DIY PCB with AVALON: "The Quarter Stick" - Needs Help!

[allten]

From suggestions on previous posts. Here is my 3rd design pitch (the 1st was on another post that was then deleted by me)

Thanks to all for the input!

"simplicity is the ultimate sophistication" - Leonardo Da Vinci

[allten]

BitSyncom,

Have fun working on documentation, it sure is fun, fun, fun...

I'm willing to voluntarily contribute if you require additional help, ie, building a website with schematics and diy flow?

 

A website would be awesome! Do you have server hosting already available that could be utilized?

We need to come up with a good name for this.

Here's my first pitch: Avalon + Jalepeno = Javal

[funnow]

Why use something from existing??

Better try a new one.

[Bogart]

I am looking into purchasing a minimum (10,000) chip order and will wholesale them to any developers who can't afford an entire batch.

I'm interested in this.  Keep me informed please.

Thanks.

[SebastianJu]

What about the pricetag? It sounds like you want to give out ready made units. That again means you have to put in a good bunch of work once the groundwork of developing a design and creating the needed software is done. It still has to be created before it can be sold. So are these $25 only the price for the parts and the work is done voluntarely? I mean giving a construction plan and software to a noob doesnt work i think.

Anyway... many hurdles have to be taken. First a deliverer for the chips, then a working hardware layout, then the software. A prototype that works. That looks like a long way to go from here.

[allten]

What about the pricetag? It sounds like you want to give out ready made units. That again means you have to put in a good bunch of work once the groundwork of developing a design and creating the needed software is done. It still has to be created before it can be sold. So are these $25 only the price for the parts and the work is done voluntarely? I mean giving a construction plan and software to a noob doesnt work i think.

Anyway... many hurdles have to be taken. First a deliverer for the chips, then a working hardware layout, then the software. A prototype that works. That looks like a long way to go from here.

The work I'm putting into is free and voluntary. Maybe some bounties would help motivate others.
I'm speculating there's a lot of idle talent out there that is anxious to get involved. At least I hope
there is. I can take care of the first two hurdles you mentioned, but for firmware and software is
the point where I'll need a lot of help. We'll see how it progresses and I'll post all updates here.
If after a few weeks of effort it is still just me pushing the idea then it will be dead in the water; however,
the response so far as been really positive so I have high hopes of making it a reality. A little response
and support from the Avalon team would sure go a long ways and that hasn't happened yet.

Yeah, it's not for everyone to assemble these. The idea is any one can start building hundreds of these
and start distributing them however they want. And then there's the pride of saying you built your own
miner.

[allten]

$25 was a guess based on prices people posted earlier. It would be for parts only, I think.

Yes, parts only. $25.00 dollars sounds like a really good guess (assuming cheap ASIC chips, no USB cable, no PCB stand offs, and without the price of a heatsink).
I'm giving away the hardware design and don't expect compensation so there will be no NRE costs involved.
Purely voluntary and driven by bounties.

I'll work on a preliminary BOM (Bill Of Materials) and see what the price is going to be.

[SebastianJu]

What about the pricetag? It sounds like you want to give out ready made units. That again means you have to put in a good bunch of work once the groundwork of developing a design and creating the needed software is done. It still has to be created before it can be sold. So are these $25 only the price for the parts and the work is done voluntarely? I mean giving a construction plan and software to a noob doesnt work i think.

Anyway... many hurdles have to be taken. First a deliverer for the chips, then a working hardware layout, then the software. A prototype that works. That looks like a long way to go from here.

The work I'm putting into is free and voluntary. Maybe some bounties would help motivate others.
I'm speculating there's a lot of idle talent out there that is anxious to get involved. At least I hope
there is. I can take care of the first two hurdles you mentioned, but for firmware and software is
the point where I'll need a lot of help. We'll see how it progresses and I'll post all updates here.
If after a few weeks of effort it is still just me pushing the idea then it will be dead in the water; however,
the response so far as been really positive so I have high hopes of making it a reality. A little response
and support from the Avalon team would sure go a long ways and that hasn't happened yet.

Yeah, it's not for everyone to assemble these. The idea is any one can start building hundreds of these
and start distributing them however they want. And then there's the pride of saying you built your own
miner.

Im all fired up for the idea... Unfortunately the only thing i coded including hardware was some RFID-Reader and had already a ready made api for using it. So i think i wont be a big help at such fundamental hardware level.

Though i can imagine that some people will create such miners and will sell it to friends i really think that 97% of the asics coming out of this project will be used for creating big miners and i really think that only around 3% will be given away. Im relatively sure about this because once this is ready it will be a money making machine. So i think even when you have something different in mind i think it will work out mostly as a different thing.

