Isn't Islam a religion of hate and violence, not peace and love?

[valta4065]

I don't have anything against muslims themselves. My husband's mother married a Muslim and he is a very nice guy, a lot better than most of people in my country (at least because he doesn't drink and we have a problem with drinking in my country since a bottle of vodka costs 1.5$). So, let's rather speak about the intentions of religion. I read 1/2 of Quran (in translation, so for Muslims it is not really Quran) and watched a few documentaries. It is indeed a violent religion. But so is judaism and christianity. It all depends on the people and how they see it. Just think about the Crusades being done for Christianity.

Thats around 750 years ago.

The problem is muslims are acting like its the dark ages in today.

Maybe because its the dark ages for them --'
What makes the dark ages:
poverty? Check
political instability? Check
no separation of powers? Check
importance of religion? Check
No education? Check

I believe there are fairly decent arguments that these factors that "make the dark ages" are the result of Islam, rather than factors outside the religion.

As for the "Crusades and Christianity," the Crusades were largely attempts to get back lands that Muslims had conquered by force.

Yeah, so decent arguments that you stopped answering me when I proved you wrong 

I just love how all those people have "arguments" based on "facts and actual data" contrary to "leftists".
But when you actually corner them to their shitty ideas with History, seems like they just disappear.

[popcorn1]

I don't have anything against muslims themselves. My husband's mother married a Muslim and he is a very nice guy, a lot better than most of people in my country (at least because he doesn't drink and we have a problem with drinking in my country since a bottle of vodka costs 1.5$). So, let's rather speak about the intentions of religion. I read 1/2 of Quran (in translation, so for Muslims it is not really Quran) and watched a few documentaries. It is indeed a violent religion. But so is judaism and christianity. It all depends on the people and how they see it. Just think about the Crusades being done for Christianity.

Thats around 750 years ago.

The problem is muslims are acting like its the dark ages in today.

Maybe because its the dark ages for them --'
What makes the dark ages:
poverty? Check
political instability? Check
no separation of powers? Check
importance of religion? Check
No education? Check

I believe there are fairly decent arguments that these factors that "make the dark ages" are the result of Islam, rather than factors outside the religion.

As for the "Crusades and Christianity," the Crusades were largely attempts to get back lands that Muslims had conquered by force.

Yeah, so decent arguments that you stopped answering me when I proved you wrong 

I just love how all those people have "arguments" based on "facts and actual data" contrary to "leftists".
But when you actually corner them to their shitty ideas with History, seems like they just disappear.

I thinks you need to do some HISTORY ..A little lesson below ..

The Crusades were started by the Muslims in the year 630 A.D. when Muhammad invaded and conquered Mecca. Later on, Muslims invaded Syria, Iraq, Jerusalem, Iran, Egypt, Africa, Spain, Italy, France, etc.

638 Muslim Crusaders conquer and annex Jerusalem, taking it from the Byzantines. 638—650 Muslim Crusaders conquer Iran,
 The Western Crusades started around 1095 to try to stop the Islamic aggressive invasions.

465 years later the Christians crusades started..And only to fight ISLAM ..

RELIGION OF PEACE  ..

[Spendulus]

.....
Yeah, so decent arguments that you stopped answering me when I proved you wrong 

I just love how all those people have "arguments" based on "facts and actual data" contrary to "leftists".
But when you actually corner them to their shitty ideas with History, seems like they just disappear.

Frankly I did not think the attitude that seemed to be displayed by your comments was worth responding to.  You don't get anywhere by pronouncing yourself having proved someone wrong.  That's in your own head.  The things you said were rather superficial. 

[protokol]

......
Good post, yes at the moment it seems to be mostly muslims who are performing despicable acts such as suicide bombing and terrorism. But you rightly say that the West have been doing similar "terrorism" for years, and not only against Middle Eastern countries (anyone remember the IRA bombings?)

And many hundreds of years ago, it was the Christians who were indiscriminately killing during the Crusades.

An important point to make is that this concept of "martyrism" and suicide bombing is an extremely new phenomenon - it only started in the second half of the 20th century, in part due to Western influences on Middle Eastern government. ......

