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Author Topic: SpaceX and the prospects of Mars colonization.  (Read 31902 times)
ericaltm
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August 05, 2018, 05:47:10 PM
 #221

Countries are too busy fighting wars, and preparing for more wars, to make the time for going to Mars. All the talk about moon and Mars shots, exists simply to distract the people from the fascist military industrial complex building up more armaments for war.

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Easy solution. make the hashtag: '#MarsOverWars' viral

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August 05, 2018, 06:13:03 PM
 #222

.....
I guess it's just a question of semantics. You said, "There are no materials which are cheap enough on Mars and expensive enough on Earth to every make freight plausible." Typically, when you said something is cheap or expensive somewhere, you are referring to the price it costs to purchase it. When you say something is cheap on Mars it seems strange to me. Everything is free on Mars, since as far as we know, there's nobody up there claiming they own it already. The thing that is not free, would be to extract these materials. We would have to spend a lot of currency here on Earth to purchase needed materials and motivate people to do the necessary work. Maybe it would be better to say, "There are no materials which would be cheap enough to extract on Mars and valuable enough on Earth to every make freight plausible."

I'm okay with that wording. By the way, this has been gone through pretty exhaustively with respect to He3 on the surface of the Moon. There, it's well known that it's worth shipping it back to Earth. It's a fusion fuel which pretty much does not exist here. And because the Moon has no atmosphere and a low gravity, means of practical return-tank-to-earth exist.

Because of the heat/cold cycles of Lunar day, and the complete vacuum, there may well come to be various scientific experiments on the Moon for which it is desirable to return samples to earth.

There could also be scientific experiments on Mars for which sample return to Earth was plausible. Not that it would be economically efficient, just that some guys here wanted those samples at any cost.

But in terms of traditional materials production, metals, plastics, for example, there is nothing so rare or valuable that it could be returned to Earth for profit. I can envision some electronics being left out in the open on Mars, and then a solar storm occurring, and it being desirable to return the circuitry to Earth for detailed examination (learn how to make it better, right?)
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August 06, 2018, 07:45:29 PM
 #223

I'm okay with that wording. By the way, this has been gone through pretty exhaustively with respect to He3 on the surface of the Moon. There, it's well known that it's worth shipping it back to Earth. It's a fusion fuel which pretty much does not exist here. And because the Moon has no atmosphere and a low gravity, means of practical return-tank-to-earth exist.

Because of the heat/cold cycles of Lunar day, and the complete vacuum, there may well come to be various scientific experiments on the Moon for which it is desirable to return samples to earth.

There could also be scientific experiments on Mars for which sample return to Earth was plausible. Not that it would be economically efficient, just that some guys here wanted those samples at any cost.

But in terms of traditional materials production, metals, plastics, for example, there is nothing so rare or valuable that it could be returned to Earth for profit. I can envision some electronics being left out in the open on Mars, and then a solar storm occurring, and it being desirable to return the circuitry to Earth for detailed examination (learn how to make it better, right?)
This all sounds pretty fascinating. I had never heard about He3 specifically. Am I wrong in assuming that it should be much easier to travel to an land on the moon than on Mars? I think it's fine that some people dream of going to Mars, but wouldn't it be a good idea to trying landing on the moon again first. It seems ridiculous that people are actively working on visiting another planet, when we haven't even been able to visit the moon more than once.

Do we actually have a complete picture of all the resources available on Mars? It seems like there is often talk of them possible discovering water there. This leads me to believe that there very well may be resources there that we don't know about yet. Maybe it could becomes more plausible, when we have more info about what's up there.
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August 06, 2018, 10:28:27 PM
 #224

I'm okay with that wording. By the way, this has been gone through pretty exhaustively with respect to He3 on the surface of the Moon. There, it's well known that it's worth shipping it back to Earth. It's a fusion fuel which pretty much does not exist here. And because the Moon has no atmosphere and a low gravity, means of practical return-tank-to-earth exist.

Because of the heat/cold cycles of Lunar day, and the complete vacuum, there may well come to be various scientific experiments on the Moon for which it is desirable to return samples to earth.

