Is BitCoinPlus a scam?

[BitCoinBarter]

To All,

Is BitCoinPlus (BCP)* a scam? 
I think it is. What is your thoughts?

Before I list my reasons why I believe it to be so, I want to write the following:

--Yes, I know that for bitcoin mining, BCP is not the best (that is if you think of BCP as mining). 

I choose this method because I wanted to do something and this seemed to fit.
I do not have the cash to get a GPU mining rig. I do not have a powerful computer (it is a laptop), and solo mining with a CPU will take some time (i.e., possible years). From my understanding, solo mining with a CPU has been took away from the latest version of bitcoin (or if it is still there, you will have to do a little work through CLI to make it do it).

I understand that even with BCP, I was only going to get a small amount.   
If I was to add up the cost of electricity and wear and tear on my computer, then I would have realized that it would have been easier and less costly to buy some bitcoins. 

Luckily, I can't add. 
 
--I have some other reasons, however this is enough.

Why do I think it is a scam? After I receive my first payout (that is what it is called on the site) with BCP, I tried to transfer this amount 0.00011152 to my bitcoin address.

On their Send Money page, it says the the minimum is 0.01 to send. This is the only place on the site that states this.
I should have stopped then, however...

To get up to 0.01, it took me at least 80 payouts. The payout amount dropped to 0.00008549 during this.

Well now it was time to get my bitcoins (Ok, a small piece of one bitcoin). Right?
Wrong. I tried to send 0.01004777 and was told that I did not have enough to make that payment because of a transaction fee of 0.01. Huh??

As before, this information is only available to me until I try to transfer bitcoins.

As long as I don't try to transfer, then I guess the site is good.

I contacted the site through e-mail.

Short answer. The minimum to transfer is 0.02 with a 0.01 fee (as of the time of this write, it does not say this on the site). 
0.02 - 0.01 = 0.01  That is half. My math is not that bad.
There is not an amount that would wavier the fee.

Also from their email response. They "...should make it easier find out about the fee...Sorry..."
Sorry? Yea, I have been had.

* BTC can be found at http://www.bitcoinplus.com/

[1715277239]

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[1715277239]

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[lionclaw]

Maybe.... ?

[Yankee (BitInstant)]

WOW. If this is true, its really bad business ethics on their part, possibly some legal ramifications

I'm eager to see BitCoinPlus's response to this...

[chodpaba]

The philosophy behind Bitcoin Plus seems to be that it should be difficult to become wealthy. That if it is hard for some, it should be hard for all.

[BinaryMage]

I would just suggest using a desktop mining client such as Ufasoft and connecting to a pool such as Deepbit, you'll make more money and you won't get scammed.

[EpicFail]

I don't think it is a "scam", per se. Just a very inefficient way to get Bitcoins. Maybe it appeals to people who can't be bothered to figure out how to set up a CPU miner and join a pool?

[BitCoinBarter]

WOW. If this is true, its really bad business ethics on their part, possibly some legal ramifications

I'm eager to see BitCoinPlus's response to this...

Yankee,

It is true. As proof, I can forward my email to them and their response. 
I could even copy and paste them here if anyone wants.

For their response, I hope it is different from their response to me.

Also, do you (or anyone) know if there is there a watch list of some sort that I can put BitCoinPlus on?

[Yankee (BitInstant)]

WOW. If this is true, its really bad business ethics on their part, possibly some legal ramifications

I'm eager to see BitCoinPlus's response to this...

Yankee,

It is true. As proof, I can forward my email to them and their response. 
I could even copy and paste them here if anyone wants.

For their response, I hope it is different from their response to me.

Also, do you (or anyone) know if there is there a watch list of some sort that I can put BitCoinPlus on?

Post the email here, I'd like to take a read.

There isn't yet, but maybe this would be a good start

[pointbiz]

I've used bitcoinplus and thought it was a friendly entry point into mining. Their Java client gave me about 1/3 the speed of a windows command line client. So I know it's not the most efficient.
I was able to withdraw 0.01 but that was weeks ago... from your story it sounds like things have changed...

[CaseyHeinzism]

I have been trying that to and the generating program stops a lot when I am not looking...
So far no luck to getting to a single bitcoin .. but if there fees are that high then it is worthless for me.. none of my friends trust the bitcoin mining so a pool is out of the question for me .. - Casey

[BitCoinBarter]

I don't think it is a "scam", per se. Just a very inefficient way to get Bitcoins. Maybe it appeals to people who can't be bothered to figure out how to set up a CPU miner and join a pool?

EpicFail,

Scam may be a bit strong. I think it is not strong enough, however that is me... (being the scammed one)

What would you call it?

Yes it is a very inefficient way to get BitCoins.  I knew that coming in.
What I didn't know is that you have to collect payouts up to at least 0.02 (with a 0.01 fee).
If I knew that coming in, then I would not have started this thread.

It is not listed on the site. I could be in error (would not be the first time).
Could you locate that information for me and direct me to it? I assume it would be in a FAQ, however I could not find it.

For the can't be bothered to figure it out comment. Well, you are correct (in my case). 
I tried, however It was a bit much for me. Hopefully, you (or someone else) could direct me to a link (that would help me and has instructions).

My computer skills are not where they should be. I am using Ubuntu 11.04 (forced from Windows because of BestBuy [longer story]) with the Unity interface. Unity doesn't seem to like the bitcoin client. While researching, I stumbled onto BCP and decided to go the easy (i.e., inefficient) route. Silly me.

Help anyone?

[phillipsjk]

The minimun transaction size the default client will process is in the process of being changed. You may just have to wait a few days.

[ANN] Bitcoin version 0.3.23 released

• Transaction fee reduced to 0.0005 for new transactions (see note below)
• Client will relay transactions with fees as low as 0.0001 BTC (see note below)

NOTE:  There has been some fee confusion recently.  Free transactions are supported and relayed as they always have been, according to special anti-spam rules.  See https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Transaction_fees for details.

If bitcoinplus does not allow smaller transactions, you may want to ask them to change their policy in light of this.

[static]

i tried it. it either stops or keeps logging me out.

[CaseyHeinzism]

Murray that is what it has been doing to me as well..

[elements]

It is some sort of scam. At least it's extremly SHADY!

Like you said - there is no information provided on the site, that firstly you have to collect at least 0.01 BTC to make a transfer.
(you get this info once you got a payout to your BitcoinPlus account and try to make a transfer)

Secondly, they don't say anything about a transfer fee (not until you have more then 0.01 collected and try to transfer them to your wallet).

Thirdly, once you have enough to make a payout they tell you that you can only transfer multiples of 0.01 BTC (so all the fractional BTCs from third to eighth digit stay with BitcoinPlus).

Since this info is only revealed in steps and not upfront, the result is, that a lot of people who eagerly started "mining" there will be so frustrated that they stop and BitcoinPlus can keep the VERY HARD EARNED BTC-Fractions. But if many people do this - this is a nice extra income for the creator of the site.

In order to redeem himself I suggest, that he reduces the transfer fee according to the current minimum fee of 0.0005 BTC, offers anyone who has a positive balance to transfer all, which can be transfered (I don't know if the client already supports transfers for all eight digits) to his or hers wallet AND to ANNOUNCE any Fees and other restrictions in the FAQ.

Otherwise this site should be immediatly BLACKLISTED. (I don't know how many people have already fried ther precious laptops trying to get some BTC there!)

- happy mining elswhere

[opticbit]

I have almost .015 btc.

I have messaged admin a few times bout features and other issues and have gotten quick responses.

just tried to withdraw some, need to wait till .02 btc, I'll wait till .0005 transaction fee update.

[BitCoinBarter]

I have almost .015 btc.
 
I have messaged admin a few times bout features and other issues and have gotten quick responses.

just tried to withdraw some, need to wait till .02 btc, I'll wait till .0005 transaction fee update.

opticbit,

I received a quick response to my emails. It was comforting, however nothing changed. Still today, you can not easily find out about these hidden fees.

It reminds me of one of the greatest swindler of all time. He was so good, that people still remember him today even after his death in 1946. Some people may not know of Charles Ponzi, however many have heard of a Ponzi scheme. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Ponzi

I remember reading that even when it was revealed that he was scamming people, he stilled convinced some people that all is right with the world.

Since I have stopped mining with them, they will say (my guess) that I should have continued.
If I continue, I assume something like this would happen when I get to the magically .02 transfer amount.    

I'm sorry, the moon was not aligned with Mars and this has caused a problem with the transfer. This is not our problem, we can not control the planets. This problem should be resolved by Dec 21, 2012. Please be patient and keep mining. To make up for this, we will eat the .01 transfer fee as the cost of doing business (Which is what I think they should have done, since these conditions were not disclosed).

[BitcoinPorn]

I like the BitCoinPlus set up, however, I will continue to use Bitp.it until I see changes on their end.

[BitCoinBarter]

Post the email here, I'd like to take a read.

Sorry Yankee,

Somehow I missed your post. Below are the emails:

1st email: Me to BitCoinPlus

from   BitCoin Barter [REDACTED]
sender-time   Sent at 6:50 PM (GMT-07:00). Current time there: 1:41 PM. ✆
reply-to    [REDACTED]
to   donny@bitcoinplus.com
date   Wed, Jun 8, 2011 at 6:50 PM
subject   Please change your policy.
mailed-by    [REDACTED]
hide details Jun 8
To whom it my concern,

Today, I tried to transfer 0.01004777 BTC to 1NGuhwEbykkkMUFMsiegP2QfKG4LVUH9GM

I chose this amount because the first time I tried to transfer (after my first payout) I was informed that the minimum amount is 0.01 BTC.
-Granted I found this on the Send Money page when I wanted to transfer BTC.