Almost none of what you wrote is relevant to the situation today.  Islam owns suicide bomber whackjobs, period.  There's no rationalizing about how somehow that's the fault of "the west."  It's not.  It's what they do.  They blow themselves up, often with NO clear purpose or goal. 

It's really quite laughable that you'd try to shrug it off.  Or blame it on things that have zero relation to it.

You misunderstand, I'm not shrugging it off by any means. I think it's a despicable and cowardly ideology, and I'm not trying to put the blame on anyone. I'm merely stating that certain actions by the west (specifically the USA) may well have contributed to the radical Islamic uprising that we see today.

My point was also that it is a common misconception that radical islamic attacks, especially suicide bombings are some sort of medieval ideology.

Suicide bombings are a very new phenomenon, I think the first instance where we see these types of attacks en masse, are in the 1980s during the alliance of Hafez al-Assad and Ruhollah Khomeini (who was the leader of Iran after the Shah was overthrown in the revolution). They used this new form of suicide attacks to force American troops from Lebanon.

And it is important to note how advanced the Islamic world was in the "Golden Age" (between the 8th and 13th centuries), because it shows that it isn't necessarily the muslim religion or the teachings of the Quran that are the driving force behind the radicalism we see today. At this period in history the Islamic world was seeking knowledge, and developing and translating mathematics, philosophy and science in general. This is in stark contrast to the attitudes we see today from the radical islamists.

It's no-ones fault (apart from the actual terrorists) that this is happening, per se, I just think it's short sighted to put it all down to "the Quran is bad and teaches muslims to kill infidels" (which is what many people believe).

Again, I'm not blaming anyone or shrugging anything off - I'm just commenting that it is an extremely complicated situation that has many factors which may or may not have caused it, and to just blame "Islam" seems naive. I think all religion is bullshit, for the record.

Interesting.  We share many views, although they diverse from similar premises.

For example, I agree either to just blame (or not blame) Islam is naive.   But similarly one cannot just throw some historical events up in the air (Golden Age, Crusades, whatever) and shout "See!  what about THAT?  That proves that..."

No, that does not prove anything.  To actually draw cause and effect even in part takes some historical analysis and is not an easy job.  Hence in many cases old historical events may simply be left out as not relevant to current.

For example, we can simply not that guys saying they are Islamic, then shouting "Allah Akbar" as they explode themselves and everyone around them, are Islamic terrorists and in the absence of any note or definitive message as to the specific reasons for their actions, we can state they are doing it as an act of Islamic Jihad related to the stated intentions of Islam to take over the world.

Pretty simple.  I think it's fair what I said.  If they left a note as to some political or war issue or retaliation for xyz, then that's what we accept as cause.  If not, it is as I said.

Thanks for the considerate reply, yeah I think our views are on the same sides of the coin, so to speak, but we may have differing opinions on the likelihood of what is fueling this islamic terrorism. And I am not categorically stating that the West is to blame, or anyone for that matter - I am simply trying to piece together bits of evidence that might give some insight into why Islamic terrorism is so prevalent in these modern times.

I am certainly not stating that the historical events such as the Islamic Golden Age is "proof" of anything, simply that it it was a time when muslims weren't attacking infidels as relentlessly and indiscriminately as they are now, and were looking outwards to the world around them to gain knowledge. Rather than what the extremists do now, which is look inwards and deny any facts that aren't written in the Quran.

This is just some circumstancial evidence that perhaps the actual religion/teachings are not fully to blame for some muslims' modern interpretation of it. I agree that trying to prove cause and effect in regards to historical events is a ridiculously tricky task, but certain events can be used as evidence for a more complex hypothesis.

And I fully agree that the argument of "Well, Christians killed in the Crusades, so how is that different to Muslims killing in the modern world" is a terrible argument - It's like saying "well Ted Bundy killed over 30 people, so why does it matter if I kill 1 person?". Stupid logic, just because someone did something worse in the past, doesn't mean that doing something sightly less worse is acceptable in the future.

I don't think anyone could say with certainty what the actual motivation of these Islamic terrorists is... for some it could be from interpretating the Quran as sacred law (even though I think the Quran does condemn suicide).