There could also be scientific experiments on Mars for which sample return to Earth was plausible. Not that it would be economically efficient, just that some guys here wanted those samples at any cost.

But in terms of traditional materials production, metals, plastics, for example, there is nothing so rare or valuable that it could be returned to Earth for profit. I can envision some electronics being left out in the open on Mars, and then a solar storm occurring, and it being desirable to return the circuitry to Earth for detailed examination (learn how to make it better, right?)
This all sounds pretty fascinating. I had never heard about He3 specifically. Am I wrong in assuming that it should be much easier to travel to an land on the moon than on Mars? I think it's fine that some people dream of going to Mars, but wouldn't it be a good idea to trying landing on the moon again first. It seems ridiculous that people are actively working on visiting another planet, when we haven't even been able to visit the moon more than once.

Do we actually have a complete picture of all the resources available on Mars? It seems like there is often talk of them possible discovering water there. This leads me to believe that there very well may be resources there that we don't know about yet. Maybe it could becomes more plausible, when we have more info about what's up there.
The moon has some very interesting aspects but it is depleted in certain key elements of the periodic table such as H, C, N. That being the case means the Moon cannot support life by itself, and also means many things cannot be natively manufactured there. (plastics, carbon steel, ...)

Mars does have a full set of elements. It is farther away, but the rocket energy required for Mars is a bit less than the Moon.
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August 07, 2018, 12:17:41 AM
 #225

SpaceX and the prospects of Mars colonization.


1) Current unfeasibility of Mars massive colonization.

The goal of 1 million inhabitants on Mars in 50 years is unfeasible (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2017/06/21/elon-musk-create-city-mars-million-inhabitants/)

With the Big Falcon Rocket (BFR), at 100 passengers per flight, this would require 10,000 flights only to transport the people.

But the material support is about 10 times more demanding. So, as Elon Musk recognizes, the system would require 110,000 flights (see https://aeon.co/essays/elon-musk-puts-his-case-for-a-multi-planet-civilisation; see his 2017 presentation https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E4FY894HyF8).

Even at one flight a day, it would take 301 years. But since this is impossible, because one has to wait for the window every 26 months, when Mars is closer to Earth, transporting all these people would take hundreds of spacecrafts. This is completely beyond the normal resources of any company or country.

To finance the passengers flights, he would need to find 1 million people willing to pay 200,000 USDs to go live permanently on hell.

When he says that the goal is to make the price of the voyage similar to the price of a normal house, he suggest that people would sell their houses to buy the ticket.

I wonder how expensive would be a house in Mars! Is SpaceX going to build and offer a house to every colonist? Because if they are going to spend their savings and the value of their Earth house paying for the voyage, they won't have much left to buy a house there.

What about the standard of life on Mars? Things probably would be very expensive during the first decades, since most of the complex goods will be imported from Earth.

A fantasy company managed to enlist 200,000 people willing to go to Mars. I wonder how many of them had 200,0000 usds and were willing to spend them on the ticket.

So, probably, only the poor would be ready to try their luck, looking for well paid jobs on Mars. But they won't have 200,000 USDs.

Musk might find 1 million people willing to go and work there for very good jobs, but someone else would have to pay for the trip and pay them their wages.

Selling tourism trips won't pay the voyages either. I doubt he will be able to find many groups of 20 people willing to pay 1 million bucks to pay the ticket of the other 80 (he can make first and second class seats) for at least 2 years to go and return from hell, especially after the trip became more common.

It wouldn't be like a month on the Moon or on a tourist space station. With time to wait for the shortest return, it would be about spending more than two years on a living hell.

There isn't many people eager to go live on Antarctica, the most similar place on Earth.

And let's not forget about the complimentary radiation.

On Earth, on average, we get 1 millisievert (mSv) of radiation per year.

On a round trip to Mars, of about 1 year, one will receive 700 mSv!

But one has to add more 200 mSv per year for a person living in Mars.

So, with current technology, a 2 year adventure to Mars would give about 900 mSv to the tourist. Well, 1000 mSv (or 1 sievert) implies a 5% increase in chance to get cancer.