Now I am told that I can not transfer BTC because of a 0.01 transaction fee.
-Granted I found this after I tried to complete my transaction.

Does this mean that the minimum to transfer is 0.02 and 0.01 will be lost?

If true, please change your policy. If I understand correctly, the fee is imposed from the BitCoin network.
If you can not do anything about this, then I fell that BitCoinPlus should pay the fine as a part of business.

It is my understanding that you are charging members BTC for using your service.
Could you not pay the fee from the BTC you are getting from the members?

Why do I say this? I did not find out this information until I tried to transfer BTC.
It is not easily located on your site and I feel people should not find out this information when they are going to make a transaction. That makes it seems like fraud (e.g., a bait and switch).

I hope to hear from you soon.


Do no evil,

[REDACTED-Part of signature]

2nd email: BitCoinPlus to Me

from   Donny Nadolny donny@bitcoinplus.com
sender-time   Sent at 5:48 AM (GMT-04:00). Current time there: 5:05 PM. ✆
to   [REDACTED]
date   Thu, Jun 9, 2011 at 5:48 AM
subject   Re: Please change your policy. [GishPuppy]
   Important because you marked it as important.
hide details Jun 9
Hi,

It really is sad that I've had to charge this fee. For the first few weeks that I ran the site, I didn't charge it at all, I covered the fee as a part of doing business. Unfortunately, almost everybody who was sending money was making transfers of 0.01 or 0.02 BTC. I only charge a 3% fee for coin generation, so when people withdraw 0.01 and I have to pay a 0.01 BTC fee, it would mean I'd have to charge a 50% fee. I'd rather not increase the precent I take from coin generation, instead letting people save up large amounts so the fee isn't as bad.

I should make it easier find out about the fee, you're right.

Sorry about that,
Donny

[REDACTED-1st email]

3rd email:  Me to BitCoinPlus

from   BitCoin Barter [REDACTED]
sender-time   Sent at 1:13 PM (GMT-07:00). Current time there: 2:16 PM. ✆
reply-to   [REDACTED]
to   Donny Nadolny <donny@bitcoinplus.com>
date   Thu, Jun 9, 2011 at 1:13 PM
subject   Re: Please change your policy. [GishPuppy]
mailed-by   [REDACTED]
   Important because you marked it as important.
hide details Jun 9
Dear Donny,

Thanks for taking the time to respond.

You answered most of questions except one (at least not directly).
Does this mean that the minimum to transfer is 0.02 and 0.01 will be lost?
If that is true, what amount (if any) would let the transfer go through without the fee (another question :-)?

I assume (I don't have much experience with BTC), this fee is because of the amount of transferring in your account.
i.e., People who do not have a lot of activity will not not have to pay that fee.
e.g., Grandma (who doesn't have much activity) would not be charged 0.01 when sending 0.0003 BTC to her grandson. 

Is the above true? If so, you may be able to side step the fees by creating many accounts.
Of course doing this will create more moving parts (i.e., accounts).

Also could you send me some links (and post them on your site) that explains some of these things?
I want to learn.

If there is anything that I can do to help, please let me know.

Do no evil,

[REDACTED-Part of my signature and 2nd email]

4th email: (and last) from BitCoinPlus to Me

Donny Nadolny donny@bitcoinplus.com
sender-time   Sent at 6:24 AM (GMT-04:00). Current time there: 5:26 PM. ✆
to   [REDACTED]
date   Sun, Jun 12, 2011 at 6:24 AM
subject   Re: Please change your policy. [GishPuppy] [GishPuppy]
   Important because you marked it as important.
hide details Jun 12
Hi,

Yes, the minimum transfer at the moment is 0.02 and 0.01 would be lost (to the bitcoin network - not to me). Right now I don't have an amount that you can send that won't be charged a fee.

The fee is based on a few factors, like the amount, and the time since last activity, so people who don't have much activity wouldn't have to pay.

If you had lots of accounts with money in them, you wouldn't be charged fees because you'd always have an account with very little activity.

If I get some time I might post on my site about these things.

Thanks for emailing me,
Donny [REDACTED-Number1,2 and 3 emails]

As of today, Donny still has not made any changes on the site (at least none that I can see).
As proof, I tried to transfer BTC today and received this (instead of BTCs):

    You may only make transfers in multiples of 0.01 BTC
    You do not have enough to make that payment. There is a transaction fee of 0.01 BTC (see why).

The see why links shows:

Fees
There is a transaction fee of 0.01 BTC. This fee does not go to me. The bitcoin network calculates fees based on lots of factors, like how big the transaction is, how long ago the account made a transaction, and more. Because my account has been making lots of small transfers, I've been getting charged 0.01 BTC for every person that withdrew bitcoin. Unfortunately I need to start passing on this transaction fee.

[bitcon]

this is why i stopped using bitcoinplus.   i was at .00544534 with them before i started GPU mining.  i saw that their minimum payout was .01 btc so i decided to continue to use my GF's laptop to try to get it to .01 so i could cash out and at least get something for the hours i'd spent mining there.  then i noticed the withdraw fee of .01 and realized that even if i made it to .01 in BTC, i would lose my .01 BTC to their "fee" and i would have nothing left for me.  someone should DDoS that effin scammer.

[ex0420]

I use BCP and I have never had a problem. I use their embeded JS miner in my website and I get a nice 0.1 to 0.3BTC every week now. It takes around 2000 visitors to get that and even then it's pure luck mostly. As for paying out, i never tryied paying out a bitcent so I can't say but I have no problem getting 0.1 or more out.

[BitcoinPorn]

I use it on two sites (prominently displaying that I use it), both links in my signature.  I am pleased with those emails explaining it.  The amount of random math that guy has probably had to do to work out something that is realistic for him to run the site and to be able to pay people out must be hell.

[JoelKatz]

The fee is per transaction, not per recipient. Assuming he's paying 10 people at a time out of a block he mined a few hours ago, he never would have to pay anywhere near .01 per recipient. Maybe it's a scam, but maybe he's just too lazy to group his transactions. If he keeps doing very small payouts from the same block, he's doing one transaction per payout and they're all going to be with newish coins.

[Bitcoinreminder.com]

I use it on two sites (prominently displaying that I use it), both links in my signature.  I am pleased with those emails explaining it.  The amount of random math that guy has probably had to do to work out something that is realistic for him to run the site and to be able to pay people out must be hell.

+1

[BitCoinBarter]

The fee is per transaction, not per recipient. Assuming he's paying 10 people at a time out of a block he mined a few hours ago, he never would have to pay anywhere near .01 per recipient. Maybe it's a scam, but maybe he's just too lazy to group his transactions. If he keeps doing very small payouts from the same block, he's doing one transaction per payout and they're all going to be with newish coins.

JK,

I read your post and was stunned.

The fee is per transaction. Why would it not be grouped?
Laziness or scamming? Guess what I would say  .

This is not bring up the fact that the fees are now down to 0.0005 (if I am correct).

[bizzy]

Assuming you get say 3 Mhash/s through bitcoinplus.com on a really beefy machine (guessing some might get that, but my machine only manages 0.6Mhash/s), you generate around 4 cents per day (according to http://www.alloscomp.com/bitcoin/calculator.php at current difficulty 1.37m). I would only get 0.8cents per day.

I expect results for power usage on other machines won't be much less than mine (http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=24278.msg301400#msg301400), which worked out to be 24W (the difference between running idle and running at 100% CPU). 1 day's usage would use around 0.58kWh (which costs me around 10 cents) - your electricity would need to be about 4 cents/kWh to just break even.

It Is Not Economical!

It would admittedly have some value as an introduction for new users to bitcoins if they could get a very low payout like the bitcoin faucet, but when the website owner insists on paying a 0.01 transaction fee it's likely to just put people off. (0.01BTC may have been appropriate a month ago, but it no longer is. For reference, the eligius pool will only process transactions with a minimum transaction fee of about 0.00004096, though I'm not 100% sure I've got the number of decimal places).

Further, I would consider it unethical to have users generate coins through an embedded miner on a 3rd party website without the users understanding that they are going to end up paying extra on their power bill.

I put this challenge to bitcoinplus.com -
1. Provide a clear notice to users indicating the transaction fee required
2. Reduce the transaction fee amount - if this means a delay in users getting payment, I think most would favour it (you could even give the users a choice so that they set their own priority)

[BitCoinBarter]

I use BCP and I have never had a problem. I use their embeded JS miner in my website and I get a nice 0.1 to 0.3BTC every week now. It takes around 2000 visitors to get that and even then it's pure luck mostly. As for paying out, i never tryied paying out a bitcent so I can't say but I have no problem getting 0.1 or more out.

I didn't have a problem with BCP until I tried to get BTC. Then I had problems.

[elements]

Complete and utter scam!

Now that the min. transaction fee has been lowered I tried to finally extract my very hard earned 0.01074649 BTC (took about 6 full days on a MBP)...still takes 0.01 BTC transaction fee.

Looks like he is going to keep my coins for good (and those of uncountable others)!

SCAM - stay away!!!

[BitCoinBarter]

(0.01BTC may have been appropriate a month ago, but it no longer is. For reference, the eligius pool will only process transactions with a minimum transaction fee of about 0.00004096, though I'm not 100% sure I've got the number of decimal places).