For others it could be indoctrination at a young age by elders/parents who were bombed/attacked during the first Iraq war (or other wars involving Britain/USA/other Western countries), and as a result indiscriminately hate the West. For others still, it could be a sense of not belonging or being accepted in their home country (for example British muslims travelling to fight for ISIS because they feel their homeland rejects their customs). My personal opinion is that these last two factors are a significant influence in the current reason for people to join ISIS and other radical groups.

As for you last point about suicide bombers shouting "Allahu Akbar" and then blowing themselves up, well yes, it's pretty obvious that they believe they are doing an act to please their god and gain benefits in the afterlife, while killing innocent civilians. Fucking hell, it sounds so horrific and retarded doesn't it...? And it is.

But I have a (slightly morbid) fascination as to what would actually persuade these people to commit these horrific acts. I touched on some of them above, but I'm sure there are more reasons - propaganda in the Middle East has become incredibly powerful in the last 5 years, with the advent of social media, cheap cameras and high quality editing software, producing propaganda films with high productions values. Scary stuff, just adding to the indoctrination of people who might otherwise be inclined to look up facts for themselves.

Again, my posts aren't claiming "I know the truth" like many others on this corner of the internet do, I just like to look at all the evidence and try and understand why people act the way they do. I quite often don't "believe" anything, because believing things means you are automatically shielding yourself from opposing opinions or evidence. Instead I look at things in terms of probability, and the underlying reasons that so many people act so irrationally.

Peace dude, Allahu Akbar 

[noel2123]

Well I think no, because I have muslims friends and they're all nice and care for other also. Maybe when you talk about hate and violence you did wrong to them, maybe you say something bad about their religion or culture. Like us we don't want our culture to have a bad impression to others. Its just that if you want to respect by others you should respect them as well.

[mainpmf]

I don't have anything against muslims themselves. My husband's mother married a Muslim and he is a very nice guy, a lot better than most of people in my country (at least because he doesn't drink and we have a problem with drinking in my country since a bottle of vodka costs 1.5$). So, let's rather speak about the intentions of religion. I read 1/2 of Quran (in translation, so for Muslims it is not really Quran) and watched a few documentaries. It is indeed a violent religion. But so is judaism and christianity. It all depends on the people and how they see it. Just think about the Crusades being done for Christianity.

Thats around 750 years ago.

The problem is muslims are acting like its the dark ages in today.

Maybe because its the dark ages for them --'
What makes the dark ages:
poverty? Check
political instability? Check
no separation of powers? Check
importance of religion? Check
No education? Check

I believe there are fairly decent arguments that these factors that "make the dark ages" are the result of Islam, rather than factors outside the religion.

As for the "Crusades and Christianity," the Crusades were largely attempts to get back lands that Muslims had conquered by force.

wut?
Please give me an explanation of how Islam leads to poverty, political instability, no separation of powers, and no education? Because as far as I know it doesn't, or at least not more than any other religion...
BUT if you put the religion in the context of an attacked country, attacked by other superpowers... Then it all makes sense...

[valta4065]

I don't have anything against muslims themselves. My husband's mother married a Muslim and he is a very nice guy, a lot better than most of people in my country (at least because he doesn't drink and we have a problem with drinking in my country since a bottle of vodka costs 1.5$). So, let's rather speak about the intentions of religion. I read 1/2 of Quran (in translation, so for Muslims it is not really Quran) and watched a few documentaries. It is indeed a violent religion. But so is judaism and christianity. It all depends on the people and how they see it. Just think about the Crusades being done for Christianity.

Thats around 750 years ago.

The problem is muslims are acting like its the dark ages in today.

Maybe because its the dark ages for them --'
What makes the dark ages:
poverty? Check
political instability? Check
no separation of powers? Check
importance of religion? Check
No education? Check

I believe there are fairly decent arguments that these factors that "make the dark ages" are the result of Islam, rather than factors outside the religion.

As for the "Crusades and Christianity," the Crusades were largely attempts to get back lands that Muslims had conquered by force.

