Is BitCoinPlus a scam?

[BitCoinBarter]

To All,

Is BitCoinPlus (BCP)* a scam? 
I think it is. What is your thoughts?

Before I list my reasons why I believe it to be so, I want to write the following:

--Yes, I know that for bitcoin mining, BCP is not the best (that is if you think of BCP as mining). 

I choose this method because I wanted to do something and this seemed to fit.
I do not have the cash to get a GPU mining rig. I do not have a powerful computer (it is a laptop), and solo mining with a CPU will take some time (i.e., possible years). From my understanding, solo mining with a CPU has been took away from the latest version of bitcoin (or if it is still there, you will have to do a little work through CLI to make it do it).

I understand that even with BCP, I was only going to get a small amount.   
If I was to add up the cost of electricity and wear and tear on my computer, then I would have realized that it would have been easier and less costly to buy some bitcoins. 

Luckily, I can't add. 
 
--I have some other reasons, however this is enough.

Why do I think it is a scam? After I receive my first payout (that is what it is called on the site) with BCP, I tried to transfer this amount 0.00011152 to my bitcoin address.

On their Send Money page, it says the the minimum is 0.01 to send. This is the only place on the site that states this.
I should have stopped then, however...

To get up to 0.01, it took me at least 80 payouts. The payout amount dropped to 0.00008549 during this.

Well now it was time to get my bitcoins (Ok, a small piece of one bitcoin). Right?
Wrong. I tried to send 0.01004777 and was told that I did not have enough to make that payment because of a transaction fee of 0.01. Huh??

As before, this information is only available to me until I try to transfer bitcoins.

As long as I don't try to transfer, then I guess the site is good.

I contacted the site through e-mail.

Short answer. The minimum to transfer is 0.02 with a 0.01 fee (as of the time of this write, it does not say this on the site). 
0.02 - 0.01 = 0.01  That is half. My math is not that bad.
There is not an amount that would wavier the fee.

Also from their email response. They "...should make it easier find out about the fee...Sorry..."
Sorry? Yea, I have been had.

* BTC can be found at http://www.bitcoinplus.com/

[lionclaw]

Maybe.... ?

[Yankee (BitInstant)]

WOW. If this is true, its really bad business ethics on their part, possibly some legal ramifications

I'm eager to see BitCoinPlus's response to this...

[chodpaba]

The philosophy behind Bitcoin Plus seems to be that it should be difficult to become wealthy. That if it is hard for some, it should be hard for all.

[BinaryMage]

I would just suggest using a desktop mining client such as Ufasoft and connecting to a pool such as Deepbit, you'll make more money and you won't get scammed.

[EpicFail]

I don't think it is a "scam", per se. Just a very inefficient way to get Bitcoins. Maybe it appeals to people who can't be bothered to figure out how to set up a CPU miner and join a pool?

[BitCoinBarter]

WOW. If this is true, its really bad business ethics on their part, possibly some legal ramifications

I'm eager to see BitCoinPlus's response to this...

Yankee,

It is true. As proof, I can forward my email to them and their response. 
I could even copy and paste them here if anyone wants.

For their response, I hope it is different from their response to me.

Also, do you (or anyone) know if there is there a watch list of some sort that I can put BitCoinPlus on?

[Yankee (BitInstant)]

WOW. If this is true, its really bad business ethics on their part, possibly some legal ramifications

I'm eager to see BitCoinPlus's response to this...

Yankee,

It is true. As proof, I can forward my email to them and their response. 
I could even copy and paste them here if anyone wants.

For their response, I hope it is different from their response to me.

Also, do you (or anyone) know if there is there a watch list of some sort that I can put BitCoinPlus on?

Post the email here, I'd like to take a read.

There isn't yet, but maybe this would be a good start

[pointbiz]

I've used bitcoinplus and thought it was a friendly entry point into mining. Their Java client gave me about 1/3 the speed of a windows command line client. So I know it's not the most efficient.
I was able to withdraw 0.01 but that was weeks ago... from your story it sounds like things have changed...

[CaseyHeinzism]

I have been trying that to and the generating program stops a lot when I am not looking...
So far no luck to getting to a single bitcoin .. but if there fees are that high then it is worthless for me.. none of my friends trust the bitcoin mining so a pool is out of the question for me .. - Casey

[BitCoinBarter]

I don't think it is a "scam", per se. Just a very inefficient way to get Bitcoins. Maybe it appeals to people who can't be bothered to figure out how to set up a CPU miner and join a pool?

EpicFail,

Scam may be a bit strong. I think it is not strong enough, however that is me... (being the scammed one)

What would you call it?

Yes it is a very inefficient way to get BitCoins.  I knew that coming in.
What I didn't know is that you have to collect payouts up to at least 0.02 (with a 0.01 fee).
If I knew that coming in, then I would not have started this thread.

It is not listed on the site. I could be in error (would not be the first time).
Could you locate that information for me and direct me to it? I assume it would be in a FAQ, however I could not find it.

