how can BFL still be advertising on the forum

[mokahless]

this is why the bitcoin community sort of sucks its full of scammers with no checks on their manipulations of people... nobody is held responsible.  if people actually knew those BFL guys like luke they'd probably hassle em for real answers, and they may even get a solid ass whooping if they refused to pose any evidence.

that is the dark side of complete anonymity... 

Huh?

People know the BFL guys.  Their address is public, and Josh said that anyone is welcome to visit them, just so long as they set up an appointment beforehand.  BFL is far from an anonymous company.  They have given real answers as to the delays.  I don't know what else a person could expect from them, other than more reasonable estimates of time in the future.

That is good to know. It's only 15 hours from here, I will seriously drive over there and document the trip with photos on this forum this month.

Sweet!  It wouldn't hurt to get some more pictures and another user account of visiting.  So far, Kano & Luke Jr have been the only ones to visit (that I know of).

And Kano posted pictures on his website kano-kun.net
BFL did say anyone could visit so I believe if you talk to them they will let you tour. It would be cool to see newer pictures.

[ar9]

I'm relatively new to the BitCoin realm and within about 1.5 hours of researching, it became quite apparent to me that BFL is operating fraudulently.

Personally, I'm less surprised at the fact that they're a sham, and much, much more surprised that people still believe they are real.  I must say, the founder of BFL and his/her constituents function as the absolute epitome of successful opportunists.

They saw a massive demand for a product, substantiated in a high-risk/high-reward marketplace, isolated the characteristics of their marketshare (risk-takers) and took the plunge.  I would argue (assuming I am right in ascertaining their scam) that this was one of the most successful scams in history, not because of the amount of money they will receive, but because of the ramifications and their ability to conduct this scam under a veil of anonymity that is the very core value of Bitcoin.

Quite intriguing, to say the very least.  I hope for the sake of Bitcoin and those who invested, it is not a scam.

[SgtSpike]

I'm relatively new to the BitCoin realm and within about 1.5 hours of researching, it became quite apparent to me that BFL is operating fraudulently.

Personally, I'm less surprised at the fact that they're a sham, and much, much more surprised that people still believe they are real.  I must say, the founder of BFL and his/her constituents function as the absolute epitome of successful opportunists.

They saw a massive demand for a product, substantiated in a high-risk/high-reward marketplace, isolated the characteristics of their marketshare (risk-takers) and took the plunge.  I would argue (assuming I am right in ascertaining their scam) that this was one of the most successful scams in history, not because of the amount of money they will receive, but because of the ramifications and their ability to conduct this scam under a veil of anonymity that is the very core value of Bitcoin.

Quite intriguing, to say the very least.  I hope for the sake of Bitcoin and those who invested, it is not a scam.

So, you say that it is "quite apparent to me that BFL is operating fraudulently", and state that "they're a sham" as fact, even going so far as to say "this was one of the most successful scams in history", and yet you end with "I hope ... it is not a scam".

Why state they are a scam as fact when you yourself don't even fully believe it?  Instead of saying "they're a sham," say "I believe they're a sham."  Stating facts that are not necessarily true is a great way to expose yourself to libel/slander lawsuits.

Anyway, are you certain enough that they are a scam that you are willing to put money on it?  Because I am certain enough that they are not a scam to put money on it.

[chiropteran]

I find it a little humerous that the ads still claim a 60gh/sec single is $1299 when it's actually only 50gh and near double the price.

[cancis]

this is why the bitcoin community sort of sucks its full of scammers with no checks on their manipulations of people... nobody is held responsible.  if people actually knew those BFL guys like luke they'd probably hassle em for real answers, and they may even get a solid ass whooping if they refused to pose any evidence.

that is the dark side of complete anonymity... 

Huh?

People know the BFL guys.  Their address is public, and Josh said that anyone is welcome to visit them, just so long as they set up an appointment beforehand.  BFL is far from an anonymous company.  They have given real answers as to the delays.  I don't know what else a person could expect from them, other than more reasonable estimates of time in the future.

That is good to know. It's only 15 hours from here, I will seriously drive over there and document the trip with photos on this forum this month.

Sweet!  It wouldn't hurt to get some more pictures and another user account of visiting.  So far, Kano & Luke Jr have been the only ones to visit (that I know of).