Moreover, radiation has neurological consequences since it attacks the neurons.

For someone living on Mars during several years without proper permanent protection the odds would be nasty.
 
Let's not forget about the damages that the about 1 year round trip to mars would create on health because of the 0 gravity on the Big Falcon Rocket (BFR).

According to the plans published, there won't be any artificial gravity on BFR.

1 year of 0 gravity can make someone lose between 12 and 18% of bone mass. And exercise can't avoid this consequence (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spaceflight_osteopenia).

Furthermore, "astronauts experience up to a 20 percent loss of muscle mass on spaceflights lasting five to 11 days" (https://www.nasa.gov/pdf/64249main_ffs_factsheets_hbp_atrophy.pdf).  Daily exercise can mitigate some of the consequences on the muscle mass, but not all.

Even Mars gravity of 38% of Earths one will be very damaging to anyone living there for a few years.

Therefore, unless there are on Mars very valuable resources, that would pay for the trips (people and resources going to Mars and resources coming back to Earth), with current technology of space flight, Mars will be dependent on Earth, with a few thousand or, probably, hundreds, of inhabitants.

We'll be a two planets species, but the second planet will end badly if the first planet ends badly too. Only with new technology on flight, Mars will be able to be independent.

The goal of making humankind a dual planet species is very worthy from the perspective of ensuring that we can endure millions of years more.

But normal people, who care first about how to pay their bills, just do what is practical to this goal and hope for the best. They won't ruin their life to go to Mars and ensure some of us will survive on the remote case that a catastrophe strikes Earth.

If massive colonization of Mars isn't economically feasible, it won't happen.


2) SpaceX deserves credit about its capacity to go to Mars.

 

Anyway, make no mistake, even if its plans to colonize Mars seem too optimistic, SpaceX already showed that it can make the trip to Mars.

 

Musk seems like an obsessive person. He won’t rest until he takes humans there.

 

They have been paid by NASA to send and return cargo to the International Space Station with excellent results.

 

After some delays, they launched successfully their Falcon Heavy, probably will start sending NASA astronauts to the International Space Station on 2018 (or perhaps 2019) and are promising an unmanned first trip to Mars on 2020 (initially was planned to 2018).

 

Of course, if some of NASA's astronauts ends up killed on a disaster, we can expect another delay of many years.

 

Don't mix Space X with all those dreamers, without a penny, that have big imaginary or fake plans.
 

If Space X is able to send humans to Mars sooner than NASA (Space X is saying 2025, but this recent delay of the first unmanned confirmed that this date is unfeasible), even if with NASA cooperation (if NASA figures out that Musk is really going to make it, they will jump on board), Musk will have his deserved place in History, side by side with Von Braun and Korolev (don’t compare Gagarin or Armstrong with them, beside courage, they had little merit: many people could have been in their place; is like comparing Colombus with one of his sailors).



3) Why go to Mars?

 

It will be fantastic to humankind in terms of pride and self-esteem to go to Mars and build a permanent station there for investigation and some scarce tourism, but we won't have more than that until we find economic reason to do more.

 

Some would say, hell, are we going to spend billions just for pride and self-esteem ("fun"), when we could use this money to eradicate poverty and cure diseases?

 

Well, we spend much more (trillions) just for fun on millions of things.

 

Just think about how much we spend making movies. Many are now costing more than 300 millions. The Martian had a budget of 108 million.

 

Mars Semi-direct, a revised low budget human trip to Mars, would cost 55 billion (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mars_Direct#Mars_Semi-Direct).

 

But Elon Musk says he can build the Mars rocket for 10 billion (https://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/28/science/elon-musk-spacex-mars-exploration.html?_r=0). But let’s put the price of the trip at 20 billion (probably, it will cost more, but let’s accept this number).

 

That is the price of 66 movies of 300 millions each. Isn’t worthy? I bet we have spent much more than 20 billion making science fiction movies.

 

As we seen, the goal about making us a real multiplanetary species is still science and economical fiction, so we are not going there for this (valuable) reason.

