SpaceX and the prospects of Mars colonization.

[Spendulus]

....
This is a good question... a difficult one to visualize without computer models. The heat is dissipated by not even reaching the rocket skin. It is dissipated in the steam. ....

Intriguing question. Did Musk run the simulations? Or is he only talking at this stage of the game?

It's not that complicated a problem.

Neither is it any kind of an important problem.

"Water ejected at the nosecone" would literally be exploding in the local environment, as measured by joules released per pound of high explosive versus joules absorbed by the water ejected. This explosion would create a back pressure wave against the spaceship, that will directly impact its surface. Because that wave's speed is higher than the speed of sound in stainless steel, the structures made of stainless will disintegrate.

It's not steam as you are thinking of it.

I was fortunate one time to see the plasma trail of a shuttle re entry, that was a white column across the sky about the size of the Moon east to west. It dissipated within a minute or two. That trail was disassociated atoms from the heat of re entry....

You said it. Disassociated water. Taking the heat of re-entry along with it so that it doesn't harm the vehicle.

What I said was that the vehicle would disintegrate.

[BADecker]

....
This is a good question... a difficult one to visualize without computer models. The heat is dissipated by not even reaching the rocket skin. It is dissipated in the steam. ....

Intriguing question. Did Musk run the simulations? Or is he only talking at this stage of the game?

It's not that complicated a problem.

Neither is it any kind of an important problem.

"Water ejected at the nosecone" would literally be exploding in the local environment, as measured by joules released per pound of high explosive versus joules absorbed by the water ejected. This explosion would create a back pressure wave against the spaceship, that will directly impact its surface. Because that wave's speed is higher than the speed of sound in stainless steel, the structures made of stainless will disintegrate.

It's not steam as you are thinking of it.

I was fortunate one time to see the plasma trail of a shuttle re entry, that was a white column across the sky about the size of the Moon east to west. It dissipated within a minute or two. That trail was disassociated atoms from the heat of re entry....

You said it. Disassociated water. Taking the heat of re-entry along with it so that it doesn't harm the vehicle.

What I said was that the vehicle would disintegrate.

You contradicted it with the water disassociation.     

[Spendulus]

....
This is a good question... a difficult one to visualize without computer models. The heat is dissipated by not even reaching the rocket skin. It is dissipated in the steam. ....

Intriguing question. Did Musk run the simulations? Or is he only talking at this stage of the game?

It's not that complicated a problem.

Neither is it any kind of an important problem.

"Water ejected at the nosecone" would literally be exploding in the local environment, as measured by joules released per pound of high explosive versus joules absorbed by the water ejected. This explosion would create a back pressure wave against the spaceship, that will directly impact its surface. Because that wave's speed is higher than the speed of sound in stainless steel, the structures made of stainless will disintegrate.

It's not steam as you are thinking of it.

I was fortunate one time to see the plasma trail of a shuttle re entry, that was a white column across the sky about the size of the Moon east to west. It dissipated within a minute or two. That trail was disassociated atoms from the heat of re entry....

You said it. Disassociated water. Taking the heat of re-entry along with it so that it doesn't harm the vehicle.

What I said was that the vehicle would disintegrate.

You contradicted it with the water disassociation.     

I don't have any interest in arguing with you if you don't understand something I said.

[BADecker]

....
This is a good question... a difficult one to visualize without computer models. The heat is dissipated by not even reaching the rocket skin. It is dissipated in the steam. ....

Intriguing question. Did Musk run the simulations? Or is he only talking at this stage of the game?

It's not that complicated a problem.

Neither is it any kind of an important problem.

"Water ejected at the nosecone" would literally be exploding in the local environment, as measured by joules released per pound of high explosive versus joules absorbed by the water ejected. This explosion would create a back pressure wave against the spaceship, that will directly impact its surface. Because that wave's speed is higher than the speed of sound in stainless steel, the structures made of stainless will disintegrate.

It's not steam as you are thinking of it.

I was fortunate one time to see the plasma trail of a shuttle re entry, that was a white column across the sky about the size of the Moon east to west. It dissipated within a minute or two. That trail was disassociated atoms from the heat of re entry....

You said it. Disassociated water. Taking the heat of re-entry along with it so that it doesn't harm the vehicle.

What I said was that the vehicle would disintegrate.

You contradicted it with the water disassociation.     

I don't have any interest in arguing with you if you don't understand something I said.

