Called the CRA (Canadian tax revenue agency...)...

[spazzdla]

First person couldn't answer the question about what to do If I bought BTC and then sell at a gain what  to do. 

Get it moved up to another person, they answer treat it as a stock.  I get asked how I am going to do that since no one exchanges it..

Convo goes something kind of like this:

But it's not traded how are you going to sell it.

Yes it is there is a rather large exchange in Canada I deal with, .quadrigacx.

Oh, but no one is going to send you a check for money for btc.

Yes they will I can ask for a check from quadrigacx..




The convo kind of gets repeated about 3 times till I say I should have enough info and thank you for the help.



The bloody CRA doesn't even know about bitcoin.. 

It is very difficult to ask tax questions , etc when they know nothing about it..

I also asked if I have to pay capital gains if I buy something with it.

Well it's not a currency so that doesn't matter.. you can't buy anything with it.

WELL THAT IS WHERE YOU ARE WRONG KIDO.  I can and do buy things with it all the time, it seems I don't have to pay capital gains though if I buy things with it and make gains from my initial purchase :O!!




I feel like we are in the 1200's and people are just starting to use silver and gold to store wealth.. Then almost instantly everyone used it to exchange value..


The real point of this thread is.. this made me pretty bullish that BTC is still so small even tax agencies ignore it.

[franky1]

CRA does know about bitcoin.

but
some of the call centre guys at many government agencies are just temporarily employed staff that just take notes and ask supervisors.
their training is usually 1 hour basic knowledge and 1 day shadowing another colleague.

usually you are passed on and told to review the website or seek advice from an accountant/specialist. or asked to be put on hold while they consult their supervisor/a manual

EG even the staff at KFC dont know the colonels secret ingredient. or the calories per chicken breast. or even the type of fat its cooked in. they are just customer facing low paid employee's

[deisik]

~snipped~

The real point of this thread is.. this made me pretty bullish that BTC is still so small even tax agencies ignore it.

Could you tell us what was the point of you asking them? Are you really going to pay some taxes on Bitcoin gains (testing waters if they could really go after you) or have you been just curious (read provocative)? If a lot of people start asking such and similar questions, the tax agencies won't ignore Bitcoin any more. And this is obviously not what many of us might want...

In other words, don't trouble trouble until trouble troubles you

[spazzdla]

Future knowledge.. the gov LOVES to rape the little guy.  If they found out someone in the middle class sold something they bought for lets say $1 million and didn't tell them they would fine you $1 million PLUS gains..

So I need to tell them up front or they will go out of their way to "make an example" out of me so the other 98% knows they will get raped if they try to hide money.

I have heard some vicious stores about the CRA.

[Bungeebones]

I think the real wrench in their machine will be when people ask them for the legal definition of "dollar". I'm confident (not positive) that the same thing happened in Canada where they started referring to PROMISES to pay dollars as DOLLARS. Obviously, an object (i.e a "note") that promises to pay a "dollar" cannot itself be a dollar!

Just because something was declared "legal tender" it didn't make the promise to pay a dollar an actual dollar. What legal tender accomplished was to force someone to accept a note (promise to pay a dollar) in lieu of a real dollar (sort of like forcing someone to accept a bad check).

By treating Bitcoin as property, they cause the person trading it to determine its value compared to "dollars". If they wanted the people to compare and report its value related to "notes" then they certainly could have done so (since they create the tax forms). And since they are legal instruments that are signed "under penalties of perjury" the language needs to be strictly construed. Using street slang definitions of "dollar" is not sufficient. Diligent taxpayers must make sure they use the right measure, the right "dollar" to measure their gain against.

Here, in the US, the official, legal dollar is a one ounce silver coin still issued legally under authority of the US Congress and the US Mint. One, legal, official dollar "sells" for approximately $20 worth of Federal reserve Worthless Notes.

Therefore, to get the value of Bitcoin (and any gain) divide the market price in FRN and divide by 20. That is a lot less tax and really quite bearable. The problem for the taxing officials is if a dollar is, indeed, a silver coin then no one earns dollars and only earn promises to pay dollars that are never delivered upon. That would not be good for tax receipts if everyone reported their taxable income in legal dollars

[spazzdla]

I just found this thread..

Please stop informing the CRA about bitcoin.

As far as they know, Bitcoin is an intangible asset.

If you want to collect tax and send it to them, they will gladly take your money..

But, for the love of Bitcoin, don't tell them that you can get MONEY for it!

The gov of Canada is very friendly towards BTC.  Our senate has spent over 10 hours in meetings with people about bitcoin.  Check out the youtube video with the senate talking to Andreas A.

When (not if) BTC gets to $10 CAD the CRA will know all about Bitcoin. 

Don't try to cheat the CRA that is the best advice you will ever get on this planet.

[deisik]

I just found this thread..

Please stop informing the CRA about bitcoin.