I started with BCP on May 31, 2011 12:18 PM PDT and went to Jun 13, 2011 9:53 PM PDT (Their records).
Total payouts generated: 115 (Their records).
Balance: 0.01175757 BTC (Their records)

Total amount into my wallet from them: 0.00000000 (My records).

[BitCoinBarter]

I use it on two sites (prominently displaying that I use it), both links in my signature.  I am pleased with those emails explaining it.  The amount of random math that guy has probably had to do to work out something that is realistic for him to run the site and to be able to pay people out must be hell.

+1

-2

[gochk]

I have had similar experiences with Bitcoinplus.com
I mined (only when I have my computer on and working on other things) for 3 weeks, yes, 3 long weeks (difficulty rate reduced twice) to get to 0.01xxxx and when I tried to withdraw, the writings was there (FIRST TIME that I read it if I may add) ... 0.01 fee and not enough funds to withdraw.

Plus, I think the btc payout is much less than the pool mining; currently at 0.00003516 btc / share.

I totally agree that BitCoinPlus.com is a scam.

I have since stopped ... not going to use my computer power even when I'm doing other things and no extra electricity is involved. Other than that, there are no regulations to btc. What are you going to do?

[BitCoinBarter]

Plus, I think the btc payout is much less than the pool mining; currently at 0.00003516 btc / share.

This means that it will take people longer to get to the magical non-payoff amount of 0.01.

[gochk]

Plus, I think the btc payout is much less than the pool mining; currently at 0.00003516 btc / share.

This means that it will take people longer to get to the magical non-payoff amount of 0.01.

Exactly.

Hopefully the newbies coming in will read your thread and not fell for that. It's certainly very discouraging and a drag for btc

[BitcoinPorn]

Not a scam. Not being used properly, ie, an individual user mining for themselves makes no sense.

As a replacement for advertisement on an ad heavy site, that would be awesome.   See my signature for an example.   I have an adult site which is more or less just a proof of concept until I have time to make something bigger and more focused.  Think of the pop up heavy torrent sites with false click ads and etc.  Fuck that bullshit, give up a little electricity for the web sites you are using, people do not know how much work goes into a decent site, and how little people click on ads.

I am not all about browser embedding should be on Wikipedia or something, though in a way, why not eliminate all the donate buttons, make the mining optional, and I guarantee enough of the visitors will gladly be giving up their electricity for the whole.

I will only say that BitcoinPlus could easily clarify their fees and overall structure, but they sure do not have to and they never say they are earning you cash, they are just earning you Bitcoin, it is up to you if you want to pay through their site rather than just running the OG client.

[BitCoinBarter]

Not a scam. Not being used properly, ie, an individual user mining for themselves makes no sense.

Making sense is not the point. Disclosure is the point.

I will only say that BitcoinPlus could easily clarify their fees and overall structure, but they sure do not have to and they never say they are earning you cash, they are just earning you Bitcoin, it is up to you if you want to pay through their site rather than just running the OG client.

That is generous. The fact is that BCP does not "clarify" their fees and overall structure.

they never say they are earning you cash, they are just earning you Bitcoin

True. I was earning BitCoin which was not given to me.
Think of it like this. You have a job.

The first time you go to get paid (i.e., you earned your first payout), you are told that you did not work long enough (i.e., you need at least 0.01 before we will transfer BTC to you). Odd, you think. This was not brought up before, however...

Then you work long enough and go to get paid again (i.e., you get at least 0.01). Now you are told that you can not get paid because of a tax (i.e., a transaction fee). Odd again. You would think that would have been brought up the last time.

To get paid now, you would have to continue to work (i.e., 0.02). Of course if you choose to get paid then, you would have to give up have of your money (i.e., BTC) to taxes (i.e., transaction fees). You have found out that the taxes has dropped (0.0005?), however they are still going to charge you the old rate (i.e., 0.01).

The question now is, should you continue to work and hope something else does come up*?

it is up to you if you want to pay through their site rather than just running the OG client.

Not sure what you mean by this. Please explain.

I would write this. BCP has "abused" me.

Since you are not a stranger to porn, I give you permission to change the word "abused" to someyhing that you may feel is more suited to the situation  .

* You are only told things when you are trying to get paid (i.e., transfer BTC to yourself). When you get to 0.02, you could be told something like, "Sorry, we can not transfer BTC to you because the moon is not aligned to Mars. It is not our fault, we can not control the planets. The alignment will be on this date (i.e., 0.03).

[BitcoinPorn]

Without picking apart your post, which is tempting lol, I will say I feel bad for the situation.  I can step back and realize that if I were not knowing fully the situation on web based browsing, and was presented with their site, I would easily think that the benefits of browsing on a single computer would outweigh the cost of the electricity used to generate the Bitcoin.

Random thought, when the site was started the cost to generate a coin itself was much less I'm sure.

[BitCoinBarter]

I would easily think that the benefits of browsing on a single computer would outweigh the cost of the electricity used to generate the Bitcoin.

I did not think that and that is not the point I'm trying to prove (which I'm not doing a good job of doing).
I went there under the (mis)understanding that I could get BitCoins.

You believe (if I am correct), that it is not a scam. I assume that you have received BTC into your wallet(s) from them. Is this correct?

If so, have you done it lately?

Assuming this is yes to both questions, then that does not make it not a scam. It just means that you were paid. I suggest you get your BTC from them as soon as you can. Why? Would it hurt you to assume that I am right (just in case)?

I assume you have much more knowledge about BTC and websites then I do. Take that knowledge and go BCP's site.
Assuming you know nothing about BCP, however you still have your knowledge.  You then decide* that you wanted to use that site to generate BTCs for you.

Will you know the following?:

That when you get a payout (this is what it is called on their site), you can not transfer that to your wallet until you get at least 0.01 BTC.

That once you get to 0.01 BTC, you can not have any BTC transferred to your wallet because of fees.  You may wonder why they are charging 0.01 since this was lowered with the newest BTC client.

If you know things things, then how would a less knowledge knowledgeable person know this? Could you provide some links?

What could I do? I could take the owner of the site to court. The problem with that is the following:

-The amount of money in BTC (for the amount I was cheated out of) is worth is less then $1.00.
-It will cost at least $25.00 (my guess) to fill a small case claim.
-I will have to hire a P.I. to find the owner and pay to have them served. Not sure how much that would cost, however I guess it would be more then $25.00
-They would not show up in court and I would get a default judgement for $1. Hopefully the judge will also award me court costs.

Will I do that? No and this is why the scam is good. Very few (if any) people will do that for less then $1.00.
The scam counts on this. Keep in mind, that a penny (i.e., $0.01) is a small amount. Even with times being hard as it is, everyone can come up with a penny. As small amount of money that is, I would love it if everyone in the world gave me a penny. It would add up.

BCP is scamming people, a little BTC at a time.
That is wrong, even if they are not scamming everyone (assuming you are not being scammed yet).  

* Set aside the reasons why it is not a good ideal to do this. Maybe it was because of a bet. Maybe you got drunk and/or stoned.

[BitcoinPorn]

I wouldn't cash out at such a low number, I now see another difference between us and this situation lol. 

[BitCoinBarter]

I wouldn't cash out at such a low number, I now see another difference between us and this situation lol. 

Thank you for responding.
You are right, it is a difference.

I don't consider it cashing out. I consider it removing my BTC from their control, to my control.

Could you please respond again and answer the following questions?

I assume that you have received BTC into your wallet(s) from them. Is this correct?
If so, have you done it lately?

Would it hurt you to assume that I am right (just in case)?

Do you own or have another type of relationship with BCP?

Assuming you know nothing about BCP, will you know the following (by going to their site)?:

-That when you get a payout (this is what it is called on their site), you can not transfer that to your wallet until you get at least 0.01 BTC.

-That once you get to 0.01 BTC, you can not have any BTC transferred to your wallet because of fees.
-Why the fees are 0.01 vice the now lower amount?

-If you know things things, then how would a less knowledgeable person know this?
-Could you provide some links?

[PandaMiner]

The same thing happened to me when I first started with them early this month.  I traded emails with Donny, too. And he was like "yeah, I guess it does seem scammy" and "I'll have to put it on there" but never did. He has 0.0100413 of MY bitcoins.  But I say Karma's a bitch.  So I let him keep it.

(Started on June 9th, and generated 143 baby payouts)

[DiamondPlus]

hrmm

[BitcoinPorn]

Could you please respond again and answer the following questions?

Actually no.  I am not representing BitcoinPlus, so I am keeping further information regarding myself and that site out, because I can see how my posts seem.  I have no personal affiliation tied with them past being a user on their site, I like their technology, and I still feel you are kind of over attacking them for something that still seems to me to slight user error.

And the line of questioning is going down a weird path "Would it hurt you to assume" lol, I assure you, I am attempting to put my shoes on the other foot with a lot of posts on this, but it is hard to take completely serious when you are considering taking a person to small claims court over time you spent mining digital currency but not at the rates in which it was advertised (I can also do a devils advocate regarding the client dropping the fees and how that type of algorithm still has yet to be worked out on their site or in the miner, hey, it's possible).

Before them I was using the Bitp.it browser miner (check my posts, I did not use BitcoinPlus solely for very similar reasons you were stating as far as clarity and their fees and I have even said that I wouldn't, yet now I do).   The one time I did see someone complain about something, the owner was in the forums correcting the situation, unfortunately that project has been put down so the owner can focus on his pool.  The code is open source.  I always look for threads of people interested in browser mining.