For the can't be bothered to figure it out comment. Well, you are correct (in my case). 
I tried, however It was a bit much for me. Hopefully, you (or someone else) could direct me to a link (that would help me and has instructions).

My computer skills are not where they should be. I am using Ubuntu 11.04 (forced from Windows because of BestBuy [longer story]) with the Unity interface. Unity doesn't seem to like the bitcoin client. While researching, I stumbled onto BCP and decided to go the easy (i.e., inefficient) route. Silly me.

Help anyone?

[phillipsjk]

The minimun transaction size the default client will process is in the process of being changed. You may just have to wait a few days.

[ANN] Bitcoin version 0.3.23 released

• Transaction fee reduced to 0.0005 for new transactions (see note below)
• Client will relay transactions with fees as low as 0.0001 BTC (see note below)

NOTE:  There has been some fee confusion recently.  Free transactions are supported and relayed as they always have been, according to special anti-spam rules.  See https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Transaction_fees for details.

If bitcoinplus does not allow smaller transactions, you may want to ask them to change their policy in light of this.

[static]

i tried it. it either stops or keeps logging me out.

[CaseyHeinzism]

Murray that is what it has been doing to me as well..

[elements]

It is some sort of scam. At least it's extremly SHADY!

Like you said - there is no information provided on the site, that firstly you have to collect at least 0.01 BTC to make a transfer.
(you get this info once you got a payout to your BitcoinPlus account and try to make a transfer)

Secondly, they don't say anything about a transfer fee (not until you have more then 0.01 collected and try to transfer them to your wallet).

Thirdly, once you have enough to make a payout they tell you that you can only transfer multiples of 0.01 BTC (so all the fractional BTCs from third to eighth digit stay with BitcoinPlus).

Since this info is only revealed in steps and not upfront, the result is, that a lot of people who eagerly started "mining" there will be so frustrated that they stop and BitcoinPlus can keep the VERY HARD EARNED BTC-Fractions. But if many people do this - this is a nice extra income for the creator of the site.

In order to redeem himself I suggest, that he reduces the transfer fee according to the current minimum fee of 0.0005 BTC, offers anyone who has a positive balance to transfer all, which can be transfered (I don't know if the client already supports transfers for all eight digits) to his or hers wallet AND to ANNOUNCE any Fees and other restrictions in the FAQ.

Otherwise this site should be immediatly BLACKLISTED. (I don't know how many people have already fried ther precious laptops trying to get some BTC there!)

- happy mining elswhere

[opticbit]

I have almost .015 btc.

I have messaged admin a few times bout features and other issues and have gotten quick responses.

just tried to withdraw some, need to wait till .02 btc, I'll wait till .0005 transaction fee update.

[BitCoinBarter]

I have almost .015 btc.
 
I have messaged admin a few times bout features and other issues and have gotten quick responses.

just tried to withdraw some, need to wait till .02 btc, I'll wait till .0005 transaction fee update.

opticbit,

I received a quick response to my emails. It was comforting, however nothing changed. Still today, you can not easily find out about these hidden fees.

It reminds me of one of the greatest swindler of all time. He was so good, that people still remember him today even after his death in 1946. Some people may not know of Charles Ponzi, however many have heard of a Ponzi scheme. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Ponzi

I remember reading that even when it was revealed that he was scamming people, he stilled convinced some people that all is right with the world.

Since I have stopped mining with them, they will say (my guess) that I should have continued.
If I continue, I assume something like this would happen when I get to the magically .02 transfer amount.    

I'm sorry, the moon was not aligned with Mars and this has caused a problem with the transfer. This is not our problem, we can not control the planets. This problem should be resolved by Dec 21, 2012. Please be patient and keep mining. To make up for this, we will eat the .01 transfer fee as the cost of doing business (Which is what I think they should have done, since these conditions were not disclosed).

[BitcoinPorn]

I like the BitCoinPlus set up, however, I will continue to use Bitp.it until I see changes on their end.

[BitCoinBarter]

Post the email here, I'd like to take a read.

Sorry Yankee,

Somehow I missed your post. Below are the emails:

1st email: Me to BitCoinPlus

from   BitCoin Barter [REDACTED]
sender-time   Sent at 6:50 PM (GMT-07:00). Current time there: 1:41 PM. ✆
reply-to    [REDACTED]
to   donny@bitcoinplus.com
date   Wed, Jun 8, 2011 at 6:50 PM
subject   Please change your policy.
mailed-by    [REDACTED]
hide details Jun 8
To whom it my concern,

Today, I tried to transfer 0.01004777 BTC to 1NGuhwEbykkkMUFMsiegP2QfKG4LVUH9GM

I chose this amount because the first time I tried to transfer (after my first payout) I was informed that the minimum amount is 0.01 BTC.
-Granted I found this on the Send Money page when I wanted to transfer BTC.

Now I am told that I can not transfer BTC because of a 0.01 transaction fee.
-Granted I found this after I tried to complete my transaction.

Does this mean that the minimum to transfer is 0.02 and 0.01 will be lost?