The steam takes up the shatter vibration and disburses and disipates it into the atmosphere, harmlessly. Do you understand what you said? If you argue with yourself, don't let it become a quarrel. You might hurt yourself.

[Spendulus]

....

I don't have any interest in arguing with you if you don't understand something I said.

The steam takes up the shatter vibration and disburses and disipates it into the atmosphere, harmlessly. ....

No it does not but if you want to keep at it, please show your equations.

[BADecker]

....

I don't have any interest in arguing with you if you don't understand something I said.

The steam takes up the shatter vibration and disburses and disipates it into the atmosphere, harmlessly. ....

No it does not but if you want to keep at it, please show your equations.

But that is the thing I asked for a long time ago. Does Musk have computer models, or is it just an idea for him?

$Billionaires are just people like everyone else. But a lot of people would like to be $billionaires, but don't know the first step or how to find the first step.

Does Musk have anything more than simple talk for this idea?

[Spendulus]

Does Musk have anything more than simple talk for this idea?

It does not matter. You look at the physics and get the answer, period.

[BADecker]

Does Musk have anything more than simple talk for this idea?

It does not matter. You look at the physics and get the answer, period.

The physics of fluids in motion is incomplete because of the variety of characteristics that fluids can hold.

However, a compressible fluid can be a shock absorber because of its elasticity and compressibility... at least until it is compressed so firmly that it starts to lose its fluidity. This suggests that the shock of atmospheric change as it flows around the vehicle will be absorbed by the cushion of steam. Because of the rapid movement of the vehicle, the shock will be past the falling vehicle before the steam cushion can transmit the shock to the vehicle itself.

Does Musk have reliable data about this? Is the data only simulations? Or did he manage to do some actual tests somewhere along the line?

[Artemis3]

You might want to see this youtube video:

Why SpaceX ditched lightweight Carbon Composites for Stainless Steel to make a sweaty Starship


Liquid methane flowing, sounds like water methane cooling, which evaporates into a gas and then it bleeds away...

[BADecker]

You might want to see this youtube video:

Why SpaceX ditched lightweight Carbon Composites for Stainless Steel to make a sweaty Starship


Liquid methane flowing, sounds like water methane cooling, which evaporates into a gas and then it bleeds away...

Interesting. Thanks.

Lets hope they run out of methane before they get close to the oxygen in the atmosphere.

    

[Artemis3]

Interesting. Thanks.

Lets hope they run out of methane before they get close to the oxygen in the atmosphere.

    

Elon Musk was interviewed about this, and he said:

"You flow either fuel or water in between the sandwich layer, and then you have micro-perforations on the outside—very tiny perforations—and you essentially bleed water, or you could bleed fuel, through the micro-perforations on the outside."

So what are they up to?

[Spendulus]

Interesting. Thanks.

Lets hope they run out of methane before they get close to the oxygen in the atmosphere.

    

Elon Musk was interviewed about this, and he said:

"You flow either fuel or water in between the sandwich layer, and then you have micro-perforations on the outside—very tiny perforations—and you essentially bleed water, or you could bleed fuel, through the micro-perforations on the outside."

So what are they up to?

It's an old, old idea. I'm not buying it being better or even workable. This is kind of like solving a non-problem. We know all kinds of really good and reliable ways to do a re-entry.

[Artemis3]

Here is another youtube video on the subject:



Why SpaceX Built A Stainless Steel Starship

[Spendulus]

Here is another youtube video on the subject:
....

however if you look at the total joules of energy to be dissipated during re entry, and then the heat of vaporization of methane or water, the numbers do not add up.

It can be done but it's not a spectacular innovation like the vertical landing of the boosters.

[BADecker]

Here is another youtube video on the subject:
....

however if you look at the total joules of energy to be dissipated during re entry, and then the heat of vaporization of methane or water, the numbers do not add up.

It can be done but it's not a spectacular innovation like the vertical landing of the boosters.

Yet, as shown in one of my previous posts, water can be heated to 5,000 degrees F, and probably above, and is done so in gasoline engines at times.

When you combine this with the pressure of the atmosphere flying by on re-entry, it's difficult to envision what will actually happen. We need some computer simulations, and some actual tests to tell for sure. The steam layer around the spaceship doesn't need to be very thick.

If one uses methane rather than water, the burning of the methane with the oxygen in the atmosphere, just might maintain a set temperature by its explosive burning, which could push extra heat away from and around the spacecraft, because there isn't enough time for extra heat to penetrate the "steam" by convection.