 

We can say that for humans to have a future, it must be in space, because the sun is going to burn almost all life on Earth on 1 or 2 billion years.

 

But that is so far in the future that our chances to go extinct for any other reason are much higher and we have plenty of time to improve our technology.

 

Shore, the trip and the creation of a Mars’ base will improve our technology and might allow some scientific discoveries.

 

But we don’t want to go there because of these reasons.

 

We would press to go even if there weren’t any technological advances.

 

Moreover, the rovers are doing a good job confirming that, probably, there isn’t life there.

 

We do many costly things for non practical reasons.

 

In the end, economics is an instrument for our real goals and these are purely psychological.

 

For instance, we want to earn money not for the money on it self, but also to feel some positive emotions, including security, independence, freedom to do what we want, etc, and not just for the goods we can buy.

 

On the sixties of the last century, the USA and the Soviet Union spent billions on the race to the Moon just trying to show the world what was the best political system.

 

Musk argues with the idea of converting us on a two planets species to rationalize his quest, but he won't see it on his lifetime (unless he starts investing a lot on anti-aging investigation) or there is a major breakthrough on space flight technology.

 

He adds that the real goal is to do inspiring things. He also means historical things. He is chasing his place in History, trying to reach out immortality.

 

And I have nothing to say against that. It is people like him who took us from our stone age caves, since most of us haven't done and won't do anything really important during all our life.

 

We want to go to Mars because it would make us proud to be humans like nothing else. And this is why we are going there sooner than to any asteroid, even if it had valuable minerals.

 

No doubt, if we waited 50 years more, we could go for much less money and lesser risks, but why give the glory to our sons and grandsons?

 

Since our fathers and grandfathers wasted their opportunity, let's take it ourselves.

 

The way I use the word "we" and "us", even if I won't have any role on the voyage, is similar to the way people talk about sport successes: they never say their club or country won, they say "we won".

 

It's this individual/collective appropriation of the successes of other people that give so much psychological importance to events that in reality are practically irrelevant to our life (at least on the short run), like going to Mars.

 

It will be if all of us had a role on this historical success for Humankind.

 

Let’s go to Mars for psychological reasons, because life is all about this.

 

We will have time to go again and make it our second home, for more practical reasons.






would you take a space x coin?

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August 07, 2018, 01:01:22 AM
 #226

...
would you take a space x coin?
Hell no.

Because they have an 18th century concept of colonization.

The 21st century of space colonization will be massive numbers of robots and production facilities FIRST. This will happen with simultaneous creation of an economy on Mars.

After suitable industry and human habitats are built, after chemical and industrial stocks are in place, after some forms of food production have been proven for a decade or two, then and only then some people go.
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August 07, 2018, 04:08:46 PM
 #227

The moon has some very interesting aspects but it is depleted in certain key elements of the periodic table such as H, C, N. That being the case means the Moon cannot support life by itself, and also means many things cannot be natively manufactured there. (plastics, carbon steel, ...)

Mars does have a full set of elements. It is farther away, but the rocket energy required for Mars is a bit less than the Moon.
Cool. Thanks for sharing. It's nice to talk to somebody who seems to know so much. It's really interesting that it requires less rocket energy to get to Mars than to the moon. Does this mean that we could have landed on Mars already instead of the moon? It would kinda be funny if we had already been on another planet before we were on our moon. It would be interesting if we could just skip ahead 50 years and see if there will actually be any breakthroughs in space travel in the near future.
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August 07, 2018, 10:15:49 PM
 #228

The moon has some very interesting aspects but it is depleted in certain key elements of the periodic table such as H, C, N. That being the case means the Moon cannot support life by itself, and also means many things cannot be natively manufactured there. (plastics, carbon steel, ...)

Mars does have a full set of elements. It is farther away, but the rocket energy required for Mars is a bit less than the Moon.
Cool. Thanks for sharing. It's nice to talk to somebody who seems to know so much. It's really interesting that it requires less rocket energy to get to Mars than to the moon. Does this mean that we could have landed on Mars already instead of the moon? It would kinda be funny if we had already been on another planet before we were on our moon. It would be interesting if we could just skip ahead 50 years and see if there will actually be any breakthroughs in space travel in the near future.