Hell, I live 15 minutes from their office. Will do daily checkups for hire

[ar9]

I'm relatively new to the BitCoin realm and within about 1.5 hours of researching, it became quite apparent to me that BFL is operating fraudulently.

Personally, I'm less surprised at the fact that they're a sham, and much, much more surprised that people still believe they are real.  I must say, the founder of BFL and his/her constituents function as the absolute epitome of successful opportunists.

They saw a massive demand for a product, substantiated in a high-risk/high-reward marketplace, isolated the characteristics of their marketshare (risk-takers) and took the plunge.  I would argue (assuming I am right in ascertaining their scam) that this was one of the most successful scams in history, not because of the amount of money they will receive, but because of the ramifications and their ability to conduct this scam under a veil of anonymity that is the very core value of Bitcoin.

Quite intriguing, to say the very least.  I hope for the sake of Bitcoin and those who invested, it is not a scam.

So, you say that it is "quite apparent to me that BFL is operating fraudulently", and state that "they're a sham" as fact, even going so far as to say "this was one of the most successful scams in history", and yet you end with "I hope ... it is not a scam".

Why state they are a scam as fact when you yourself don't even fully believe it?  Instead of saying "they're a sham," say "I believe they're a sham."  Stating facts that are not necessarily true is a great way to expose yourself to libel/slander lawsuits.

Anyway, are you certain enough that they are a scam that you are willing to put money on it?  Because I am certain enough that they are not a scam to put money on it.

Take it down a notch, soldier.

I have no vested interests in BFL one way or another, I'm merely a spectator.  I thought I illustrated my viewpoint from the get-go and I was speaking in absolutes under the premise of an assumption, so I think that is where lines got crossed.

No, I'm not willing to bet any thing on their validity.  It's possible that they ship eventually some units, no doubt, do you think they will be able to ship the number of units they have pre-sold?

Admittedly I am basing this off zero manufacturing experience, but if they're struggling releasing one unit in 7 months, chances of them releasing 20,000+ (or more?) units of varying architecture in the near future seems like a long-shot. 

[V4Vendettas]

Ok well I just gave these guys a ring.

No evidence that anyone has got any of these because they haven't shipped yet.
They did point out that this is not the first generation they have done and they have delivered on these previous generations. Can anyone confirm this?

Considering placing an order but until I can find some evidence they can deliver I’m very hesitant.
The call ended with me being told the only thing that will convince me is when I read the reviews when people start getting them.

He might be right.

[KGambler]

They did point out that this is not the first generation they have done and they have delivered on these previous generations. Can anyone confirm this?

Intentionally or not, they misled you.  They sold FPGA mining hardware.  They have not delivered any ASICs at any time.

I should also mention that I have read that they did not build the FPGAs, but just acted as middlemen.  Someone who knows more about BFL can clarify that point.

[Luke-Jr]

Ignore the trolls. I've had my Little Single (ASIC) for nearly a week now, and it's working fine.
Even if the rest of the devices haven't shipped yet, it's obvious there is a product and only a fool would claim they aren't going to deliver.

[SgtSpike]

I'm relatively new to the BitCoin realm and within about 1.5 hours of researching, it became quite apparent to me that BFL is operating fraudulently.

Personally, I'm less surprised at the fact that they're a sham, and much, much more surprised that people still believe they are real.  I must say, the founder of BFL and his/her constituents function as the absolute epitome of successful opportunists.

They saw a massive demand for a product, substantiated in a high-risk/high-reward marketplace, isolated the characteristics of their marketshare (risk-takers) and took the plunge.  I would argue (assuming I am right in ascertaining their scam) that this was one of the most successful scams in history, not because of the amount of money they will receive, but because of the ramifications and their ability to conduct this scam under a veil of anonymity that is the very core value of Bitcoin.

Quite intriguing, to say the very least.  I hope for the sake of Bitcoin and those who invested, it is not a scam.

So, you say that it is "quite apparent to me that BFL is operating fraudulently", and state that "they're a sham" as fact, even going so far as to say "this was one of the most successful scams in history", and yet you end with "I hope ... it is not a scam".

Why state they are a scam as fact when you yourself don't even fully believe it?  Instead of saying "they're a sham," say "I believe they're a sham."  Stating facts that are not necessarily true is a great way to expose yourself to libel/slander lawsuits.