I am really sorry about your situation, but this whole thread is based on attacking a guy over his extremely poorly advertised, 18 cent USD fee, which is now should only 9 cents, coupled with some here may not have known that the 9 cents they were mining for was costing them far more.    Scam is just a big word that should be reserved for sites that deserve it, I see BCP's fuck ups, I still don't see it as a scam what so ever.

[BitQuestr (BitCoinWorldMarket)]

I agree with bitcoinporn.

It is easy to make a big deal out of it when you are talking on pennies to a dollar. Yes he may have not updated the transaction fee to .0005 but the client was only updated to allow that just a couple weeks ago.

Talking about getting scammed out of less than .50 cents worth of money seems a bit ridiculous to me. Most website affiliate programs don't pay out unless your commissions are over $50. I would have a hard time taking claims of scamming serious if the amount was under a dollar.

His program is much more akin to an affiliate payment program than a mining program. If you have no traffic to your site then the current transaction fee he charges of .01 will eat most of your (pennies) of profit. You ate wasting your time if you are only mining using your CPU.

Personally I like his idea a lot and if it was developed to give the website user a choice to shut it off or turn it on to donate I think it will be a great way to get people excited about bitcoin mining and the idea of engaging in the bitcoin economy.

Don't try to ruin this fledgling bitcoin business by yelling scam when it is only over pennies.

[BitCoinBarter]

Could you please respond again and answer the following questions?

Actually no.  I am not representing BitcoinPlus, so I am keeping further information regarding myself and that site out, because I can see how my posts seem. 

I can understand how you would not like to answer any questions about yourself. What I don't understand is why you will not answer questions about BCP (if you are not representing them). I also don't understand "how your post my seem" is a reason why not to answer.

I came to this forum to learn (first) and to help others (if I can). This thread is to teach (beware of BCP).

I assume you came to this forum for the same reasons. Another reason you may have come is to promote your site. I don't have a problem with that, I just wish that I could also promote something. My BitCoin address that is located in my signuature is not doing it  .

I like their technology

So do I. I admit that I don't understand it.
What I do understand is that they are not doing what they should. They promise something (BTC) and are not delivering (or at least putting up so many roadblocks that you don't want them to deliver).

I still feel you are kind of over attacking them for something that still seems to me to slight user error.

This is something else I don't understand. If you would have answered my questions, then I may have understood (beating a dead horse, I know).

Was my error is that I believed that they would do what they said they would do?  Was that my slight user error? If so, how can I correct this so it would not happen again? Sorry, another question (which I assume you are not going to answer).

you are considering taking a person to small claims court

No. Did you read what I wrote after that? It was:

Will I do that? No and this is why the scam is good.

This was me admiring BCP. As a scam it is good. What could a person who was caught in this scam do?

Email them? Been there, did that. See one of my posts to this thread to see what happened.
Short answer, nothing happened (other then they admitting that they should change things).

Go to the police? I am not a lawyer, however I would say no. After explaining what happened (and what a BitCoin is). Then it would come down to how much you have lost in money. When you tell the officer that it is less then $1.00 (really less then 50 cents, however you don't tell the officer that), then I assume that you would be told that this is a civil matter (which means suing them).

Granted, this crime is on the internet and crosses different states. So truly this should be a federal crime.
A federal crime on something that cost lest then 50 cents. NOT GOING TO HAPPEN. I know this, (again) that is why the scam is good.

Almost makes me want to take up a life of crime. Right now I'm trying to live my life with a "Do No Evil" attitude. If I decide to drop that, then I would consider a BCP type of scam.

not at the rates in which it was advertised

The first thing I thought was that you are missing the point. I could be wrong (it has happened before and will happen again). What do you mean? Sorry, another question (feel free to not answer and explain your answer).

I am really sorry about your situation

Do you really mean that? If so, thank you (?). There is nothing you can do for me (that I can think of). You may be able to help the people who are still being scammed (I know you don't like that word, give me another word I can sink my teeth into). How can you do this?

Do not support BCP and warn others to do the same (until BCP decides to do the right thing). Doing this will cost you BTC, however I believe it is the thing to do.

some here may not have known that the 9 cents they were mining for was costing them far more. 

That is some very good information. People should know that, however that is missing the point.

Scam is just a big word that should be reserved for sites that deserve it, I see BCP's fuck ups, I still don't see it as a scam what so ever.

Maybe I am starting to understand you. In your statement, you used the word big. Is size important (set aside your porn business )?
If the amount of BTC was worth $1,000.00 and BTC kept the same policy. Would it be a scam then?

If not, how much does BTC have to be worth for you to consider this to be a scam? I know, more questions.

[BitcoinPorn]

Was that my slight user error? If so, how can I correct this so it would not happen again?

Research more, take the time you took to take apart my post in pieces for I have no clue what you are wanting to get out of that.  I'm sure if this was a movie, this thread represents you screaming up to the sky "WHYYYYYY" after you lost someone you loved.  I still am overall sorry for your situation.

I assure you I am not jumping into your sadness further with discussing things, and use that energy and direct it at the right people

[BitCoinBarter]

Yes he may have not updated the transaction fee to .0005 but the client was only updated to allow that just a couple weeks ago.

He also hasn't disclosed his policies. Why?
I assume it would be easy to put up a FAQ on this site.

Talking about getting scammed out of less than .50 cents worth of money seems a bit ridiculous to me.

True. I assume that most would not. They would accept the lost and accept that they have been scammed.
What about the people who are still being scammed? Go to BCP and you will see them generating BTCs. Little do they know, that the fix is in.

I am trying to live a "Do No EVil" life. Based (in part) on Edmund Burke's quote of, "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."* Looks like evil is triumphing.

Most website affiliate programs don't pay out unless your commissions are over $50. I would have a hard time taking claims of scamming serious if the amount was under a dollar.

This is why it is an outstanding scam.

His program is much more akin to an affiliate payment program than a mining program. If you have no traffic to your site then the current transaction fee he charges of .01 will eat most of your (pennies) of profit. You ate wasting your time if you are only mining using your CPU.

Do affiliate program state how they work and what (if any fees) are involved? BCP doesn't.
For wasting time mining with a CPU. Missing the point.

Don't try to ruin this fledgling bitcoin business by yelling scam when it is only over pennies.

Even if they are scamming people. Is it better if they scam people for more money. Could I tell people it is a scam then?

I don't want to ruin his business. I just want him to do the right thing. If the right thing will ruin him, them pick another business (I know, easier said then to do).

* Yes ladies, he should have said, "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good people do nothing." Don't let that stop you from joining the "Do No Evil" life.

[BitCoinBarter]

I assure you I am not jumping into your sadness further with discussing things, and use that energy and direct it at the right people

You are right, I should direct it to the right people.
The people at BCP (OK, person) are not the right people. They are the one who caused this and seems to not want to change.

Hopefully, I would run across the right people (at some time). Wish me luck (or not).

[BitQuestr (BitCoinWorldMarket)]

Technically it is not his fee. It is the fee built into the system of bitcoin.

Yes he should probably make it clearer on his site I'll grant you that. However I don't think he is intentionally and maliciously trying to scam people out of their hundredths of a penny accounts. If you took a survey I would guess most people ignore or don't report the transaction cost of sending bit coins. In fact I was surprised to find there was a transaction at all when I first started reading about bitcoin.  He does state his fee clearly on the site and I would assume before I went spending weeks on mining .01 bit coins I would have run across the fact that to send a bitcoin it costs anywhere from .01 to .0005 btc per transaction.

If anything this is not his failing but the misrepresentation by the popular notion that sending bitcoin is free.

What are you feeling hurt by more, that you lost a potential seventeen cents worth of bitcoin or the hours you spent trying to make that seventeen cents without fully educating yourself on the true costs of that  seventeen cents of value?

This kind of feels like you are angry at a tollbooth operator for charging you 17 cents because the toll road wasn't listed on your map and you can't turn around.

By all means start a truth in bitcoin campaign to require all bitcoin businesses to list the transaction fee they use in their client on their websites and FAQs. 

[Test Bank Guy]

I've made this in 1 day with 4 computers and using the wordpress plugin on 2 blogs... 

Balance: 0.00157821 BTC

[BitCoinBarter]

Technically it is not his fee. It is the fee built into the system of bitcoin.

From an earlier post from JoelKatz posted on this thread (please read it and set it aside):

The fee is per transaction, not per recipient. Assuming he's paying 10 people at a time out of a block he mined a few hours ago, he never would have to pay anywhere near .01 per recipient. Maybe it's a scam, but maybe he's just too lazy to group his transactions. If he keeps doing very small payouts from the same block, he's doing one transaction per payout and they're all going to be with newish coins.

Yes he should probably make it clearer on his site I'll grant you that.

Thank you. He (BCP) knows this too. He responded in part to an email I sent him with (see one of my eairler posts on this thread for my emails sent/received to BCP) :

"I should make it easier find out about the fee, you're right."

Also PandaMiner posted on this thread that Donny (owner of BCP?) admitted to this by saying, "yeah, I guess it does seem scammy" and "I'll have to put it on there" but never did.

So BCP knows this. Why not disclose? Maybe it is because that if it is disclosed, people will not go there (some people would still go).
I think that is called, "lying by omission".

However I don't think he is intentionally and maliciously trying to scam people out of their hundredths of a penny accounts.

Lying by omission is scamming.

