[Split topic] Speculation, capitalism, etc.

[kiba]

I'm sorry, I know my words are strong ... I understand that most people do not realize what they are doing. Can you call a child taking someone else's apple a scumbag because he "stole it"? I do not think so ... but it is expected that the child grows up and as a grown up is going to be held liable for the same action. It's time to grow up

It's the intention that counts, from the outside it is very hard if not impossible to distinguish speculation and genuine demand. Of course if you buy bitcoins to do some business with them and in the meantime it rises you're not speculator nor scumbag.

What gives bitcoin its value right now? What is backing it? There are not enough real useful services (meaning other than "let me try this" type of things which are driven by pure enthusiasm for the novelty of bitcoin - which is going to go away soon) so most of the apparent "value" is a bubble created by exactly the type of speculators hoping to make a profit. This is not real value ... it's virtual, it doesn't exist ... in the real world nobody values bitcoins for the sake of being bitcoins. It baffles my mind how anybody can see this as something good, why would it be good? For what? because it makes pretty charts? This type of economy is just a giant ponzi scheme snowballing and snowballing until there is enough suckers to believe it will go further up ... when the world runs out of suckers people start selling off unleashing a raging inferno of sell-offs where those who sell off first are at the top of the pyramid making huge profits while the base is going to loose big time ... in the end no real value or wealth was ever created, the money just changed hands (was redistributed) from the suckers to those at the top. there is not value in that ... pretty charts showing rising numbers are not wealth. It's fraud and a scam ... the only real value is physical economy and services that people desire *other than* monetary gain. Selling "investment funds" for the sake of making more money from money is not a service anybody would desire if they wouldn't want more money from it ... the same goes for gambling, casinos etc. - NOBODY would participate if there wasn't a prospect for making more money out of just money. This is the scam ... that *can't be done*, it's zero sum game. You can NOT make money from money this way or create real wealth ... you can just take it from somebody else - and that is just wrong and YES IT IS IMMORAL too!

Regardless, you are still accusing me and others of stealing and scamming. I WILL HOLD YOU accountable for libel on bitcoin community members.

I will not trade with you, give you anything, and so on, to the best of my knowledge possible. In other words, if I found you using ANY of my web app that I am building right now or in the future, I will suspend your accounts. I will tell other people to boycott you until you apologize for your fallacious libels.

Is that clear?

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[nelisky]

So much for the innocent child approach

I know we shouldn't feed trolls but I just can't help myself... Macho, do you have any idea how much you sound like some priest preaching to those which are poor in spirit? Next step is to start burning everyone that doesn't agree with you... ouch. Even worse, you sound like a government mandated agent, with your own morale that stands above everyone else's because, well, it serves you "and everyone else" better.

I'm usually on the side of the mild tempered, but I have to side with kiba on this one.

[Macho]

Regardless, you are still accusing me and others of stealing and scamming. I WILL HOLD YOU accountable for libel on bitcoin community members.

I will not trade with you, give you anything, and so on, to the best of my knowledge possible. In other words, if I found you using ANY of my web app that I am building right now or in the future, I will suspend your accounts. I will tell other people to boycott you until you apologize for your fallacious libels.

Is that clear?

We have a deal! I'll do the same thing for you I do not like scammers who refuse to change their ways after they're notified of their scam. And I'm going to call a scam everything that claims to make more money solely from money as they are just artificially inflating the price and are greatest threat to bitcoin and honest people than anything else. It's a ponzi scheme pure and simple ...

Seeing your mindset I wouldn't be interested in any of your "web apps" anyway, it's probably going to be a scam ... (not that you could identify me if I ever choose to use it LOL)

[Drifter]

I'm sorry, I know my words are strong ... I understand that most people do not realize what they are doing. Can you call a child taking someone else's apple a scumbag because he "stole it"? I do not think so ... but it is expected that the child grows up and as a grown up is going to be held liable for the same action. It's time to grow up

Why don't we grow up together? You're not going to help your cause one bit by calling us children. This could have been a good discussion but your pompous attitude carried throughout all of your posts is just going to make everyone defensive.  Lighten up, dude. No one wants to listen to a pigheaded preacher. Of course, you'll simply relate the fact that everyone is argumentative because we're all scammers who are no good for society, ignoring your own arrogance. In a sense, you've already made up your mind about us, so arguments about the situation is futile.

Scum of the Earth! If I wouldn't be that of a big believer in freedom and personal responsibility I would lock these people up the the worst prison until they rot!

It is a moral question, but we are people, we are supposed to care about morality ...

Glad I don't live in a world with your moralities.