Anyway, are you certain enough that they are a scam that you are willing to put money on it?  Because I am certain enough that they are not a scam to put money on it.

Take it down a notch, soldier.

I have no vested interests in BFL one way or another, I'm merely a spectator.  I thought I illustrated my viewpoint from the get-go and I was speaking in absolutes under the premise of an assumption, so I think that is where lines got crossed.

No, I'm not willing to bet any thing on their validity.  It's possible that they ship eventually some units, no doubt, do you think they will be able to ship the number of units they have pre-sold?

Admittedly I am basing this off zero manufacturing experience, but if they're struggling releasing one unit in 7 months, chances of them releasing 20,000+ (or more?) units of varying architecture in the near future seems like a long-shot. 

Fair enough.

I absolutely believe they will ship the number of units they have pre-sold.  They have far more chips than they need, and everything else is easy enough to get a hold of.  They would have no reason not to ship all of the pre-sold units.  There aren't 20,000 units pre-sold - that is a false rumor that continues to propagate across this forum, despite being disproved over and over again.  As of January 2013, the pre-orders would consume less than 20,000 of their chips.  That's less than 2,500 Single SC's.  Undoubtedly, with the increase in price, people are ordering more units, but even still, I very much doubt the number of pre-orders surpasses 5,000 orders.  The order numbers are high because it creates a new order number every time someone clicks to order, regardless of whether they pay for it or not.

Ok well I just gave these guys a ring.

No evidence that anyone has got any of these because they haven't shipped yet.
They did point out that this is not the first generation they have done and they have delivered on these previous generations. Can anyone confirm this?

Considering placing an order but until I can find some evidence they can deliver I’m very hesitant.
The call ended with me being told the only thing that will convince me is when I read the reviews when people start getting them.

He might be right.

I would certainly wait until other people start getting them if you are unconvinced of their legitimacy.  There's very little reason not to at this point.

[Minor Miner]

Ignore the trolls. I've had my Little Single (ASIC) for nearly a week now, and it's working fine.
Even if the rest of the devices haven't shipped yet, it's obvious there is a product and only a fool would claim they aren't going to deliver.

Luke;   I think you should be FAIR because the people asking are obviously not familiar with the whole history.   You do not HAVE your device do you?   Has that changed?  You are implying that you have one and it is operating on your desk.   I think it would be more fair to clearly state:
"I have been remotely operating a device that is set up in the BFL offices to test my software on, it has been hashing for a week".

I do not think this is nit picking.

[cancis]

Ignore the trolls. I've had my Little Single (ASIC) for nearly a week now, and it's working fine.
Even if the rest of the devices haven't shipped yet, it's obvious there is a product and only a fool would claim they aren't going to deliver.

Luke;   I think you should be FAIR because the people asking are obviously not familiar with the whole history.   You do not HAVE your device do you?   Has that changed?  You are implying that you have one and it is operating on your desk.   I think it would be more fair to clearly state:
"I have been remotely operating a device that is set up in the BFL offices to test my software on, it has been hashing for a week".

I do not think this is nit picking.

Yeah, Luke, you need to be very clear here buddy. I wasn't picking teams before, but your posts are well within the definition of "intentionally misleading" if you don't have an actual, physical BFL ASIC sitting in your possession.

[Luke-Jr]

Sorry, when I could have had it on my desk a long time ago if I chose to, I think claiming my choice to request they wait is somehow relevant, is very much nitpicking.

[Minor Miner]

Sorry, when I could have had it on my desk a long time ago if I chose to, I think claiming my choice to request they wait is somehow relevant, is very much nitpicking.

I disagree.   There have been a number of people asking whether they should buy a machine from BFL and they cite that BFL is shipping already.   I do not care about this bet nonsense (and wish that thread would die) but implying in any way that they are indeed shipping so a pre-order now is safe to assume two month delivery is VERY dishonest.  Like it or not, you insistence that they have started shipping actual product is making people feel comfortable with the posting delivery dates on BFL's site (which change regularly as you know).   This is not about convincing me or some bettor that they "shipped" it is about people who google ASIC mining and end up here while they consider making a $2000 purchase for something they believe has already shipped.

[deadweasel]

Sorry, when I could have had it on my desk a long time ago if I chose to, I think claiming my choice to request they wait is somehow relevant, is very much nitpicking.