As far as they know, Bitcoin is an intangible asset.

If you want to collect tax and send it to them, they will gladly take your money..

But, for the love of Bitcoin, don't tell them that you can get MONEY for it!

The gov of Canada is very friendly towards BTC.  Our senate has spent over 10 hours in meetings with people about bitcoin.  Check out the youtube video with the senate talking to Andreas A.

When (not if) BTC gets to $10 CAD the CRA will know all about Bitcoin. 

Don't try to cheat the CRA that is the best advice you will ever get on this planet.

It is typically more like "don't mess with the IRS"

And how much is the capital gains tax in Canada, and are there any exemptions, for example, when you hold the assets for longer than a certain period of time? I guess as long as you don't convert your bitcoins to fiat there is no need to pay this tax. On the other hand, since you are calling the CRA not for the fun of it (at least, so you say), we can assume that you are going to do just that (i.e. pay some taxes if you have to). I'm not suggesting you go for tax evasion (but others may still be interested in exactly that), but what about opening an offshore account (provided you really have that much as you imply)? Did you investigate this option?

[Sithara007]

And how much is the capital gains tax in Canada, and are there any exemptions, for example, when you hold the assets for longer than a certain period of time?

Capital gains tax calculation is a bit complex in Canada. 50% of realized capital gains are taxable in Canada at an individual's tax rate, so it works out to a maximum of 20% to 27% of the gains (depending on the state/territory). Unrealized capital gains are not taxed.

[Juggy777]

I don't understand why would you want to pay tax on Bitcoin? First of all its not Canada currency. Two there no rule that says you need to pay your tax on btc. It's decentralised for a reason and no country can charge a tax in it until they have a valid law. You should call a law firm and ask did Canada over night make a law to charge tax on Bitcoin, you seem so panicky may I know why. All this time you would have traded without fear. So why wake up suddenly?

[Xester]

Tax agencies is not ignoring bitcoin. The reason why they cannot tax bitcoin since there are no guidelines and tariff regarding bitcoin taxation. Some government taxing agencies do not tax bitcoins but the moment you exchange your bitcoin to fiat, the site or exchanger will place fees on your transaction that will serve as your tax since it will go to the government treasury.

[deisik]

I don't understand why would you want to pay tax on Bitcoin? First of all its not Canada currency. Two there no rule that says you need to pay your tax on btc. It's decentralised for a reason and no country can charge a tax in it until they have a valid law. You should call a law firm and ask did Canada over night make a law to charge tax on Bitcoin, you seem so panicky may I know why. All this time you would have traded without fear. So why wake up suddenly?

You don't pay taxes on Bitcoin in particular

You pay taxes on capital gains. The latter are profits that you obtain from buying something at one price and selling it later at a higher price. The difference will be a capital gain, and that is taxed. That something can in fact be anything which is not specifically taxed, and Bitcoin cuts pretty well in this respect. Whether Bitcoin is a Canadian currency, or currency at all is irrelevant for taxation

Tax agencies is not ignoring bitcoin. The reason why they cannot tax bitcoin since there are no guidelines and tariff regarding bitcoin taxation. Some government taxing agencies do not tax bitcoins but the moment you exchange your bitcoin to fiat, the site or exchanger will place fees on your transaction that will serve as your tax since it will go to the government treasury.

I'd rather say it is prohibitively expensive for them to go after every Bitcoin tax evader right now, but that doesn't mean they won't try to make an example of some poor fellow, a scapegoat of sorts, and punish him in full

[spazzdla]

I don't understand why would you want to pay tax on Bitcoin? First of all its not Canada currency. Two there no rule that says you need to pay your tax on btc. It's decentralised for a reason and no country can charge a tax in it until they have a valid law. You should call a law firm and ask did Canada over night make a law to charge tax on Bitcoin, you seem so panicky may I know why. All this time you would have traded without fear. So why wake up suddenly?

You most certainly do have to pay tax.  I haven't traded just bought.  ANYTHING you buy and then sell for cash and make money on you must pay capital gains.  


As deisik  just said.. I don't want to be the guy that doesn't tell the CRA then I am on the news the next day,  everything taken from me and looking at years in prison because they are cucks.  

The tax man is a bastered with an army behind him.. do not try to fuck him or he will fuck you so hard you can never walk again.


*EDIT*
Sorry I like my "colourful" language.

[deisik]

I don't understand why would you want to pay tax on Bitcoin? First of all its not Canada currency. Two there no rule that says you need to pay your tax on btc. It's decentralised for a reason and no country can charge a tax in it until they have a valid law. You should call a law firm and ask did Canada over night make a law to charge tax on Bitcoin, you seem so panicky may I know why. All this time you would have traded without fear. So why wake up suddenly?

You most certainly do have to pay tax.  I haven't traded just bought.  ANYTHING you buy and then sell for cash and make money on you must pay capital gains. 