Well, how different is air travel 1968 - 2018?
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August 08, 2018, 11:10:43 AM
 #229

The moon has some very interesting aspects but it is depleted in certain key elements of the periodic table such as H, C, N. That being the case means the Moon cannot support life by itself, and also means many things cannot be natively manufactured there. (plastics, carbon steel, ...)

Mars does have a full set of elements. It is farther away, but the rocket energy required for Mars is a bit less than the Moon.
Cool. Thanks for sharing. It's nice to talk to somebody who seems to know so much. It's really interesting that it requires less rocket energy to get to Mars than to the moon. Does this mean that we could have landed on Mars already instead of the moon? It would kinda be funny if we had already been on another planet before we were on our moon. It would be interesting if we could just skip ahead 50 years and see if there will actually be any breakthroughs in space travel in the near future.

Well, how different is air travel 1968 - 2018?
Haha, good question. This reminded me of a Buzzfeed article I saw a while back. They are saying that air travel was actually better in the 1960s: https://www.buzzfeed.com/gabrielsanchez/air-travel-was-way-better-in-the-1960s. It did seem more spacious and fancy. I'm assuming it was much more expensive back then to fly relative to inflation than it is now. For the most part air travel doesn't seem to have changed that much, but I guess the planes have gotten bigger and they don't need to stop to fuel up like they used to usually. That last point is pretty significant in comparison to space travel. If planes can fly further now than they could 50 years ago, then maybe in 50 more years the spaceships will be able to fly further.
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August 08, 2018, 01:52:53 PM
 #230

The moon has some very interesting aspects but it is depleted in certain key elements of the periodic table such as H, C, N. That being the case means the Moon cannot support life by itself, and also means many things cannot be natively manufactured there. (plastics, carbon steel, ...)

Mars does have a full set of elements. It is farther away, but the rocket energy required for Mars is a bit less than the Moon.
Cool. Thanks for sharing. It's nice to talk to somebody who seems to know so much. It's really interesting that it requires less rocket energy to get to Mars than to the moon. Does this mean that we could have landed on Mars already instead of the moon? It would kinda be funny if we had already been on another planet before we were on our moon. It would be interesting if we could just skip ahead 50 years and see if there will actually be any breakthroughs in space travel in the near future.



Well, how different is air travel 1968 - 2018?
Haha, good question. This reminded me of a Buzzfeed article I saw a while back. They are saying that air travel was actually better in the 1960s: https://www.buzzfeed.com/gabrielsanchez/air-travel-was-way-better-in-the-1960s. It did seem more spacious and fancy. I'm assuming it was much more expensive back then to fly relative to inflation than it is now. For the most part air travel doesn't seem to have changed that much, but I guess the planes have gotten bigger and they don't need to stop to fuel up like they used to usually. That last point is pretty significant in comparison to space travel. If planes can fly further now than they could 50 years ago, then maybe in 50 more years the spaceships will be able to fly further.

Probably so. But in space, everything is moving, so "further" means "longer." For example, the relatively huge ship displayed in "The Martian" is not unrealistic for a 2-3 year voyage for a half dozen people.
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August 08, 2018, 05:11:43 PM
 #231

The whole Mars thing is stupid. If we wanted to go, we could have done it back in the 1960s. See: To the stars by atom bomb: The incredible tale of the top secret Orion Project - https://newatlas.com/orion-project-atom-bomb-spaceship/49454/. We have had the ability for decades.

Cool

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August 09, 2018, 12:45:47 PM
 #232

The moon has some very interesting aspects but it is depleted in certain key elements of the periodic table such as H, C, N. That being the case means the Moon cannot support life by itself, and also means many things cannot be natively manufactured there. (plastics, carbon steel, ...)

Mars does have a full set of elements. It is farther away, but the rocket energy required for Mars is a bit less than the Moon.
Cool. Thanks for sharing. It's nice to talk to somebody who seems to know so much. It's really interesting that it requires less rocket energy to get to Mars than to the moon. Does this mean that we could have landed on Mars already instead of the moon? It would kinda be funny if we had already been on another planet before we were on our moon. It would be interesting if we could just skip ahead 50 years and see if there will actually be any breakthroughs in space travel in the near future.