[Transisto]

I thing the part of the design people will mostly want to modify and experiment with is cooling / overclocking, board placement and source of 12v power.

[marra]

BitSyncom,

Have fun working on documentation, it sure is fun, fun, fun...

I'm willing to voluntarily contribute if you require additional help, ie, building a website with schematics and diy flow?

 

A website would be awesome! Do you have server hosting already available that could be utilized?

We need to come up with a good name for this.

Here's my first pitch: Avalon + Jalepeno = Javal

I don't have anything related to bitcoins at the moment, but I have hosting at booomgame.com which could be subdomained and have access to systems of my former hosting company.

[loshia]

$25 was a guess based on prices people posted earlier. It would be for parts only, I think.

Yes, parts only. $25.00 dollars sounds like a really good guess (assuming cheap ASIC chips, no USB cable, no PCB stand offs, and without the price of a heatsink).
I'm giving away the hardware design and don't expect compensation so there will be no NRE costs involved.
Purely voluntary and driven by bounties.

I'll work on a preliminary BOM (Bill Of Materials) and see what the price is going to be.

allten,

Can you consider the option for 12V Molex power also.

My arguments - the PC PSU  at 12V (by design) has highest output in term of AMPS. The USb cable is crappy in most cases and it may turn out that wires are too thin for AMPs consumed by Avalon chips.  Having the option for 12V could make possible to use both three chips at full sped (clock) + Designing PCB with more than three chips in the feature + plus to add as many boards as we want to a single PSU.

About cooling every one of us will take care. In my personal opinion Passive cooling without airflow is not good at all. But it is just me. I will blow at radiators for sure ...

10X

[allten]

I thing the part of the design people will mostly want to modify and experiment with is cooling / overclocking, board placement and source of 12v power.

Good point. Might as well make it an option. Back to pitch #2.
Well, I haven't even started schematic yet so there's time to discuss.

[allten]

Update OP: April 1st 2013

Project is at a stand still until more details are released regarding
AVALON ASICs. I was hoping to encourage BitSyncom to just
give us a few preliminary details in the forum so we could make
sure the hardware design was appropriate. Unfortunately,
That has not happened.

Instead of waiting until complete and official Spec's are available
online I would like to ask anyone with an AVALON that has skills
with an oscilloscope and ohm meter to please help with this.
Shouldn't take too long.

I wanted to offer a bounty, but then I remembered anyone with
an Avalon probably wouldn't be motivated for anything less than
a Bitcoin.

Here are the spec's available so far:
https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Avalon#Chip_Specification


What is needed?

1) Pin out for all 48 pins. What pins are ground? What Pins are power? Clock pins? Data pins? etc.

2) Do the ASICs have a frequency multiplier? What is the frequency on the core clock pin? Internal
    core clocked is spec'ed around 256 MHZ

3) What is the data bandwidth on the clock/data lines? Just need to know what the clock
    frequency is for the clock pins and that would be sufficient.

Bonus: are there any serial communication protocols being used: SPI, I2C, Proprietary, etc.?

Thanks!

[loshia]

Update OP: April 1st 2013

Project is at a stand still until more details are released regarding
AVALON ASICs. I was hoping to encourage BitSyncom to just
give us a few preliminary details in the forum so we could make
sure the hardware design was appropriate. Unfortunately,
That has not happened.

Instead of waiting until complete and official Spec's are available
online I would like to ask anyone with an AVALON that has skills
with an oscilloscope and ohm meter to please help with this.
Shouldn't take too long.

I wanted to offer a bounty, but then I remembered anyone with
an Avalon probably wouldn't be motivated for anything less than
a Bitcoin.

Here are the spec's available so far:
https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Avalon#Chip_Specification
What is needed?

1) Pin out for all 48 pins. What pins are ground? What Pins are power? Clock pins? Data pins? etc.

2) Do the ASICs have a frequency multiplier? What is the frequency on the core clock pin? Internal
    core clocked is spec'ed around 256 MHZ

3) What is the data bandwidth on the clock/data lines? Just need to know what the clock
    frequency is for the clock pins and that would be sufficient.

Bonus: are there any serial communication protocols being used: SPI, I2C, Proprietary, etc.?

Thanks!

Dude,
I will be glad to do it but i do not have enough skils ans osciloscope also

Ngzhang please put a word here when you can. Thank you very much in advance.

[SebastianJu]

No answer from avalon or bfl till now. I hope they only discuss the price...

[samborambo]

allten,

Can you consider the option for 12V Molex power also.

My arguments - the PC PSU  at 12V (by design) has highest output in term of AMPS. The USb cable is crappy in most cases and it may turn out that wires are too thin for AMPs consumed by Avalon chips.  Having the option for 12V could make possible to use both three chips at full sped (clock) + Designing PCB with more than three chips in the feature + plus to add as many boards as we want to a single PSU.