As deisik  just said.. I don't want to be the guy that doesn't tell the CRA then I am on the news the next day,  everything taken from me and looking at years in prison because they are cucks. 

The tax man is a bastered with an army behind him.. do not try to fuck him or he will fuck you so hard you can never walk again

That was rude but true

Some have tried, many have failed. If you don't want to pay taxes (I doubt there is anyone willing to pay them unless cornered) and don't want to get caught at that, I guess you may consider buying citizenship of a country which doesn't impose taxes on bitcoins or capital gains obtained through currency exchange operations and as well has a double taxation agreement signed with Canada. Then you might declare your income in that country, and thus free your gains from taxation in Canada. A financial (tax) adviser or consultant would be of great help here, provided it is worth trying, of course

[spazzdla]

I feel like we are in the 1200's and people are just starting to use silver and gold to store wealth.. Then almost instantly everyone used it to exchange value..


The real point of this thread is.. this made me pretty bullish that BTC is still so small even tax agencies ignore it.

buy buy buy

I'm still a newb at bitcoin, but it doesn't take a genius to know its a good hodl


"  hodlers and whales assembled to soak up the BearWhale’s coins, successfully slaying it. This event was commemorated with artwork of the battle, such as the picture atop this post. "

https://qz.com/878728/buy-and-hodl-just-dont-get-rekt-the-slang-that-gets-you-taken-seriously-as-a-bitcoin-trader/

BUYING ALL THE COINS!!!!!.

I will never sell all of my coins but I do plan to sell some on the way up.

[LeGaulois]

I had a similar problem.
They don't know, or at least most of them don't. When i first called the guy i needed to explain it to him....and more than 1 time.

Finally the guy replied, stop to trolling me !

I left the converstaion. I figured out my anwser searching by myself into gov release papers wich i can read online

[olubams]

I tell you, its not only CRA that does not know even over here, police can arrest you if you proudly say you are dealing in bitcoin and they might intepret it to mean that its being used in the "underworld" thereby you are doing something illegal and that is why those who deal in this currency do it via faceless forum to avoid such confrontations. And that is the long way I always see when people start comparing bitcoin with bank or with fiat claiming bitcoin will replace fiat or even kill banks...

[roadcrap]

http://pasteboard.co/kVXvBSuLE.png


/meme philosoraptor If I mention the CRA ; Will Canadians flock to this thread?

[unamis76]

The CRA was pretty clear, they told you that it's not a currency neither can anyone send you a check for BTC, so I see no reason for doubts. They seem to know quite a lot about Bitcoin after all...

As for you feeling we're in the 1200's, well... I guess you'll have to get used to that

[Believe13]

I am confused here.  So if I don't convert coins to Fiat then i don't need to declare anything to them?

I have discussed with accountant. and he has no clue what I was talking about !!

[Melfear]

After many hours searching online, you do have to pay taxes on EVERY trade you made profit with!! Trading, for example, BTC for ETH is the same as trading BTC to CAD and CAD to ETH. You have to pay the tax on capital gain for the BTC "sell". For now i'm not sure of the method that is recommend in Canada to determine the initial value of the BTC used to buy the ETC if you have bought/acquire BTC over the time at different prices. I have found 3 ways to do this. The First In First Out, the Last In Last Out and the average buy price. I'm not sure which one to use in Canada ... For tax, capital gain is taxes at your marginal rate for half the amount of gain which is calculate with a simple formula : Sell price minus fees MINUS Buy price with fees = Capital gain. Be aware that a person buying and holding for more than a year is consider a long time trader and the income is a capital gain. For those who trades (buy and sell) inside a single year, they can be flag as "professional trader" and the profit made on each trade is becoming like a job income and is all tax at your marginal rate!!

And now the disclaimer, I'm just a small trader and i'm not a financial/accountant professional in anyway, my personnal advise is if you want to be save, declare your income, pay your tax and keep proof of your trades as sign of good will. That way you will keep CRA far from you even if they ask you proof, send them and you will never hear from them again. To be sure always ask for professionnal help (wich is really hard to get for something virtual like bitcoin)!

Enjoy!

Edit : Here a link for a PDF made by 2 professionnal
Olivier Fournier. Deloitte Tax Law ll p, Montreal. Frequent
speaker, writer, and presenter at tax conferences and seminars.

John J. Lennard. Davies Ward Phillips & Vineberg ll p,
Montreal. bcomm (2007) Laurentian University; bcl , ll b
(2011) McGill University.

https://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=8&ved=0ahUKEwj8n867y-vVAhVGLSYKHR5qCH0QFgheMAc&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.dwpv.com%2Fassets%2F-%2Fmedia%2FF28E60C148DB463DB31E0CF66008FD2A.ashx&usg=AFQjCNE-1eNUL1Mt0Kv2W7a6nhr-jyfOnQ