He does state his fee clearly on the site

True, however it is only after you want to transfer BTC. See PandaMiner's post (on this thread). Notice how now it is nice and big (in red too). If you look carefully, you will see that BTC's disclose is not the truth. Right next to Amount, it says "minimum 0.01 BTC"

If anything this is not his failing but the misrepresentation by the popular notion that sending bitcoin is free.

Are you Donny perchance? If so, start doing the right thing.

What are you feeling hurt by more, that you lost a potential seventeen cents worth of bitcoin or the hours you spent trying to make that seventeen cents without fully educating yourself on the true costs of that  seventeen cents of value?

Are these my only choices? If so, I would say B, "hours you spent trying to make that seventeen cents without fully educating yourself on the true costs of that  seventeen cents of value?"

If I had another choice, it would be C, "I got scammed by BCP and it is still happening to other people."

This kind of feels like you are angry at a tollbooth operator for charging you 17 cents because the toll road wasn't listed on your map and you can't turn around.

I like that. I would add that I see other people driving down that road and want to warn them. Will you help?

By all means start a truth in bitcoin campaign to require all bitcoin businesses to list the transaction fee they use in their client on their websites and FAQs. 

I like that also. Any ideal how to get started?

[BitCoinBarter]

I've made this in 1 day with 4 computers and using the wordpress plugin on 2 blogs...  

Balance: 0.00157821 BTC

Assuming every thing stays the same (BCP has been know to lower the pay out amount), then it would take you 7 days to get to at least 0.01.

0.01 is not enough with BCP to transfer BTC. You will need at least 0.02*. That would take you at 13 days.

I suggest you quit BCP.  If you read this thread (EDIT- please read this whole thread), you will see that I dislike how BCP does things. Others also agree.

Others would not a say that BCP is a scam (I do). However, most would agree that there is a better way to generate BTC. It would cost you more in electric power, then it would cost to get your BTC. A lot more.

I wish I could provide you other options, however I hope that someone else will.

Have you went to the BitCoin Faucet yet? If not, go there and you can find out how to get 0.001 for free. Not much, but it is a start  .

Best of luck.

* I assume this is correct. It could be that you get to 0.02 and find out that you can not transfer BTC for some reason. Read this thread for details.

[Test Bank Guy]

I like BCP because I can run their script on my blogs which get a couple thousand hits a day without users even knowing it.  I don't have to use my own electricity for that... know of anywhere else that has something like that?

[BitcoinPorn]

I like BCP because I can run their script on my blogs which get a couple thousand hits a day without users even knowing it.  I don't have to use my own electricity for that... know of anywhere else that has something like that?

Yes, it is called PPC and if you are a good SEO you'd be making real money.

Browser mining is good in theory and hopefully will help some websites.  It still needs to be perfected, and it definitely needs to be better understood.

[BitCoinBarter]

I like BCP because I can run their script on my blogs which get a couple thousand hits a day without users even knowing it.  I don't have to use my own electricity for that... know of anywhere else that has something like that?

When you put it like that, then I say that BCP may be a good deal for you. This assumes that the visitors to your site know what is going on.

For you, it becomes a matter of trust. Do you trust BCP to do right with you, even if it doesn't with other people?
If you are generation enough BTC through them, then they would be a fool to messed that up.

This reminds me of a story I heard about fashion (or was it about running shoes). It came to light that the clothes were put together by children in third world countries.  These kids (I assume there were adults too) worked long hours for little pay (I assume the pay was not that bad for the area). So when you are buying these clothes (or shoes), you are supporting this.

When you support BCP, then you supporting their treatment of how they mistreat people (read this thread for details).

Yes, I believe you should support people/business depending how they treat you.
I also think you should treat them by how they treat others.

To support or not to support, that is the question. This question will have to be answered by you.

[josephholsten]

As the operator of bitp.it, I don't think BitCoinPlus is a scam. It's just the most inefficient way you could possibly mine.

We've stopped offering the service to new users because it's hardly making anyone any money. For most users, the best you can hope for is to annoy the people that go to your web site.

Honestly, we thought web mining could be really awesome before we built bitp.it. It isn't. But it's not our fault, or BitCoinPlus' fault, or any user's fault that it sucks. It's just not something that can be efficient with today's browsers, javascript implementations and CPUs.

Someday I hope that will change. But today, web mining is just a great way to burn bandwidth and electricity.

[mj0nes]

Eh, never tried them out. Might be a scam

[BitCoinBarter]

As the operator of bitp.it, I don't think BitCoinPlus is a scam. It's just the most inefficient way you could possibly mine.

I believe you are missing the point. I think they are a scam because of their lack of disclosure.

I assume that most of the people who go there know very little about bitcoin. Why? It seems that everyone (that has knowledge of generation BTC) knows to not go there. The exceptions are people who would use it in connection with their site (but that's a special case).

So here is why it is a scam. Imagine you now know nothing (or very little about BitCoin). You stumble across BCP somehow. After some hours, you get your first payout. Great, you attempt to transfer BTC to your wallet.

Hold on. Warning, you are told that you will need at least 0.01 to transfer BTC. Did you miss something? You check the site to see it this is mentioned somewhere else. It is not not. You decided to continue generation until you get at least 0.01.

Hold on. Warning, you are told you can not transfer BTC because of a 0.01 fee. What? You check there site again. No mention of a 0.01 fee either.

You decide to contact the site. Through emails, the site admits that you really need 0.02 to transfer BTC (of which 0.01 would go to fees). They know about the lack of disclose and write, "..If I get some time I might post on my site about these things. Thanks for emailing me..."

This is a scam. It is a very good scam. As I write this I chuckled. It is just that good of a scam.

Here is something else. No one in this thread has confirmed that BCP would transfer BTC once you get to 0.02. There was one poster who said that BCP did transfer BTC to him (I think it was a he), however that was before the 0.01 transfer fee (start of the scam?).

Of course I could believe Donny (owner of BCP?) that they do transfer at 0.02, however I don't trust him.

[slamcore]

I totally disagree that BitCoinPlus is a scam.

One of the goals of the BitCoin project as a form of digital cash is to enable micro transactions.  In order to make micro transactions pay off, you need a lot of them.  Having a visitor to a website compute a few hashes is a microtransaction far less objectionable than most ads, and it is far more reliable in terms of payout than an ad's click through rate.  Getting thousands of visitors a day to a website is what it takes to make BitCoinPlus work for you.

User Error.

[BitQuestr (BitCoinWorldMarket)]

If you actually have a wallet to transfer to then you aren't THAT new. It is clear in the client settings that transactions  can have fees. The client clearly says:

"Fee 0.01 Recommended"

Your beef is with the bitcoin itself not BitCoinPlus...

Even the wiki at en.bitcoin.it is out of date listing:

"0.01 BTC fee if sending any transaction less than 0.01 BTC"

Anyone know if the current minimum amount that can be sent without a transaction fee anyways? Is it still .01 or has that lowered to .0005 as well as the minimum transaction fee?

[Seaco]

man this rant is way more popular than mine! hehe BitCoinBarter , nobody wants to listen to reason here!

I only used BCP because i had a pc on at work running a low user ftp server, so i figured id make me some bitcents. I understand how mining works, i have a small rig myself, overclocked my cards, etc, etc and as most everyone around have a degree in CS.

so, just roll with me on this one:

OK so why deepbit (to say one) lets you send micro payments with no cost? because they group trx and then discount the fees from the healthy 3% they take from the mining. And that im okay with, heck, it is a business.

So as said before, BCP is either lazy, or expects that by using these tactics an important number of users will:

1.-Get tired of waiting and simply never cash out their BTCs (especially smaller fractioned amounts)
or
2.-Accept that they charge up to 50% in fees for their service as modeled .


Another option i'm strongly pondering is that BCP simply doesnt have enough power to find blocks on a daily basis -but have to make you believe as if you're constantly getting small amounts-, so they have to block out and pospone cash outs somehow, and this way, to get to a true 3% fee on a normal pc you would have to "mine" for like 33 weeks. So maybe something extra funky is happening with his payout/share proyections, with difficulty rising rapidly over a short period of time, if his turnaround is not quick enough the older payouts can throw everything out of whack. Keeping the 0.01btc fee per cashout would have that effect, and help cover losses.

[BitcoinPorn]

man this rant is way more popular than mine! hehe BitCoinBarter , nobody wants to listen to reason here!

I noticed someone in the other thread mentioned this, but that word "Scam" does get abused here a lot, and without even the site here to defend itself, even with the competition of Bitp.it coming in, saying that the technology isn't all there and it is inefficient,  and I think EVERYONE agrees that BitcoinPlus could use a site redesign and update or two with a F.A.Q. or so.   

For now two different threads, multiple attacks on BitcoinPlus, 0 defense from them, we are only seeing one side of this argument, and yet "nobody wants to listen to reason" ?   I think "nobody wants to admit that this isn't the best site, but scam is not the word for it", except in this case, nobody is most everybody.

[Seaco]

man this rant is way more popular than mine! hehe BitCoinBarter , nobody wants to listen to reason here!

I noticed someone in the other thread mentioned this, but that word "Scam" does get abused here a lot, and without even the site here to defend itself, even with the competition of Bitp.it coming in, saying that the technology isn't all there and it is inefficient,  and I think EVERYONE agrees that BitcoinPlus could use a site redesign and update or two with a F.A.Q. or so.  

For now two different threads, multiple attacks on BitcoinPlus, 0 defense from them, we are only seeing one side of this argument, and yet "nobody wants to listen to reason" ?   I think "nobody wants to admit that this isn't the best site, but scam is not the word for it", except in this case, nobody is most everybody.