Well, how different is air travel 1968 - 2018?
Haha, good question. This reminded me of a Buzzfeed article I saw a while back. They are saying that air travel was actually better in the 1960s: https://www.buzzfeed.com/gabrielsanchez/air-travel-was-way-better-in-the-1960s. It did seem more spacious and fancy. I'm assuming it was much more expensive back then to fly relative to inflation than it is now. For the most part air travel doesn't seem to have changed that much, but I guess the planes have gotten bigger and they don't need to stop to fuel up like they used to usually. That last point is pretty significant in comparison to space travel. If planes can fly further now than they could 50 years ago, then maybe in 50 more years the spaceships will be able to fly further.

Probably so. But in space, everything is moving, so "further" means "longer." For example, the relatively huge ship displayed in "The Martian" is not unrealistic for a 2-3 year voyage for a half dozen people.
What do you mean by that? Everything this is moving? You mean that Mars is getting farther away? Isn't that always changing? Sometimes it's actually getting closer. It's also very possible that we could make ships that travel faster, couldn't we? That would also reduce travel time. 2-3 years to get to Mars does sound like a whole lot of time though. That's certainly no trip the corner store!
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August 09, 2018, 02:10:42 PM
 #233


What do you mean by that? Everything this is moving? You mean that Mars is getting farther away? Isn't that always changing? Sometimes it's actually getting closer. It's also very possible that we could make ships that travel faster, couldn't we? That would also reduce travel time. 2-3 years to get to Mars does sound like a whole lot of time though. That's certainly no trip the corner store!

That's why they are training teenagers for Mars... and also, because the kids look at the glory, not having had experience of life enough to understand the stupidity.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/991538/space-news-mars-manned-mission-alyssa-carson-nasa-astronaut

Cool

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August 10, 2018, 03:18:34 PM
 #234


What do you mean by that? Everything this is moving? You mean that Mars is getting farther away? Isn't that always changing? Sometimes it's actually getting closer. It's also very possible that we could make ships that travel faster, couldn't we? That would also reduce travel time. 2-3 years to get to Mars does sound like a whole lot of time though. That's certainly no trip the corner store!

That's why they are training teenagers for Mars... and also, because the kids look at the glory, not having had experience of life enough to understand the stupidity.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/991538/space-news-mars-manned-mission-alyssa-carson-nasa-astronaut

Cool
How does that explain that "Past candidates have ranged in age from 26 to 46, with the average age being 34"? If you get less stupid the older you get, then, by your logic, the age of astronauts should be much younger. It's interesting that she's learning Chinese, French and Spanish. Seems like the Russians are getting left out on future space travel. I had no idea that Spanish speakers are playing a bit role in space. I remember when Cirque du Soleil's founder, Guy Laliberte, went to space, he had to study Russian beforehand. It seems pretty ambitious to say you're going to Mars in 2033, when you don't even have the rockets to do it yet: "NASA is currently in the early stages of planning its first manned mission to Mars, with experts developing new rockets capable of getting a spacecraft there - and back to Earth again." I guess time will tell.
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August 10, 2018, 03:48:17 PM
 #235

We can't even get back to the moon (not sure if we ever made it there in the first place) and some of you guys think we can actually get to Mars? Doubtful.  USA has to spend 600billion + a year on its military instead. sigh
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August 10, 2018, 06:21:23 PM
 #236





They tell me the small twinkling orange light in the sky called Mars is a giant heavy ball and that a man named Musk is going fly a rocket there and grow red potatoes.
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August 10, 2018, 09:48:30 PM
 #237


What do you mean by that? Everything this is moving? You mean that Mars is getting farther away? Isn't that always changing? Sometimes it's actually getting closer. It's also very possible that we could make ships that travel faster, couldn't we? That would also reduce travel time. 2-3 years to get to Mars does sound like a whole lot of time though. That's certainly no trip the corner store!