Yeah, so decent arguments that you stopped answering me when I proved you wrong 

I just love how all those people have "arguments" based on "facts and actual data" contrary to "leftists".
But when you actually corner them to their shitty ideas with History, seems like they just disappear.

I thinks you need to do some HISTORY ..A little lesson below ..

The Crusades were started by the Muslims in the year 630 A.D. when Muhammad invaded and conquered Mecca. Later on, Muslims invaded Syria, Iraq, Jerusalem, Iran, Egypt, Africa, Spain, Italy, France, etc.

638 Muslim Crusaders conquer and annex Jerusalem, taking it from the Byzantines. 638—650 Muslim Crusaders conquer Iran,
 The Western Crusades started around 1095 to try to stop the Islamic aggressive invasions.

465 years later the Christians crusades started..And only to fight ISLAM ..

RELIGION OF PEACE  ..

2 facts:
1/It was not my argument so I don't know why you answer to me like that.
2/If you want to go this way let's go. Why did the Muslim Crusaders conquered and annex Jerusalem? That's right, because the Christians (aka Roman empire) conquered the whole part first.

Religion of peace

[valta4065]

.....
Yeah, so decent arguments that you stopped answering me when I proved you wrong 

I just love how all those people have "arguments" based on "facts and actual data" contrary to "leftists".
But when you actually corner them to their shitty ideas with History, seems like they just disappear.

Frankly I did not think the attitude that seemed to be displayed by your comments was worth responding to.  You don't get anywhere by pronouncing yourself having proved someone wrong.  That's in your own head.  The things you said were rather superficial. 

Damn, Iraq war and USA support to the most important terrorist group of the last decades was "rather superficial" 

If only I had known.
I guess that talking about how uncivilized current Islam is if much more important indeed!

[Sithara007]

As for the "Crusades and Christianity," the Crusades were largely attempts to get back lands that Muslims had conquered by force.

For heaven's sake, the last crusade occurred more than 700 years ago. It can't be compared to the religious wars which are being forced on the non-Muslims by the Islamists now. Back then, the people were not much aware about human rights. 

[ooom]

In 100 years there will be no religions!  
Maybe just a few, insane people with low intellectual capacity in rural areas will believe in some sort imaginary religion related tales.

With highly increasing worldwide technological innovation in education we will see the disappearance of religion practices.

Bye, bye religion tales.

[criptix]

As for the "Crusades and Christianity," the Crusades were largely attempts to get back lands that Muslims had conquered by force.

For heaven's sake, the last crusade occurred more than 700 years ago. It can't be compared to the religious wars which are being forced on the non-Muslims by the Islamists now. Back then, the people were not much aware about human rights. 

Democracy was created over 2000 years ago.
We had two world wars and the cold war in the last 100 years.

Stop bullshitting.

[criptix]

In 100 years there will be no religions!  
Maybe just a few, insane people with low intellectual capacity in rural areas will believe in some sort imaginary religion related tales.

With highly increasing worldwide technological innovation in education we will see the disappearance of religion practices.

Bye, bye religion tales.

Low iq people procreate much more then high iq people.

[Spendulus]

I don't have anything against muslims themselves. My husband's mother married a Muslim and he is a very nice guy, a lot better than most of people in my country (at least because he doesn't drink and we have a problem with drinking in my country since a bottle of vodka costs 1.5$). So, let's rather speak about the intentions of religion. I read 1/2 of Quran (in translation, so for Muslims it is not really Quran) and watched a few documentaries. It is indeed a violent religion. But so is judaism and christianity. It all depends on the people and how they see it. Just think about the Crusades being done for Christianity.

Thats around 750 years ago.

The problem is muslims are acting like its the dark ages in today.

Maybe because its the dark ages for them --'
What makes the dark ages:
poverty? Check
political instability? Check
no separation of powers? Check
importance of religion? Check
No education? Check

I believe there are fairly decent arguments that these factors that "make the dark ages" are the result of Islam, rather than factors outside the religion.