I just wanted to have the owner clarify stuff, so everyone should just chilax a bit. Anyhow in my thread i clearly stated that in my humble opinion it was a scam. So i don't know what kind of agenda you nurture by defending that site so much (maybe you just like java mining a lot), or when it became unacceptable to have your own opinion. And BCPs problem is not with the technology, its a problem with the business model and policies that are made to retain your winnings for way too long and cut them by a large margin and are not communicated to the user. Believe me, if they stated that i takes two weeks to get only 0.01 btc they would have few customers, but at least they wouldn't be all pissed off.

Finally the fact that the owner has not responded, means he either doesn't care, or he is not a member of the community. Either case is bad.

ps. not to sound like a dick, but i wouldn't advertise a site in my signature unless it was at a decent functioning level. It needs some better design and it also crashed safari on my hackintosh. This creates some bad publicity that usually never goes away. Just send invites to friends for the testing.

[BitCoinBarter]

Having a visitor to a website compute a few hashes is a microtransaction far less objectionable than most ads, and it is far more reliable in terms of payout than an ad's click through rate.  Getting thousands of visitors a day to a website is what it takes to make BitCoinPlus work for you.

I don't know much about that (aside what I read in this thread), however it seems like BCP would be a good fit with websites (assuming they allow you to transfer BTC to yourself and let their visitors know what they are doing).

This is not why BCP is a scam. They are a scam because of how they treat individual users. Please read this thread for details.

User Error.

When I first read this, I thought that that was wrong. That is like blaming the victim for the crime. So wrong on so many levels.

Then I thought, maybe you are writing that the User Error belongs to BCP. Is that what you mean?

Are you blaming the victim or the person (i.e., BCP) who committed the crime?

When you, "...totally disagree that BitCoinPlus is a scam..." are you referring to that BCP only scams individual users and not websites?
Assuming that is true. They would mean that BCP is half a scam (assuming that have of all users of BCP are individual users).

Before answering, I want you to know that "Lying By Omission"* is a scam.

* Lying by omission is lying by either omitting certain facts or by failing to correct a misconception. See http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Lying_by_omission for more details.

[slamcore]

Then I thought, maybe you are writing that the User Error belongs to BCP. Is that what you mean?

What I really mean is "you are a fool."

[BitCoinBarter]

If you actually have a wallet to transfer to then you aren't THAT new. It is clear in the client settings that transactions  can have fees. The client clearly says:
Your beef is with the bitcoin itself not BitCoinPlus...

No. It is with BCP. Please read this thread (from the start) for details.

As I write this, BCP is still doing this to people as will still be doing it (They haven't stopped and show no intention of doing so) by the time you read this (my guess).

Anyone know if the current minimum amount that can be sent without a transaction fee anyways? Is it still .01 or has that lowered to .0005 as well as the minimum transaction fee?

Are you referring to BCP practices? If so, they are doing the same. I just tried to transfer BTC from them and was told that I could not because of a 0.01 transfer fee. If you want to see what I was shown, look at PandaMiner's post on July 01, 2011, 06:48:54 am.

Before you post and write that the lowered fee is only a couple of weeks old, give them time. This post was started on June 15, 2011, 02:43:53 am and BCP admits that BCP, "...should make it easier find out about the fee..." on an email on Jun 9, 2011 at 5:48 AM.

Yet still no change. They scam by using Lying by omission. Hoping that people would just give up so they can keep those BTC.
What else would you call it?

Lying by omission is lying by either omitting certain facts or by failing to correct a misconception. See http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Lying_by_omission for more details.

[BitCoinBarter]

What I really mean is "you are a fool."

This is why the BCP scam is so good.

Man I wish I wan't practicing the "Do No Evil" lifestyle. I would love to pull a BCP type of scam myself.

I would do some good (or at least make people think I'm doing some good). I would then scam (from a lot of people) little amounts. I would try not to scam the people who think I'm doing good.

Once people realize that they were scammed, they would not say much (if anything) because of the small amounts.

What if the scammed person says something?

Who knows, maybe someone will call them a fool and they will shut up.

Maybe someone will let them know that (after all) it was their fault for allowing themselves to be scammed. They should have known better.

[BitQuestr (BitCoinWorldMarket)]

Finally the fact that the owner has not responded, means he either doesn't care, or he is not a member of the community. Either case is bad.

Personally I think the impertinent expectation that every Bitcoin business owner scour the forum every single day for people trying to publicly air their complaints is unrealistic.

This business owner has responded via email to you (or the other user who has a similar thread), heard your suggestions, and because you didn't like the answer you posted that his business was a scam. Since he is not choosing to put further effort into posting on this forum he is instantly guilty?

Yes I think it would be wise for business owners to respond to complaints on the forum. It shows a lot of transparency, community involvement, and promotes trust. However every hour spent politely responding to "scam" complaints and derisive posts is an hour taken away from development for that business.

If we want to promote more people in and outside of this community to become merchants involved with bitcoin we have to create an environment where it doesn't feel like they are stepping into the ring with a thousand rabid dogs.

I have to admit I have a lot of anxieties opening up my own business next week and all the hours I will be spending scouring these boards providing replies to unfounded accusations and complaints. I haven't even done anything wrong yet but this is a very discouraging thought. While it is a motivation to operate at a high level of transparency and ethics, I would prefer that be through positive feedback rather than a fear of making an accidental misstep with communication to the community.

[Ekaros]

I wouldn't say it's a scam, unless they take your coins. Just because huge deflation before updating minium fee and not updating their practises up to lastest updates.

Issue is less on BCP and more on bitcoin it self. 0.01 fee was huge, and it's understandable that they can't pay it. Probably they could do something about these. Still issue is also with user for not finding out about inherit fees in the system.

Bottom line, not scam just badly run service. Once it steals your coins it's scam, not before. And just holding up because system hasn't allowed transfering isn't stealing...

[BitCoinBarter]

Just because huge deflation before updating minium fee and not updating their practises up to lastest updates.

Here is the thing. They do not list their practices. As such, they can do anything they like.
Does that not seem like a scam to you? Well it does to me and it is still happening as I write this.

They could say that for every 5.0 BTC you generate, they get 4.999 999 99. What is to stop them? Would it be a scam to you then?
 

Issue is less on BCP and more on bitcoin it self.

No it is with BCP.  Please read the thread from the start.

0.01 fee was huge, and it's understandable that they can't pay it. Probably they could do something about these.

Probably, that is kind of you. They could, however they won't.
They could stop scamming, however they won't.

What they could they do (about the fee) is to use JK's information (which is located within this thread):

The fee is per transaction, not per recipient. Assuming he's paying 10 people at a time out of a block he mined a few hours ago, he never would have to pay anywhere near .01 per recipient. Maybe it's a scam, but maybe he's just too lazy to group his transactions. If he keeps doing very small payouts from the same block, he's doing one transaction per payout and they're all going to be with newish coins.

Still issue is also with user for not finding out about inherit fees in the system.

Blaming the victim again (I see).

Ok, Assume (today) you go to BTC to generate BTC (remember I said assume). You (informed person that you are), know that the transaction fee is 0.0005. You were able to generate 0.11 in a day (it will take a lot longer then a day, however we are assuming).

You want to transfer 0.011 BTC (still assuming remember) and expect to pay 0.0005. You will find out that you could not because of a 0.01 fee which is because of the BTC network. You may think, wow I thought it was 0.0005.

Will you think it is a scam then? This is happening TODAY. Not just when I tried the first time. Not yesterday. Today.

The sad thing is that there are still people who use BCP to generate BTC. They do not know about the scam yet.

Bottom line, not scam just badly run service.

Hopefully you have read the whole thread (by now) and noticed that others agree with you. They will not say it is a scam. They use other words like badly run service. You say tomato...

In either case, what they are doing is wrong.

[BitCoinBarter]

Once it steals your coins it's scam, not before. And just holding up because system hasn't allowed transfering isn't stealing...

Okay, let's try an example. Say you put money into a bank.
Then you go to the bank to get your money (it is your money after all).

Bank: "I'm sorry, you can not get your money because of a fee."
You:  "What fee?  I don't know anything about a fee"
Bank: "Yes, it is industry standard. You should have known this before you came here."
You: "Where was I suppose to learn about this fee?"
Bank: "Any place but here. We only tell you about the fee when you are trying to get your money."
You: "Can you waive the fee?"
Bank: "No. We use to not charge it, however we changed our policy."
You: "How is policy made here?"
Bank: "We make it up as we feel."
You: "Is there someplace I can find out about your policies?"
Bank: "No."
You: "How can be know when your policies changes?"
Bank: "When it changes."
You: "Ok, what is the fee?" Banks tell you. You pullout your mobile computer (i.e., cellphone), check something and say, "Well, I just checked and industry standard is lower then what you quoted. Could you explain why you charge higher?"
Bank: "Could we help you with something else?"
You: You notice that your question wasn't answered and the bank is not going to do it.
You: "How do I know that you have my money?"
Bank: "You will have to trust us. Have we done anything that makes you to not trust us?"
You: Stare in disbelief .

Will this happen in your bank? No, your bank would disclose these to you.
It may be in small print and in a language you don't understand (legal writing), but it is disclosed.

If this did happen with your bank, I assume (could be wrong) that you would consider this a scam.

When this happens with BCP, you consider it a badly run service.

[BitcoinPorn]

Man I wish I wan't practicing the "Do No Evil" lifestyle. I would love to pull a BCP type of scam myself.

Do No Evil 2.0.  Now includes functioning evil in the form of attacks on a website that has old information posted.