We really need some tests, starting with computer simulations. Does Musk have any of these?

[Spendulus]

Here is another youtube video on the subject:
....

however if you look at the total joules of energy to be dissipated during re entry, and then the heat of vaporization of methane or water, the numbers do not add up.

It can be done but it's not a spectacular innovation like the vertical landing of the boosters.

Yet, as shown in one of my previous posts, water can be heated to 5,000 degrees F, and probably above, and is done so in gasoline engines at times.

When you combine this with the pressure of the atmosphere flying by on re-entry, it's difficult to envision what will actually happen. We need some computer simulations, and some actual tests to tell for sure. The steam layer around the spaceship doesn't need to be very thick.

If one uses methane rather than water, the burning of the methane with the oxygen in the atmosphere, just might maintain a set temperature by its explosive burning, which could push extra heat away from and around the spacecraft, because there isn't enough time for extra heat to penetrate the "steam" by convection.

We really need some tests, starting with computer simulations. Does Musk have any of these?

None of what you said bears any relation to reality.

There would be no burning of methane around the spacecraft because of nature of combustion.

All aspects of the question/issue are amendable to one dimensional heat transfer calculations.

No, water isn't heated to 5000 in IC engines.

This is basic rocket science and engineering.

[BADecker]

Here is another youtube video on the subject:
....

however if you look at the total joules of energy to be dissipated during re entry, and then the heat of vaporization of methane or water, the numbers do not add up.

It can be done but it's not a spectacular innovation like the vertical landing of the boosters.

Yet, as shown in one of my previous posts, water can be heated to 5,000 degrees F, and probably above, and is done so in gasoline engines at times.

When you combine this with the pressure of the atmosphere flying by on re-entry, it's difficult to envision what will actually happen. We need some computer simulations, and some actual tests to tell for sure. The steam layer around the spaceship doesn't need to be very thick.

If one uses methane rather than water, the burning of the methane with the oxygen in the atmosphere, just might maintain a set temperature by its explosive burning, which could push extra heat away from and around the spacecraft, because there isn't enough time for extra heat to penetrate the "steam" by convection.

We really need some tests, starting with computer simulations. Does Musk have any of these?

None of what you said bears any relation to reality.

There would be no burning of methane around the spacecraft because of nature of combustion.

All aspects of the question/issue are amendable to one dimensional heat transfer calculations.

No, water isn't heated to 5000 in IC engines.

This is basic rocket science and engineering.

If water isn't heated to 5,000 degrees in IC engines at times, then the old Motor's Manual is a liar. Back in the '60s these manuals had a general training section in them that explained this.

How do you know that there would be no burning of methane around the spacecraft? There might be limited burning because of how fast the vehicle would be moving, and the small amount of time that even the outer fringes of the methane would have to mix with the atmospheric oxygen, but to say that there would be no burning... how do you know? Diesel engine pistons can move quite rapidly, yet the fuel has time to mix in the cylinder and to burn quite cleanly. Why not methane and the atmosphere?

What does that even mean? Or are you saying that you don't really know what you are talking about?

Being basic rocket science means that somebody has already done this with rockets, right? That's exactly the operations that I and others are looking for. If it is basic rocket science, Musk would know about it, and that would be why he would be talking about it to use it, right? Do you have the literal test or usage reports? Or the locations where such reports can be found? Are any of the test locations websites?

[Spendulus]

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How do you know that there would be no burning of methane around the spacecraft?....

because reentry is at 50-100 miles altitude, near vacuum for one reason

Look up "transpiration cooling" to learn more.

[BADecker]

...
How do you know that there would be no burning of methane around the spacecraft?....

because reentry is at 50-100 miles altitude, near vacuum for one reason

Look up "transpiration cooling" to learn more.

Are you saying that the atmosphere that heats up a re-entry vehicle doesn't have any oxygen in it? Or the ability to boil water or methane?

Generally, transpiration cooling is a low-heat thing... at least quite a bit lower than re-entry heat. Also, it doesn't necessarily provide instant vaporization as Musk is talking about.

I don't claim to know the answers regarding if this whole idea the way Musk is proposing would work or not. It would be interesting to see some tests, or at least computer simulations.

[soulcancer]

so sick of hearing about this schmuck....would someone please give me 4.9billion$ in taxpayer money so that "enlightened" people will talk endlessly about me???