As for the "Crusades and Christianity," the Crusades were largely attempts to get back lands that Muslims had conquered by force.

wut?
Please give me an explanation of how Islam leads to poverty, political instability, no separation of powers, and no education? Because as far as I know it doesn't, or at least not more than any other religion...
BUT if you put the religion in the context of an attacked country, attacked by other superpowers... Then it all makes sense...

Well, if you created a religion that had rules that stated that religious leaders would rule society (Sharia law, etc) you'd be pretty much creating what Islam is.  Then you'd have places like what's in the Middle East. 

[Spendulus]

....

Damn, Iraq war and USA support to the most important terrorist group of the last decades was "rather superficial" 

If only I had known.
I guess that talking about how uncivilized current Islam is if much more important indeed!

Modern style radical Islam began with the writings of Sayyd Qutb.  He was executed for treason under the reign of Nassar in Egypt.  He started what is known as the Muslim Brotherhood.  That's pretty much Islam against Islam.

Look at the countries and the factions engaged in terror.

Largely it's muslim against muslim.

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/attacks/attacks.aspx?Yr=Last30

[Veider_lord]

....

Damn, Iraq war and USA support to the most important terrorist group of the last decades was "rather superficial" 

If only I had known.
I guess that talking about how uncivilized current Islam is if much more important indeed!

Modern style radical Islam began with the writings of Sayyd Qutb.  He was executed for treason under the reign of Nassar in Egypt.  He started what is known as the Muslim Brotherhood.  That's pretty much Islam against Islam.

Look at the countries and the factions engaged in terror.

Largely it's muslim against muslim.

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/attacks/attacks.aspx?Yr=Last30

I agree with you. But a lot of those who ordered the attacks. They usually stand on the sidelines, but the most important enemies of them. And it's not always Muslims. Russia is not a Muslim country, and it provokes violence in the world.

[mainpmf]

I don't have anything against muslims themselves. My husband's mother married a Muslim and he is a very nice guy, a lot better than most of people in my country (at least because he doesn't drink and we have a problem with drinking in my country since a bottle of vodka costs 1.5$). So, let's rather speak about the intentions of religion. I read 1/2 of Quran (in translation, so for Muslims it is not really Quran) and watched a few documentaries. It is indeed a violent religion. But so is judaism and christianity. It all depends on the people and how they see it. Just think about the Crusades being done for Christianity.

Thats around 750 years ago.

The problem is muslims are acting like its the dark ages in today.

Maybe because its the dark ages for them --'
What makes the dark ages:
poverty? Check
political instability? Check
no separation of powers? Check
importance of religion? Check
No education? Check

I believe there are fairly decent arguments that these factors that "make the dark ages" are the result of Islam, rather than factors outside the religion.

As for the "Crusades and Christianity," the Crusades were largely attempts to get back lands that Muslims had conquered by force.

wut?
Please give me an explanation of how Islam leads to poverty, political instability, no separation of powers, and no education? Because as far as I know it doesn't, or at least not more than any other religion...
BUT if you put the religion in the context of an attacked country, attacked by other superpowers... Then it all makes sense...

Well, if you created a religion that had rules that stated that religious leaders would rule society (Sharia law, etc) you'd be pretty much creating what Islam is.  Then you'd have places like what's in the Middle East. 

But... What?
Do you even know that Christianity is the oldest law system in the world?
Christians had the exact same thing as Sharia law... They had bishops united in local and Ecuminical counsels. They made laws, decretes and everything related... They made trials and judgement... They had all the powers. So how is it different from Sharia law and the fact that the religion wants to rule society?

[bryant.coleman]

Look at the countries and the factions engaged in terror.

Largely it's muslim against muslim.

Islamic terror is more prevalent in regions where the Islamic population is greater. But that doesn't mean that the Muslims make up most of the victims. For example, in Iraq and Syria, a very large part of the victims were either Yazidi or Christian. This is despite the fact that they make up less than 10% of the population there.

Russia is not a Muslim country, and it provokes violence in the world.

Why don't you Ukrainian trolls start your own thread rather than spamming each and every topic here?