I have something everyone can discuss and maybe something useful and actually positive can come from this thread...

Since this thread has started up, we all know BCP has erroneous information, how long before (even myself) has to recognize "Okay guys, what is up, why are you not updated this web site?"   No matter what 'side' you are on, in this thread, one fact remains, BCP could use an update, not that they have to, but it could use one.   

Now BitCoinBarter, I am going to assume the time frame for you and this situation has come and gone, but please feel free to step back from this situation, look at all sides, and then answer honestly please.   I will say this is hard to gauge based on 'how much does BCP deserve to make for offering this service, hosting the site, etc' on top of there is little to nothing known about 'staff' size or what other projects he is behind that may also be occupying his site.

[mog]

Caveat emptor  is the lesson you should be learning from this. Scam is a harsh word for not doing your homework before hand , asking around or just making an adequete decision. Just be happy you lost a few fractions of a coin.

[BitCoinBarter]

This my seem off topic, however it you have read this thread, you will see how it is not.

I imagine something like this in the future.

Little Kid runs up to his Grandparents house and rings the bell. Grandma opens the door. Little Kid gives her a big hug and ask where is Granddad. Grandma tells him and Little Kid runs to Granddad. Granddad is sitting.

Little Kid:  "Granddad, Granddad! Tell me again about the start of BitCoin and how you got rich. Please Granddad, please!"
Grandma: Overhearing, "Don't pester your Granddad about that."
Granddad: "It's okay, Ma. I never get tired talking about that." He shifts in his chair while the Little Kid sits at is feet. He looks straight ahead at something The Kid can not see. He is looking at the past.
Granddad: "It was in 2011.  You were not born then. It was a different time. We had our first black president, his name was..."
Little Kid: Interrupts, "Granddad. That is wrong. You don't call them black, you call them..."
Granddad: Interrupts sternly, "Wasn't I talking, you know better."
Little Kid: In a small voice, "Sorry."
Granddad: "Okay." Rubs the Little Kids head, "Don't let it happen again... Now, where was I?.... I remember. It was in 2010. I had a something called  a website." He smiles, "those were good times. Very good times." He coughs.
Little Kid: "Want me to get you some water?"
Granddad: "No thanks... Well I had this website that people came to" Granddad smiles while remembering, "and I was in the Bitcoin business. I was scamming people from here to Sunday."
Little Kid: "Didn't those suckers know they were getting scammed?"
Granddad: "Not at first. Once they did, they stopped being scammed."
Little Kid: "Wasn't that bad for you?"
Granddad: "You would think so. However for each one scammed person that quit, two more took his place!"
Little Kid: "Really!?!"
Granddad: "Really!"
Little Kid: "But what about the scammed people who stopped. Didn't they try to warn the new people?"
Granddad: "Yes. however this is the great part of the scam. I only scammed a little from each person"
Litlle Kid: Looking confused, "But if you only got a little, how did you get rich?"
Granddad: Gently Grasping the Little Kid's face and turned it to him so they were face to face, "Listen carefully, a little bit from a lot of people is a lot."
Little Kid: Talking slowly, "Okay. But what happened when the scammed people tried to warn others about the scam?"
Granddad: "Ooo. This is the good part. When they tried to tell people, they were told that it was their fault for getting scammed!"
Little Kid: "That doesn't sound right"
Granddad: Smiling, "It was crazy times."
Little Kid: "I love that story granddad. Wow, look at the time. Mom will be here soon. Can I get some BitCoins?"
Granddad: "Sure" Then Granddad transferred some Bitcoins in a way that people in 2010 and 2011 would envy.
Grandma: After The Kid left, "You know you were played for your Bitcoins, right?"
GrandDad: "Yea."
Grandma: "Do you also remember that I had a website and I scammed more people then you?"
Granddad: "Yea, that is why I married you." Then moved in for a kiss.
Grandma: Smiling, "Those were some good times." and allows herself to be  kissed.

[saykor]

The idea of BitCoinPlus is to use in your sites. If you have a many sites then make your traffic in a miners. It is not to open the browser and stay on it to make a money. If you want this you will make more with CPU mining than BitCoinPlus.

[BitCoinBarter]

Hi BP,

Off topic:
I have my own type of short hand. My first mind is to give you the short hand of BCP
I find it odd that handle is the same one I give BitCoin Plus.

Also I thought you were not going to post to me on this thread. I could be mistaken:

I assure you I am not jumping into your sadness further with discussing things[...]

Do No Evil 2.0.  Now includes functioning evil in the form of attacks on a website that has old information posted.

I would like to ask you what you mean by this. However I notice that you do not answer (or only half answer) my questions, so I'll refrain.

I would say this. Everything I post I believe. I try to make some of it funny, however the meaning is clear (I hope).

-BCP (not you, I am calling you BP remember) scammed me and others. Read this thread for details.
-BCP is still doing it.
-They are doing it with "Lying By Omission". Lying by omission is lying by either omitting certain facts or by failing to correct a misconception. See http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Lying_by_omission for more details.

I have something everyone can discuss and maybe something useful and actually positive can come from this thread...

I hope to let everyone know that BCP is a scam in hopes that the word gets out and no one goes there without knowing how they do things.

Isn't that positive. That people should know what to expect and get it when they visit a site.  I know, you disagree with me on that.

Since this thread has started up, we all know BCP has erroneous information,

If this is because of this thread, then the word is getting out. Could you help by spreading it? You spreading this info should not effect your financial ties with BCP.

how long before (even myself) has to recognize "Okay guys, what is up, why are you not updated this web site?"   

Answer. They are scamming people. See the Lying By Omission definition above.

BCP could use an update, not that they have to [...]

I disagree. Not that they have to. By law they should. In the U.S., every company that deals with exchanging money with the public requires disclosure. Granted I am not a lawyer (so I could be wrong). BitCoin is money, so the same rules should apply.

how much does BCP deserve to make for offering this service

I hope that is your question.
The easy answer is how much the market can bear (i.e., As much as they can).

I do not consider the other things you mentioned. e.g., cost of hosting the site, size of the staff, etc. The fact is that I never think of these things when I go to a site. I go to a site to do things. (e.g., Going to Google to look up something). I assume the owner of the site has that covered. Since you have a site (I believe that to be true), you may think more about those things. Since I don't have a site, those thoughts do not cross my mind.

In short, I do not care if BCP makes a lot of money. As long as it is legal and they explain how they do things (you could tell where this could go).

Did that answer your question?

[BitCoinBarter]

The idea of BitCoinPlus is to use in your sites. If you have a many sites then make your traffic in a miners. It is not to open the browser and stay on it to make a money. If you want this you will make more with CPU mining than BitCoinPlus.

Thank you for the information.

Could you provide a link from (BCP) to me that explains this?

[Eri]

Link to other thread complaining about the same thing ->  http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=25110.0

oh and to note, None of the other miners work for me, or they want me to install some 'stuff', I'm all for taking risks but i don't like the idea of screwing with my hardware by changing software or adding 'extras' that may affect my overall performance. wasn't till a few days ago i decided to try ufasoft which works so much better.

[Test Bank Guy]

With all of this bitching in this thread going on... can someone make a competing website that has a plugin for wordpress, blogger, SMF, etc so that community users can mine bitcoins for us and charge a lesser fee?  If I was smart enough with coding I would do this, and blow bitcoinplus out of the water.  However I am not, and no other viable option is available so I will keep using BC+.   The great part about capitalism is that if no competing products are available, you can pretty much charge whatever you want...

[BitcoinPorn]

With all of this bitching in this thread going on... can someone make a competing website that has a plugin for wordpress, blogger, SMF, etc so that community users can mine bitcoins for us and charge a lesser fee?  If I was smart enough with coding I would do this, and blow bitcoinplus out of the water.  However I am not, and no other viable option is available so I will keep using BC+.   The great part about capitalism is that if no competing products are available, you can pretty much charge whatever you want...

Exactly.

The only competition was Bitp.it and those guys run and pool and are no longer doing this, I swear their code was open source though, just too lazy find it.

There is, or was, also BitJam http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=11549.0

I await any competition as well, the technology is too good of a concept where even if it is abused by both websites and users (as I feel I see in this thread), it will still continue on for the people who see how it can be used properly (and of course for gain).

[Eri]

With all of this bitching in this thread going on... can someone make a competing website that has a plugin for wordpress, blogger, SMF, etc so that community users can mine bitcoins for us and charge a lesser fee?  If I was smart enough with coding I would do this, and blow bitcoinplus out of the water.  However I am not, and no other viable option is available so I will keep using BC+.   The great part about capitalism is that if no competing products are available, you can pretty much charge whatever you want...

its not so much 'bitching' as having to explain the exact same thing over and over again because people fail to read the thread.

check out http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=16125.0 and download the ufasoft miner, it works without having to install anything. I've been using https://www.btcguild.com/ as the pool it connects too. its *so* much more efficient.

[Test Bank Guy]

That program didn't work, just opens and closes really fast...

[Clipse]

You do know that bitcoinplus charge a hefty fee, this is from their bitcoinplus for websites section:

Fees
The fee is 19%. If you add a link to Bitcoin Plus, there is a 4% discount on the fee, bringing it down to 15%.