[nelisky]

Regardless, you are still accusing me and others of stealing and scamming. I WILL HOLD YOU accountable for libel on bitcoin community members.

I will not trade with you, give you anything, and so on, to the best of my knowledge possible. In other words, if I found you using ANY of my web app that I am building right now or in the future, I will suspend your accounts. I will tell other people to boycott you until you apologize for your fallacious libels.

Is that clear?

We have a deal! I'll do the same thing for you I do not like scammers who refuse to change their ways after they're notified of their scam. And I'm going to call a scam everything that claims to make more money solely from money as they are just artificially inflating the price and are greatest threat to bitcoin and honest people than anything else. It's a ponzi scheme pure and simple ...

Seeing your mindset I wouldn't be interested in any of your "web apps" anyway, it's probably going to be a scam ... (not that you could identify me if I ever choose to use it LOL)

Do you even go to the grocery store? Because they make money from inflating the price of food, you know. And do you even know what a ponzi sheme is? Hint: it's not buying low and selling high

[Macho]

I'm not the one quoting my holy scriptures

Walter Block's Defending the Undefendable
http://mises.org/books/defending.pdf
Chapter 22, pg 165 in book (pg. 183 in pdf)

A nice refresher on the socially beneficial role of the speculator.  Small excerpt:

Kill the speculators! is a cry made during every famine that has ever existed. Uttered by demagogues, who think that the speculator causes death through starvation by raising food prices, this cry is fervently supported by the masses of economic illiterates. This kind of thinking, or rather nonthinking, has allowed dictators to impose even the death penalty for traders in food who charge high prices during famines. And without the feeblest of protests from those usually concerned with civil rights and liberties.

Yet the truth of the matter is that far from causing starvation and famines, it is the speculator who prevents them. And far from safeguarding the lives of the people, it is the dictator who must bear the prime responsibility for causing the famine in the first place. Thus, the popular hatred for the speculator is as great a perversion of justice as can be imagined. We can best see this by realizing that the speculator is a person who buys and sells commodities in the hope of making a profit. He is the one who, in the time-honored phrase, tries to “buy low and sell high.”

XC

My suspicions are confirmed, the "bitcoin community" (at least the significant part parroting their religious economic beliefs) is just a bunch of gullible children trotting out their holy text they've been indoctrinated into. They think that pretty charts and lines represent wealth and that profit is above all and justifies anything and everything. It's this kind of useful idiots who allowed the current crisis to materialize ... but they never learn, it's a religion and not to be questioned. Independent thought? Questioning the dogma? No!, Go away heretic ... we have Ludwig von Mises to tell us the ultimate truth! Ignore the real world, quick!

Bitcoin is doomed to fail with this kind of mindset in its community... the current price is just a bubble, it is going to burst sooner or later if real value in the form of goods and services is not introduced in near future. Mark my words ... those who sell last are going to be the suckers.

[Anonymous]

Scum of the Earth! If I wouldn't be that of a big believer in freedom and personal responsibility I would lock these people up the the worst prison until they rot!

I would lock these people up the the worst prison until they rot!

prison until they rot!

prison

So mr macho what are you going to do to people if they refuse to co-operate?

[anarchy]

I know it's hard but ignore him - he makes you crave to reply - that's his purpose.  Once you start ignoring trolls it becomes progressively easier the next time you encounter one   Save your energy for something better..

[kiba]

I am proud of this community. Despite Macho's insults, you guys play it swell and didn't insult Macho back.

[Macho]

So mr macho what are you going to do to people if they refuse to co-operate?

"If I wouldn't be that of a big believer in freedom and personal responsibility"

How do I deal with this kind of stupidity while not being a pompous ass?

I agree that we could grow up together, but it is just impossible to reasonably discuss with this kind of people who believe so bizarre things with so much certainty while outright refusing to consider anything else. These are religious fanatics. As Max Keiser calls them "financial terrorists", they are willing to terrorize the population because of their bizarre beliefs that profit justifies everything and speculation is the best thing since sliced bread. They are willing to go to unheard of extremes to justify these beliefs while quoting their economic priests like Mises and similar charlatans not understanding nor caring how it actually works in real world.

It's just impossible for me to remain calm and patient with people like this. I'm sure there are also reasonable people there in BTC community ... but I can't figure out why are they silent. then these religious fanatics are going to ruin it for everybody ... I can't take it anymore ...

I've been developing an application of my own for bitcoin but it doesn't give me much confidence that it is worthwhile when it is going to be overwhelmed by speculation and ponzi schemes ... we'll see.

[Macho]

Glad I don't live in a world with your moralities.