That's why they are training teenagers for Mars... and also, because the kids look at the glory, not having had experience of life enough to understand the stupidity.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/991538/space-news-mars-manned-mission-alyssa-carson-nasa-astronaut

Cool
How does that explain that "Past candidates have ranged in age from 26 to 46, with the average age being 34"? If you get less stupid the older you get, then, by your logic, the age of astronauts should be much younger. It's interesting that she's learning Chinese, French and Spanish. Seems like the Russians are getting left out on future space travel. I had no idea that Spanish speakers are playing a bit role in space. I remember when Cirque du Soleil's founder, Guy Laliberte, went to space, he had to study Russian beforehand. It seems pretty ambitious to say you're going to Mars in 2033, when you don't even have the rockets to do it yet: "NASA is currently in the early stages of planning its first manned mission to Mars, with experts developing new rockets capable of getting a spacecraft there - and back to Earth again." I guess time will tell.

Come on and think a little.

Going to Mars might take 2 or 3 years. A teenager might be older than 22 when he gets to Mars. This is because he is in training now, as a teenager, but won't lift off for as many as 5 years or more.

Once he gets to Mars, he won't simply jump out of the lander and build a house and plant a garden. He might remain in the lander as long as a year, familiarizing himself with the terrain and climate, and sending out robot vehicles to get a clearer picture of what Mars really is.

Once the semi-robotic habitats are set up, and reasonable certainty has been made that they will support human life, then the teenager(s) might finally transfer to the habitats.

Then there's the setting up of the greenhouses, and finding out what kind of food will truly grow on Mars.

And on and on. It will be surprising if the kids haven't reached 50 years by the time that they are settled into "colony" life on Mars. But if things don't go smoothly, they might be 70... or they might be dead.

And what if there is war on Earth, and they have to reproduce on Mars, so that their kids and grandkids can possibly come back... after mining Mars for supplies to refuel the lander and orbiter. Will they be ready to avoid the radiation hot spots on earth from the home planet nuclear wars?

Sounds like science fiction, right? Well, it is. That's why teenagers... so they can live a long life out there if necessary.

Cool

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August 11, 2018, 08:14:38 PM
 #238

Come on and think a little.

Going to Mars might take 2 or 3 years. A teenager might be older than 22 when he gets to Mars. This is because he is in training now, as a teenager, but won't lift off for as many as 5 years or more.

Once he gets to Mars, he won't simply jump out of the lander and build a house and plant a garden. He might remain in the lander as long as a year, familiarizing himself with the terrain and climate, and sending out robot vehicles to get a clearer picture of what Mars really is.

Once the semi-robotic habitats are set up, and reasonable certainty has been made that they will support human life, then the teenager(s) might finally transfer to the habitats.

Then there's the setting up of the greenhouses, and finding out what kind of food will truly grow on Mars.

And on and on. It will be surprising if the kids haven't reached 50 years by the time that they are settled into "colony" life on Mars. But if things don't go smoothly, they might be 70... or they might be dead.

And what if there is war on Earth, and they have to reproduce on Mars, so that their kids and grandkids can possibly come back... after mining Mars for supplies to refuel the lander and orbiter. Will they be ready to avoid the radiation hot spots on earth from the home planet nuclear wars?

Sounds like science fiction, right? Well, it is. That's why teenagers... so they can live a long life out there if necessary.

Cool
Why ever would they stay there for 20-40 years? Are they seriously planning to make ships that would only go one way? If I were going to Mars, I'd want a round-trip ticket. I don't think anybody's talking about leaving people up there for that long. I don't remember who threw out the numbers of it taking 2-3 years to get to Mars, but that's not what Google is telling me. Here is how long it took for historic missions to reach Mars:
    Mariner 4, the first spacecraft to go to Mars (1965 flyby): 228 days
    Mariner 6 (1969 flyby): 155 days
    Mariner 7 (1969 flyby): 128 days
    Mariner 9, the first spacecraft to orbit Mars (1971): 168 days
    Viking 1, the first U.S. craft to land on Mars (1975): 304 days
    Viking 2 Orbiter/Lander (1975): 333 days
    Mars Global Surveyor (1996): 308 days
    Mars Pathfinder (1996): 212 days
    Mars Odyssey (2001): 200 days
    Mars Express Orbiter (2003): 201 days
    Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter (2005): 210 days
    Mars Science Laboratory (2011): 254 days
It doesn't look like it's even going to take a year. That seems much more bearable. So, you could actually go to Mars, do some work there and come back within a few years.
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August 11, 2018, 08:47:48 PM
 #239

Come on and think a little.