Now looking at that, I find it hard to believe if you mine directly on bitcoinplus that they would only charge 3%

[Eri]

you need to find the command prompt. either in search or run, type 'cmd' and press enter. when the prompt shows up you need to get the path to where the file is, for me i just needed to go into the downloads folder by typing "cd downloads" then "bitcoin-miner.exe" the program will run and stay open and list all its options. you can start the miner here, but its easyer if you make a shortcut for it, never have to type anything again. make a shortcut to the exe, right click it and press properties, in the 'target' field at the end you can add a space a '-' then the switch/setting the open command prompt lists, ie use the command for connecting to the server then save it. then the shortcut will start the miner for you with the right settings.

you Do need to sign up for a mining pool though so it has some place to log into.

[BitCoinBarter]

You do know that bitcoinplus charge a hefty fee, this is from their bitcoinplus for websites section:

Fees
The fee is 19%. If you add a link to Bitcoin Plus, there is a 4% discount on the fee, bringing it down to 15%.


Now looking at that, I find it hard to believe if you mine directly on bitcoinplus that they would only charge 3%

Some people also find it hard to believe that BCP is scamming people.

Please read this thread from the start.
You will find an email from BCP to me stating that they do charge 3%.

[modded-account]

I think so.

At best, a waste of time.

With BCP 500 khs. Guiminer CPU only on the same laptop got me 4 mhs.

[Test Bank Guy]

The concept is awesome though for the wordpress/blogger plugin or for any forum software for that matter.  If someone set up a service that let you do this and only took 1% of the BTC proceeds and set up adsense on their webpage they would make a ton of money and provide an EXTREMELY valuable tool for web developers to make way more revenue off of their users than ads ever could provide.  Sounds like a great open source project someone should work on...

[mjsa]

http://mining.bitcoin.cz/ is for the win.

[labestiol]

I didn't do the math, but i have trouble thinking it's profitable to use BCP because of electricity cost
Adding to that fees, and the fact that it makes Mozilla crash, i'm not using it anymore.

[kilgore]

Just wanted to post a thank you to the person who started this topic!  Thanks for saving me from wasting my time on that site.  I already mined about 0.0005 BTC but I'm stopping now.  That hidden 0.01 fee is really a bitch....
Already got 0.2 from freebitcoins.org this week, waaaay more efficient!

[DavinciJ15]

Anyone have the source to BitcoinPlus so someone else can build a more legitimate CPU mining web site?

[Eri]

i believe the mining source is in the original client source, just in a different language. if you wanted something to look at i know that is one thing you /can/ look at.

[Test Bank Guy]

Anyone have the source to BitcoinPlus so someone else can build a more legitimate CPU mining web site?

THIS.  Donations to whoever makes a legit one with blog plugins.

[igl00]

nobody will be using his system if he wonbt change fee to like 0,001 per transaction or so..

[Eri]

It was pointed out to me today that a pool owner can add transactions into the blocks the pool solves for free. so this guy really has no reason for fees unless the pool were in isn't his pool. but by running his own he would be able to save his users even more o.o tiny mh/s though so probably would take awhile to solve a block if he had his own pool. Eh, food for thought anyway

[opticbit]

finally got to .02 btc thanks to my web viewers, and possibly a few bots.

someone mentioned some script to trap bots and force them to stay on your site, links anyone?
I just want to trap spam bots I get plenty of those, don't want to trap the google bots.

My fee was .01 btc, I wrote asking to reduce the fee to 0.0005 no response yet.

[BitcoinPorn]

someone mentioned some script to trap bots and force them to stay on your site, links anyone?
I just want to trap spam bots I get plenty of those, don't want to trap the google bots.

My fee was .01 btc, I wrote asking to reduce the fee to 0.0005 no response yet.

You should meet in the middle somewhere, like 0.005


Holy shit at catching spam bots.   I have not heard or read anything of that, I will definitely and obviously be keeping an eye out.  I will try and remember you are running java miner site/s.   

[rTech]

Gettin slow but steady something... practically nothing Like others i was pissed of when i saw fee and amount what has to be collected before i can get my btc out. Well anyway i have 2 site creating slowly something and im wondering how long it could take to get that mystical 0.02  

Anyway there are no alternatives so im stuck with this.. as i want to use my 2 sites for making some BTC

[superpc]

People are still even using BitCoinPlus?  If I didn't have access to a GPU, I'd still use CPU Mining software in a better pool than BitCoinPlus.  BitCoinPlus is feature-limited and only seems to be a meh proof of concept.

[BitcoinPorn]

People are still even using BitCoinPlus?  If I didn't have access to a GPU, I'd still use CPU Mining software in a better pool than BitCoinPlus.  BitCoinPlus is feature-limited and only seems to be a meh proof of concept.

I truly do not believe the intention was ever for the individual miner, but rather for the web site owner who has the ability to run the program off their own sites.  I have one, I like it, and I haven't earned crap   I am more interested in seeing the technology further.

[Test Bank Guy]

Can we PLEASE get a developer to build on the concept this site started?  Having your website users mine for you is a great fucking idea.  But we need to get rid of the outrageous fees, etc.

Also can someone elaborate on getting spambots stuck at your site?  I would love to make money off of a spammer's CPU.  This would be great justice.

[BitcoinPorn]

Can we PLEASE get a developer to build on the concept this site started?  Having your website users mine for you is a great fucking idea.  But we need to get rid of the outrageous fees, etc.

Also can someone elaborate on getting spambots stuck at your site?  I would love to make money off of a spammer's CPU.  This would be great justice.

I have an idea.  I am not willing to share just yet.  I have to kink out how I would finish out the site.  But let it be known, if it works, it was inspired by this post.   Sorry if I'm being cryptic.

Also, yes, more people need to toy around with this technology.

[Test Bank Guy]

Can we PLEASE get a developer to build on the concept this site started?  Having your website users mine for you is a great fucking idea.  But we need to get rid of the outrageous fees, etc.

Also can someone elaborate on getting spambots stuck at your site?  I would love to make money off of a spammer's CPU.  This would be great justice.

I have an idea.  I am not willing to share just yet.  I have to kink out how I would finish out the site.  But let it be known, if it works, it was inspired by this post.   Sorry if I'm being cryptic.

Also, yes, more people need to toy around with this technology.

feel free to PM me.  I would love to help with ideas, maybe even a small donation or something.

[noob_jul11]

BITCOINPLUS.COM is DEFINITELY A SCAM.
After 6 long weeks of mining (having experienced the 0.01 btc to withdraw); I waited for my account to be 0.02180326 bitcoins. So today was finally the day I withdraw what was mine and leave this stupid website.
Wait !!!! There's another catch: you can only withdraw in multiples of 0.01 bitcoins.

After 6 long weeks with LOWER than other pools payout, The owner "donny" gets 0.01180326 bitcoins whereas I get 0.01 if I withdraw. He's getting more than me!!! And that's not even counting the LOWER payouts.

NEWBIES, STAY AWAY FROM BITCOINPLUS.COM

[MackTrow]

It's not a scam, but whether or not it can hold up against inevitable governmental retaliation is another story. If major currency issuers go after it, the price could plummet.

[bigb159]

Bitcoinplus is a great idea, but let's see someone a bit more ethical put an option together. My readership is already generating coin for me, but all that cpu effort is to waste if Bitcoinplus takes half.

[MackTrow]

There's nothing "ethical" or "unthical" about BC. It's an algorithm that allows for only a finite amount of currency to be created. As such, its price can only fluctuate because of supply and demand -- rather than printing or destruction.

Mack

[slamcore]

It's not a scam, but whether or not it can hold up against inevitable governmental retaliation is another story. If major currency issuers go after it, the price could plummet.

Dude, this thread is about BitcoinPlus.com, not bitcoin itself.  You are off topic.

[elements]

Just for those interested:

I just checked my account there to see whether the owner finally switched to the "new" transaction fee. SURPRISE - he didn't.

So my coins (and probably everyone else's) are staying there...

BTW I find it very interesting that this guy disdains his clients so much that he did not even try to justify his SCAM here.

Well, moving forward...

[LRM)Game]

Just for those interested:

I just checked my account there to see whether the owner finally switched to the "new" transaction fee. SURPRISE - he didn't.

So my coins (and probably everyone else's) are staying there...

BTW I find it very interesting that this guy disdains his clients so much that he did not even try to justify his SCAM here.

Well, moving forward...

As is anything on the internet. 

[Test Bank Guy]

It won't let me withdraw anything at all and I have more than .04 BTC

[bitcoin-bullion]

what sort of fee do you think would be fair for the service?

[bizzy]

2% for users mining directly, 10% for embedding it in a site

[JHen]

Never heard of btcplus

[JCbit]

Never heard of btcplus

its a site where you can cpu mine VIA his website.
you can even get your friends to cpu mine for you.

[Test Bank Guy]

and then they don't let you withdraw anything and keep your BTC...

[gochk]

Never heard of btcplus

That's because it's bitcoinplus (http://www.bitcoinplus.com/ ) and not btcplus.

its a site where you can cpu mine VIA his website.
you can even get your friends to cpu mine for you.

Don't waste your time or your friend's time. It's not worth it as you can see the comments in this thread ...

[elements]

Total scam and waste of time.

The owner of the site still hasn't switched to 0.0005 TX-Fee.

(Tried again today to withdraw what I had generated in the first few days I got into bitcoin - nearly 3 months ago)

STAY AWAY

[Hotdog453]

I tried it originally, back when I got into Bitcoin. I just had a difficult time seeing how it was even close to being worth it for a "normal" person; the amount of CPUs you'd have to throw at the damn thing to get any negligible amount of BTC out of it seemed insane, ignoring the "withdraw" fee completely. You'd be doing it forever and ever and ever to get anything out of it.