If true, please change your policy. If I understand correctly, the fee is imposed from the BitCoin network.
If you can not do anything about this, then I fell that BitCoinPlus should pay the fine as a part of business.

It is my understanding that you are charging members BTC for using your service.
Could you not pay the fee from the BTC you are getting from the members?

Why do I say this? I did not find out this information until I tried to transfer BTC.
It is not easily located on your site and I feel people should not find out this information when they are going to make a transaction. That makes it seems like fraud (e.g., a bait and switch).

I hope to hear from you soon.


Do no evil,

[REDACTED-Part of signature]

2nd email: BitCoinPlus to Me

from   Donny Nadolny donny@bitcoinplus.com
sender-time   Sent at 5:48 AM (GMT-04:00). Current time there: 5:05 PM. ✆
to   [REDACTED]
date   Thu, Jun 9, 2011 at 5:48 AM
subject   Re: Please change your policy. [GishPuppy]
   Important because you marked it as important.
hide details Jun 9
Hi,

It really is sad that I've had to charge this fee. For the first few weeks that I ran the site, I didn't charge it at all, I covered the fee as a part of doing business. Unfortunately, almost everybody who was sending money was making transfers of 0.01 or 0.02 BTC. I only charge a 3% fee for coin generation, so when people withdraw 0.01 and I have to pay a 0.01 BTC fee, it would mean I'd have to charge a 50% fee. I'd rather not increase the precent I take from coin generation, instead letting people save up large amounts so the fee isn't as bad.

I should make it easier find out about the fee, you're right.

Sorry about that,
Donny

[REDACTED-1st email]

3rd email:  Me to BitCoinPlus

from   BitCoin Barter [REDACTED]
sender-time   Sent at 1:13 PM (GMT-07:00). Current time there: 2:16 PM. ✆
reply-to   [REDACTED]
to   Donny Nadolny <donny@bitcoinplus.com>
date   Thu, Jun 9, 2011 at 1:13 PM
subject   Re: Please change your policy. [GishPuppy]
mailed-by   [REDACTED]
   Important because you marked it as important.
hide details Jun 9
Dear Donny,

Thanks for taking the time to respond.

You answered most of questions except one (at least not directly).
Does this mean that the minimum to transfer is 0.02 and 0.01 will be lost?
If that is true, what amount (if any) would let the transfer go through without the fee (another question :-)?

I assume (I don't have much experience with BTC), this fee is because of the amount of transferring in your account.
i.e., People who do not have a lot of activity will not not have to pay that fee.
e.g., Grandma (who doesn't have much activity) would not be charged 0.01 when sending 0.0003 BTC to her grandson. 

Is the above true? If so, you may be able to side step the fees by creating many accounts.
Of course doing this will create more moving parts (i.e., accounts).

Also could you send me some links (and post them on your site) that explains some of these things?
I want to learn.

If there is anything that I can do to help, please let me know.

Do no evil,

[REDACTED-Part of my signature and 2nd email]

4th email: (and last) from BitCoinPlus to Me

Donny Nadolny donny@bitcoinplus.com
sender-time   Sent at 6:24 AM (GMT-04:00). Current time there: 5:26 PM. ✆
to   [REDACTED]
date   Sun, Jun 12, 2011 at 6:24 AM
subject   Re: Please change your policy. [GishPuppy] [GishPuppy]
   Important because you marked it as important.
hide details Jun 12
Hi,

Yes, the minimum transfer at the moment is 0.02 and 0.01 would be lost (to the bitcoin network - not to me). Right now I don't have an amount that you can send that won't be charged a fee.

The fee is based on a few factors, like the amount, and the time since last activity, so people who don't have much activity wouldn't have to pay.

If you had lots of accounts with money in them, you wouldn't be charged fees because you'd always have an account with very little activity.

If I get some time I might post on my site about these things.

Thanks for emailing me,
Donny [REDACTED-Number1,2 and 3 emails]

As of today, Donny still has not made any changes on the site (at least none that I can see).
As proof, I tried to transfer BTC today and received this (instead of BTCs):

    You may only make transfers in multiples of 0.01 BTC
    You do not have enough to make that payment. There is a transaction fee of 0.01 BTC (see why).

The see why links shows:

Fees
There is a transaction fee of 0.01 BTC. This fee does not go to me. The bitcoin network calculates fees based on lots of factors, like how big the transaction is, how long ago the account made a transaction, and more. Because my account has been making lots of small transfers, I've been getting charged 0.01 BTC for every person that withdrew bitcoin. Unfortunately I need to start passing on this transaction fee.

[bitcon]

this is why i stopped using bitcoinplus.   i was at .00544534 with them before i started GPU mining.  i saw that their minimum payout was .01 btc so i decided to continue to use my GF's laptop to try to get it to .01 so i could cash out and at least get something for the hours i'd spent mining there.  then i noticed the withdraw fee of .01 and realized that even if i made it to .01 in BTC, i would lose my .01 BTC to their "fee" and i would have nothing left for me.  someone should DDoS that effin scammer.