then it is my gain, else it is my loss.... You buy something in $ so you get refunded in $.... simple as that

[John (John K.)]

They always priced their goods in USD. They never accepted BTC directly (if at all).

They accepted Bitcoin by allowing it to be used as a currency for purchase. If that payment is then converted by a 3rd party, then that's not the consumers responsibility, that's the product supplier.
It could also be further argued that they do accept Bitcoin as they refund in Bitcoin.

If I went to amazon.com right now and used my credit card (in Thai Baht)  and bought a TV. Then 5 days later no TV and they give me a refund. Lets say in the 5 days Thai Baht goes up 400%. Do I get the Baht back?

I kinda doubt it but I really don't know.

I don't know either.

If I get some free time today I will call AMEX and ask the inverse question.  (Purchase on my us card in Baht that is refunded)

That is exactly how it works with credit cards.... I live in the UK, if I buy an item in NYC for $ and it breaks and I get a refund under my insurance I get the $ value back.... if the £ has moved in my favour then it is my gain, else it is my loss.... You buy something in $ so you get refunded in $.... simple as that

Same here - I bought some stuff on ebay via Paypal some time ago and requested a refund when it didn't reach me. I was refunded a lower amount of money due to the difference in USD/local currency exchange rate too.

[Isokivi]

I guess someone needs to define at what point is a incompetent operation considered a scam.

Right about the time when they nolonger process refunds or accept chargebackable payments ?
[edit] This talk of btc refunds is absurd, fiat refunds are what you should expect.

[Phinnaeus Gage]

I guess someone needs to define at what point is a incompetent operation considered a scam.

Right about the time when they nolonger process refunds or accept chargebackable payments ?
[edit] This talk of btc refunds is absurd, fiat refunds are what you should expect.

If I buy something from you in BTC and return it as defective, what currency will you give me a refund in?

Or, if I buy something that cost one egg-laying hen, and the exchange rate depreciated 50%, how do I get half an egg-laying hen refunded if my something is defected?

[Isokivi]

If I buy something from you in BTC and return it as defective, what currency will you give me a refund in?

In the currency you paid, but not the same amount, exchange rate fluctuations apply. I first and foremost offer to re-ship the ordered item and to date this has been fine with my customers.

[Isokivi]

In BFL's case that currency was BTC.

And you actually have a product to send them.  Not a ranting bully of a COO who promises next week when there are a dozen milestones before shipping still to go.

True, but in my understanding most people who have been ranting about btc refunds from BFL work under the assumption they get the same amount of coin back.

I did briefly consider pursuing gold versions of my goods with pre-order btc. I didn't like the notion nor the position I would of have been putting myself in and quickly dismissed it.

[smoothie]

@Theymos and MODs,

The people have spoken on their thoughts on IF BFL is a scam:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=155730.0

[Syke]

I don't really follow this stuff, but I've been hearing a lot of positive news about BFL recently, so I tend to think that it's probably not a scam. I'll reevaluate this if they haven't produced anything concrete by their current deadline.

https://products.butterflylabs.com/featured-products/60gh-bitcoin-miner.html

initial shipping scheduled for the last half of March 2013.

I expect to not see a single more BFL ad as of 4/1.

[pyra-proxy]

If I buy something from you in BTC and return it as defective, what currency will you give me a refund in?

In the currency you paid, but not the same amount, exchange rate fluctuations apply. I first and foremost offer to re-ship the ordered item and to date this has been fine with my customers.

In BFL's case that currency was BTC.

And you actually have a product to send them.  Not a ranting bully of a COO who promises next week when there are a dozen milestones before shipping still to go.

In real life this is how it works, I have friends who use chinese credit cards on occasion to buy goods in the us of a and when they need to get a refund not only do they get hit with a second currency exchange fee but they also get the short end of the stick if currency exchange rates did not move in their favor.....   why is bfl/bitcoin any different?  Their goods are sold in the US and priced in US $ and they happen to offer a payment gateway interface with bit pay that allows you to provide US $ value via a bitcoin transfer much the same as a chinese national paying at a US of A mall with chinese rmb through the visa/MasterCard gateway for goods sold in the US of A and priced in US $.......