[popcorn1]

I don't have anything against muslims themselves. My husband's mother married a Muslim and he is a very nice guy, a lot better than most of people in my country (at least because he doesn't drink and we have a problem with drinking in my country since a bottle of vodka costs 1.5$). So, let's rather speak about the intentions of religion. I read 1/2 of Quran (in translation, so for Muslims it is not really Quran) and watched a few documentaries. It is indeed a violent religion. But so is judaism and christianity. It all depends on the people and how they see it. Just think about the Crusades being done for Christianity.

Thats around 750 years ago.

The problem is muslims are acting like its the dark ages in today.

Maybe because its the dark ages for them --'
What makes the dark ages:
poverty? Check
political instability? Check
no separation of powers? Check
importance of religion? Check
No education? Check

I believe there are fairly decent arguments that these factors that "make the dark ages" are the result of Islam, rather than factors outside the religion.

As for the "Crusades and Christianity," the Crusades were largely attempts to get back lands that Muslims had conquered by force.

Yeah, so decent arguments that you stopped answering me when I proved you wrong 

I just love how all those people have "arguments" based on "facts and actual data" contrary to "leftists".
But when you actually corner them to their shitty ideas with History, seems like they just disappear.

I thinks you need to do some HISTORY ..A little lesson below ..

The Crusades were started by the Muslims in the year 630 A.D. when Muhammad invaded and conquered Mecca. Later on, Muslims invaded Syria, Iraq, Jerusalem, Iran, Egypt, Africa, Spain, Italy, France, etc.

638 Muslim Crusaders conquer and annex Jerusalem, taking it from the Byzantines. 638—650 Muslim Crusaders conquer Iran,
 The Western Crusades started around 1095 to try to stop the Islamic aggressive invasions.

465 years later the Christians crusades started..And only to fight ISLAM ..

RELIGION OF PEACE  ..

2 facts:
1/It was not my argument so I don't know why you answer to me like that.
2/If you want to go this way let's go. Why did the Muslim Crusaders conquered and annex Jerusalem? That's right, because the Christians (aka Roman empire) conquered the whole part first.

Religion of peace

Your quote below?..
I just love how all those people have "arguments" based on "facts and actual data" contrary to "leftists".
But when you actually corner them to their shitty ideas with History, seems like they just disappear.

                                                            all those people
                                                             MEANING ME
You made out that Christianity started the crusades..NO it was Islam first to go around the world and make people believe in that religion or die ..

But who ever started the CRUSADES those religions never started in the UK so would you please take them back to where they came from ..

But you did make out the crusades started first by the Christians?..YES YOU DID..

The great series of western holy wars were the Crusades, which lasted from 1095 until 1291 CE. The aim was to capture the sacred places in the Holy Land from the Muslims who lived there, so it was intended as a war to right wrongs done against Christianity. The first Crusade was started by Pope Urban II in 1095.

The Crusades were started by the Muslims in the year 630 A.D. when Muhammad invaded and conquered Mecca. Later on, Muslims invaded Syria, Iraq, Jerusalem, Iran, Egypt, Africa, Spain, Italy, France, etc. The Western Crusades started around 1095 to try to stop the Islamic aggressive invasions..

But you would agree that fighting over something that's not there I.E fairy tales is STUPID ..
Well i hope you do?..

Or is this your logic?..   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrzMhU_4m-g

[Spendulus]

Look at the countries and the factions engaged in terror.

Largely it's muslim against muslim.

Islamic terror is more prevalent in regions where the Islamic population is greater. But that doesn't mean that the Muslims make up most of the victims. For example, in Iraq and Syria, a very large part of the victims were either Yazidi or Christian. This is despite the fact that they make up less than 10% of the population there.

Russia is not a Muslim country, and it provokes violence in the world.

Why don't you Ukrainian trolls start your own thread rather than spamming each and every topic here?

< bolded part>

Sure but they run out of Christian and Yazidi victims pretty quick, then start in on their fellow Muslims.  There's always something wrong with those "other" muslims worth fighting about, right?

[Daniel91]

I would say that religion itself can't be good or evil.
Only people can have such characteristics.
Terrorist claims that they represent Islam but they are not Muslims at all, in my opinion.
Terrorists have no religion.
So, yes, Islam represent love and peace, but terrorists represent evil.