Yeah, I'm sure you enjoy seeing millions of men, women and children die of starvation all the time because some investment banker is taking his next big business into fruition. But I'm considered "immoral" for calling that banker scum ... and I'm supposed to be the one with values upside down?
 
So let's worship speculation and get offended by people calling scam a scam so we can ignore reality, sleep well at night and make some awesome profit without our conscience being moved.

I'm sad that I actually live in a world with moralities like yours

[kiba]

Glad I don't live in a world with your moralities.

Yeah, I'm sure you enjoy seeing millions of men, women and children die of starvation all the time because some investment banker is taking his next big business into fruition. But I'm considered "immoral" for calling that banker scum ... and I'm supposed to be the one with values upside down?
 
So let's worship speculation and get offended by people calling scam a scam so we can ignore reality, sleep well at night and make some awesome profit without our conscience being moved.

I'm sad that I actually live in a world with moralities like yours

Bitcoin is a capitalistic idea. What do you expect? Tree hugging hippies?

[Macho]

Bitcoin is a capitalistic idea. What do you expect? Tree hugging hippies.

ROFL.

This is it ... that it is a "capitalistic idea" justifies scams (or million of starved people to death in real economy) in your eyes? I'm hearing this all the time ... people working as slaves in sweatshops, response? It makes economic sense! Letting toxic waste into rivers, response? It's capitalism! Millions starved children? Yay for "free market"!

How can people in their right mind do this? Anybody who actually cares about people is called hippie? It is somehow cool to be coldblooded shark for profit? Does the fact that something "makes economic sense" justify the very real effects it has on human society? How for god's sakes? Economy is a human construct ... it should serve people, not the other way around!

I honestly can not comprehend this other than admitting that people have been simply brainwashed. They think that some virtual made up economic structure takes precedence over human values. How is this possible to achieve that people think like this? That if it makes profit it is good, that if somebody falls for it you're not responsible for him being robbed. That's like constructing booby traps all over your house and then laughing your ass off when your unsuspecting family members get slaughtered on them ... after all, they were stupid enough to walk right into them, right? Why should you who set them up be held responsible ... this is just some twisted logic, but it's real! Peope walk into those booby traps created by these people ... and they do get slaughtered en masse! This is no joke ... are you not concerned about that at all? "It's capitalist idea" is you answer? They deserve it? What the hell is wrong with you people?!

[bober182]

[Anonymous]

Bitcoin is a capitalistic idea. What do you expect? Tree hugging hippies.

ROFL.

This is it ... that it is a "capitalistic idea" justifies scams (or million of starved people to death in real economy) in your eyes? I'm hearing this all the time ... people working as slaves in sweatshops, response? It makes economic sense! Letting toxic waste into rivers, response? It's capitalism! Millions starved children? Yay for "free market"!

How can people in their right mind do this? Anybody who actually cares about people is called hippie? It is somehow cool to be coldblooded shark for profit? Does the fact that something "makes economic sense" justify the very real effects it has on human society? How for god's sakes? Economy is a human construct ... it should serve people, not the other way around!

I honestly can not comprehend this other than admitting that people have been simply brainwashed. They think that some virtual made up economic structure takes precedence over human values. How is this possible to achieve that people think like this? That if it makes profit it is good, that if somebody falls for it you're not responsible for him being robbed. That's like constructing booby traps all over your house and then laughing your ass off when your unsuspecting family members get slaughtered on them ... after all, they were stupid enough to walk right into them, right? Why should you who set them up be held responsible ... this is just some twisted logic, but it's real! Peope walk into those booby traps created by these people ... and they do get slaughtered en masse! This is no joke ... are you not concerned about that at all? "It's capitalist idea" is you answer? They deserve it? What the hell is wrong with you people?!

You have no idea do you? The current system is not capitalistic it is closer to fascism. That means business and government corporations are one and the same. It is the GOVERNMENT which allows their friends in business  get away with these atrocities. The GOVERNMENT steals your money and gives it to the corporations and bails them out. The GOVERNMENT accepts cash from lobbyists involved in corporations to let them skirt the laws that prevent a small business from competing and creates gigantic monopolies without competition.

A speculator without the backing of the GOVERNMENT will succeed or fail on their own terms, a speculator with the GOVERNMENT in their back pocket will make YOU pay for their mistakes. It becomes pure moral hazard which you are too blind to see.

Open your eyes and see the real culprits.

[kiba]

I don't know what you Macho and bober182 see in bitcoins.

Especially when the economy is inhabited and controlled by the very people you hate.