About cooling every one of us will take care. In my personal opinion Passive cooling without airflow is not good at all. But it is just me. I will blow at radiators for sure ...

10X

Nope. The core runs at 1.2V, not 12V. That means a 12V - 1.2V DC-DC converter will need to added to the BOM, significantly increasing the cost of a 'stock' device. If you're after processing power density for your serious mining operation, go buy an Avalon mining rig.

Maybe the direction of this project has changed but I saw this as a way of getting hashing power and Bitcoins into EVERYONE's hands, not just greedy profit driven serious miners (like myself, too, I admit). We're aiming to have only slightly worse ROI than a full rig to encourage long term use.

My personal view is that USB stick miners will be incredibly popular and will eventually account for more hashing power than mining rigs/farms. The main reason is risk, or the the lack of it. The average person has no problem spending $20 on a punt; lotteries, betting and gambling are clear evidence of this. But what if this $20 punt was several orders of magnitude better odds than gambling? Make these units accessable - put them in a big dump stack at every 7-11 right next to the lottery poster. You'll sell millions.

Sam.

[SebastianJu]

My personal view is that USB stick miners will be incredibly popular and will eventually account for more hashing power than mining rigs/farms. The main reason is risk, or the the lack of it. The average person has no problem spending $20 on a punt; lotteries, betting and gambling are clear evidence of this. But what if this $20 punt was several orders of magnitude better odds than gambling? Make these units accessable - put them in a big dump stack at every 7-11 right next to the lottery poster. You'll sell millions.

Thats what i dont get yet. How will it happen that these sticks will become such a big part of the net? I mean $25 is a good price... for a ready made stick. If you hand out a plan and 3 chips then i know for sure that 99% will let it lie in the corner because of the work. So it would need many hours of work to get all these sticks ready made for selling. That would either mean the price is rising or it means you would need many volunteers that work for free. I believe that will be a hard task.

[samborambo]

My personal view is that USB stick miners will be incredibly popular and will eventually account for more hashing power than mining rigs/farms. The main reason is risk, or the the lack of it. The average person has no problem spending $20 on a punt; lotteries, betting and gambling are clear evidence of this. But what if this $20 punt was several orders of magnitude better odds than gambling? Make these units accessable - put them in a big dump stack at every 7-11 right next to the lottery poster. You'll sell millions.

Thats what i dont get yet. How will it happen that these sticks will become such a big part of the net? I mean $25 is a good price... for a ready made stick. If you hand out a plan and 3 chips then i know for sure that 99% will let it lie in the corner because of the work. So it would need many hours of work to get all these sticks ready made for selling. That would either mean the price is rising or it means you would need many volunteers that work for free. I believe that will be a hard task.

Yep, that would have to be a ready-built, consumer grade (eg: idiot proof) product, like I said;

*snip*

I'm not a fan of making a through-hole soldering kit. Way too geeky and more expensive than a fully built and tested SMT device.  While work with 250MHz, physical wiring tolerances are a concern. A large blob of solder in the wrong place may be OK at DC but at 250MHz, couples signals to other tracks. Happy to help with an SMT design.

*snip*

That means the software needs to be super easy, too. If the economics stack up, we could include enough flash memory for the mining software in Java. Just pop the stick in, the mining software auto-starts with no user intervention. The software generates a new address on first start up and after every sweep transaction. Sweeping the address can only be done with significant user intervention. True plug'n'play.

Sam.

[shmadz]

very interesting, I wish you the best of luck.

My input?

-- $25 is a very attractive price point, 19.99 is perhaps better, but I don't think anyone would balk at $25. I think that's the sweet spot.

-- Single chip, usb design, keep it simple as possible. Include a CD with automated install of cgminer (or perhaps just a website with the needed downloads and instructions to set it up) My point is that you need to make this ridiculously easy. I know this kinda stuff seems easy to us, but not one of my friends or family have been able to get over the technical wall of bitcoin yet... Even when I offer to help them set it up, they still say, "nah, forget it, it's too much work"

-- biggest problem that I see, is that it needs to be passively cooled, I don't expect you would want the extra power drain and bloated size from running a fan or whatever. not sure if this is going to be able to run passively.


If you could build a device like that, everyone I know would be getting them for christmas!

[tbd]

I think the majority of us agree -- it should be a simple, "idiot proof" device.  Plug-n-play with the software integrated would be great.

Major stumbling block is sourcing ASICs.  Not much response on that front from Avalon.  They may be more forthcoming once their next generation chip is out.

What probability would you give to a kickstarter project for building ASICs and simple mining devices getting funded?  Any other ideas?