Luke, you're alright.  You've been helpful when explaining things to me.  You do a lot for the 'community'.

People don't like that these posts describe you being in possession of a BFL ASIC device that has been hashing for weeks.  I'd like to think that it's not intentional.  But given the circus around BFL, any statements that are perceived as misleading are misleading.

I'd suggest you specify, for clarity (you have a large frothing audience at this point  ), that you are only remotely connected to this rig which resides in the BFL office...   this is critical information to the frothing masses and forgetting to add this when discussing your 'possession' of the device is misleading.

I hope you do get it in your possession soon and it hashes efficiently for a long time.   Good Luck!

[Minor Miner]

Sorry, when I could have had it on my desk a long time ago if I chose to, I think claiming my choice to request they wait is somehow relevant, is very much nitpicking.

Dude;
as much as I admire you, the above is simply not true and we both know it.  "I could have had it on my desk a long time ago if I chose to"
At best you could have had it on your desk TUESDAY, 2 days ago, if they overnighted it to you on monday.   It was not working before then or they would not have waited "to test your software".

[wtfvanity]

Ignore the trolls. I've had my Little Single (ASIC) for nearly a week now, and it's working fine.
Even if the rest of the devices haven't shipped yet, it's obvious there is a product and only a fool would claim they aren't going to deliver.

Luke;   I think you should be FAIR because the people asking are obviously not familiar with the whole history.   You do not HAVE your device do you?   Has that changed?  You are implying that you have one and it is operating on your desk.   I think it would be more fair to clearly state:
"I have been remotely operating a device that is set up in the BFL offices to test my software on, it has been hashing for a week".

Wow Lukey, you're a little weasel. For some reason I thought you were religious.

We should give and we will receive full measure, flowing down into the folds of our clothing, because the measure with which we measure will be measured back to us.

Luke 6:31 And as you wish that others would do to you, do so to them

Matthew 5:37 Let what you say be simply Yes or No; anything more than this comes from evil.

[KGambler]

Ignore the trolls. I've had my Little Single (ASIC) for nearly a week now, and it's working fine.
Even if the rest of the devices haven't shipped yet, it's obvious there is a product and only a fool would claim they aren't going to deliver.

I wouldn't ignore the so-called "trolls".  I would the ignore the guy who keeps telling lies about "receiving" and "having" a BFL ASIC.  Especially because BFL has been paying this guy since early 2012. 

It is not obvious they have a product.  A product is not various components laying loose on a work bench.  That is not a "Little Single".  It is a proto-type. 

Will they deliver?  I guess it depends on how fast they are burning cash, how patient their customers/suppliers/investors are, etc.  For all we know they have burned through their cash and already owe suppliers significant sums.  Luke, have your pay checks been clearing no problem?

It's also possible that they attempt to deliver a sub-standard product a day late and a dollar short.  It could easily be months before they begin shipping products.

[BTCLuke]

Sorry, when I could have had it on my desk a long time ago if I chose to, I think claiming my choice to request they wait is somehow relevant, is very much nitpicking.

The problem is that letting people think it's sitting on your desk paints the picture of a FINISHED PRODUCT sitting in its' case on your desk, many miles away from BFL labs.

...The truth is that an UNFINSIHED PILE OF PARTS is sitting on their lab bench, and if you ever do bring it home one day, it'll likely only be half or less of those parts that make it into your product.

So it's very, very misleading to say you've "had yours" for a week... It leads everyone to assume that BFL has made a finished product when they clearly have not.

[Viceroy]

Sorry, when I could have had it on my desk a long time ago if I chose to, I think claiming my choice to request they wait is somehow relevant, is very much nitpicking.

The problem is that letting people think it's sitting on your desk paints the picture of a FINISHED PRODUCT sitting in its' case on your desk, many miles away from BFL labs.

...The truth is that an UNFINSIHED PILE OF PARTS is sitting on their lab bench, and if you ever do bring it home one day, it'll likely only be half or less of those parts that make it into your product.

So it's very, very misleading to say you've "had yours" for a week... It leads everyone to assume that BFL has made a finished product when they clearly have not.

I'd like to see a direct response to this. Where is the picture?  Is it in your possession or are you accessing it remotely?