[grondilu]

I honestly can not comprehend this other than admitting that people have been simply brainwashed. They think that some virtual made up economic structure takes precedence over human values. How is this possible to achieve that people think like this? That if it makes profit it is good, that if somebody falls for it you're not responsible for him being robbed. That's like constructing booby traps all over your house and then laughing your ass off when your unsuspecting family members get slaughtered on them ... after all, they were stupid enough to walk right into them, right? Why should you who set them up be held responsible ... this is just some twisted logic, but it's real! Peope walk into those booby traps created by these people ... and they do get slaughtered en masse! This is no joke ... are you not concerned about that at all? "It's capitalist idea" is you answer? They deserve it? What the hell is wrong with you people?!

Why do you need to compare a commercial exchange to a situation where someone is falling into a trap and the other one is laughing about it ?  When to persons exchange goods, it is because it is in their interest, of both of them.   A gives x to B, and in exchange B gives y to A, because A needs y more than x and B needs x more than y.  It's a win-win.  Nobody is fooling anyone.   The thirsty one gives food to the humgry one, and the humgry one gives water to the thirsty one.

Stop thinking of capitalism as a way for people to fool others.  Capitalism is part of free martket, which is nothing but the voluntary exchange of stuffs.  There is nothing wrong about that, even in the hippy society you might be dreaming of.

[Bimmerhead]

Macho, you are absolutely out of control.  Your posts are the most dangerous things I have read on this forum.

This type of thinking, the idea that one can somehow 'know better' than the market, that one can somehow decide that speculators and financiers are immoral, that capitalism causes famine, this is the type of thinking that dominated the two greatest IMMORALITIES of the 20th century.  Communism and fascism.  I am appalled that this type of shallow thinking persists after all the world has learned.  Why does humanity have to be taught the same lessons over and over and over again!?

You talk about speculators driving up the cost of food.  What about all the farmers turning their corn into ethanol because some do-gooder much like yourself named Al Gore is imposing his 'morality' on the world, saying we need to 'get off oil'.  You think maybe that had something to do with the price of food?

Why don't you explain how it is that people starve in communist/state-directed economies all the time, but I have yet to hear of a famine in Switzerland, A COUNTRY COVERED IN SNOW HALF THE YEAR AND MOUNTAINS ALL OF THE YEAR.

Please tell us how speculation-free North Korea is such a bounteous land of plenty.

Explain how Cuba, not in any way subject to the whims of Wall St. bankers, exports desperate people clinging to planks of wood dying to reach oppressive Florida.

Remind us how those great instruments of state beneficence Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac set about to guarantee the mortgages of people who never should have had them guaranteed.  Tell us how that elitist plan turned out.

After the lessons of the 20th century, anybody who has the gall to think he knows better than the millions of decision-makers who make up the market really needs a humility transplant.

__________________

Getting back to the original post of this thread, I think that bit of speculative fever and some bubble action might be good for bitcoin in this way: it will bring a lot of attention and coverage that it wouldn't get otherwise.  That could very well expose bitcoin to some people who see it's practical benefits and will adopt it on that basis.

[Macho]

You have no idea do you? The current system is not capitalistic it is closer to fascism. That means business and government corporations are one and the same. It is the GOVERNMENT which allows their friends in business  get away with these atrocities. The GOVERNMENT steals your money and gives it to the corporations and bails them out. The GOVERNMENT accepts cash from lobbyists involved in corporations to let them skirt the laws that prevent a small business from competing and creates gigantic monopolies without competition.

A speculator without the backing of the GOVERNMENT will succeed or fail on their own terms, a speculator with the GOVERNMENT in their back pocket will make YOU pay for their mistakes. It becomes pure moral hazard which you are too blind to see.

Later phases of unchecked capitalism is fascism, it's one and the same. Fascism is completely predictable outcome of capitalism over time as corporations accumulate more and more influence, consolidate, form oligopolies and monopolies over time. This is exactly what happened, then they buy off the government when they accumulate enough of this influence ... this is also EXACTLY what happened. Congressmen (most of them at least) are then just puppets for hire by these corporations, isn't that obvious by now? The government becomes just a branch of corporations, they fuse A.K.A. fascism! That's what fascism is ... merger between corporations and government (according to Mussolini). And that's what happens when you believe in the type of wild predatory capitalism like many people here seem to believe in.

So government is not some detached entity like you seem to portray it, no no ... the government *is* the corporations at this point, it represents them. Just look where people in position of power come from (or are payed by), Monsanto, Goldman Sachs, Halliburton etc. etc. it's "capitalism" that hijacked the government and is working against the people to make them slaves ... because it "makes economic sense", there is profit in slaves you know ... and the people of the US are going to get it if they do not wake up.

[Bimmerhead]

Macho, did you read anything noagendamarket said?

Honestly, your comments are so surreal in this day and age I'm beginning to think you're putting us on.