Going to Mars might take 2 or 3 years. A teenager might be older than 22 when he gets to Mars. This is because he is in training now, as a teenager, but won't lift off for as many as 5 years or more.

Once he gets to Mars, he won't simply jump out of the lander and build a house and plant a garden. He might remain in the lander as long as a year, familiarizing himself with the terrain and climate, and sending out robot vehicles to get a clearer picture of what Mars really is.

Once the semi-robotic habitats are set up, and reasonable certainty has been made that they will support human life, then the teenager(s) might finally transfer to the habitats.

Then there's the setting up of the greenhouses, and finding out what kind of food will truly grow on Mars.

And on and on. It will be surprising if the kids haven't reached 50 years by the time that they are settled into "colony" life on Mars. But if things don't go smoothly, they might be 70... or they might be dead.

And what if there is war on Earth, and they have to reproduce on Mars, so that their kids and grandkids can possibly come back... after mining Mars for supplies to refuel the lander and orbiter. Will they be ready to avoid the radiation hot spots on earth from the home planet nuclear wars?

Sounds like science fiction, right? Well, it is. That's why teenagers... so they can live a long life out there if necessary.

Cool
Why ever would they stay there for 20-40 years? Are they seriously planning to make ships that would only go one way? If I were going to Mars, I'd want a round-trip ticket. I don't think anybody's talking about leaving people up there for that long. I don't remember who threw out the numbers of it taking 2-3 years to get to Mars, but that's not what Google is telling me. Here is how long it took for historic missions to reach Mars:
    Mariner 4, the first spacecraft to go to Mars (1965 flyby): 228 days
    Mariner 6 (1969 flyby): 155 days
    Mariner 7 (1969 flyby): 128 days
    Mariner 9, the first spacecraft to orbit Mars (1971): 168 days
    Viking 1, the first U.S. craft to land on Mars (1975): 304 days
    Viking 2 Orbiter/Lander (1975): 333 days
    Mars Global Surveyor (1996): 308 days
    Mars Pathfinder (1996): 212 days
    Mars Odyssey (2001): 200 days
    Mars Express Orbiter (2003): 201 days
    Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter (2005): 210 days
    Mars Science Laboratory (2011): 254 days
It doesn't look like it's even going to take a year. That seems much more bearable. So, you could actually go to Mars, do some work there and come back within a few years.

Now, think about what you just said.

Those "spacecraft" were unmanned. They cost $millions or $billions. They often barely made it. They never came back, and couldn't if we wanted them to.

Even if a manned vehicle made it in a year, there's a $ton $more $expense to going there manned, and if we try to do it too fast, there would have to be even $more $expense to set things up onboard so that people could withstand the rigors of acceleration/deceleration to do it in a year safely.

With war looming, there's no way to focus on a manned Mars mission with any idea of practicality, safety, and success.

Doesn't look like we will ever be going. Looks more like a drive to get people to give more money to Congress for something that will never happen. I mean, what did we spend on going to the moon? And what did it get us? $Lots and virtually nothing. And the guys that went, barely came back. If there had been great success in all areas of manned moon missions, we would have had bases on the moon long ago, with daily flights for the public a reality.

Mars shots are just a publicity campaign... to sucker more money out of the people.

Cool

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August 12, 2018, 09:53:44 AM
 #240

^^^
1. Pretends Mars and the Moon are heavy balls in the sky with no barrier between them and that men can ride rockets to get there.
2. Constructs some convoluted reason why landing a man on Mars won't happen knowing full well that it's impossible.
3. Profit.
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