Ripple: A Distributed Exchange for Bitcoin

[LeTanque]

Seems to me they are riding one of the carts on the "decentralized" train uninvited.

In regards to uninvited, they do have Jed McCaleb on the team...

Who started the largest centralized exchange for bitcoin? And where it is still unclear if he is directly responsible for the database leak?

Well MtGox needed to be created at the time. I don't know about the database leak, however. I wouldn't assume anyone intentionally compromised the integrity of MtGox. Usually, there is more reward from success than failure, at least that has been my experience.

Also, there is that 20% chance that Jed is actually Satoshi. Not that that is the prerequisite for "invitation", but I don't see how they are considered uninvited. Theoretically, ripple will provide value to bitcoin and alternative currencies as a whole.

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[Dharmadog]

I am looking to get some XRP into my wallet there.  Anybody want to give some up for a trade.  I currently have BTC, LTC, NMC, PPC, and some other crap...  Message me and tell me what you are thinking in terms of deals.  I am fairly new here but am willing to trade in whatever "safe" way we can.  (Escrow)...?

[datz]

mr bigg I find that a pretty keen insightt. Weren't you originally a ripple hater?

In a manner of speaking yes. This was my progression of emotion towards Ripple:

1. Denial: "This can't possibly work. Who needs it when we have Bitcoin?"

2. Anger: "These guys gave themselves all the coins! This is another pre-mine / ponzi scam."

3. Acceptance: "Ripple solves important problems, and is well designed."

I studied Ripple for a while and asked many questions. It is much more complex than Bitcoin, that is certain. But also holds the promise of doing much more. Ripple doesn't replace Bitcoin but rather, complements it. A lot of people making objections in this thread simply don't understand Ripple and haven't thought long enough about it to see the implications.

One of Ripple's prime advantages over Bitcoin is that the development of the software and promotion of the related gateway services is run by a for-profit company instead of a group of neckbeards. You might think this is a bad thing but actually, it aligns the financial interests with the interests of the users. There's a financial incentive to write clean software, document it extensively, and work on the features that users actually want. Compare this with Bitcoin: if a user wants a feature that the developers don't find exciting to work on, the usual answer is "you don't pay our salary, Bitcoin is Open Source, if you want that feature then write it yourself."

The OpenCoin team is already up to 20 people I think. They are all getting a salary, and there is a level of management which guides the development. They have actual deadlines, and investors to be held accountable to. Compare this with Bitcoin, which still hasn't had a 1.0 release in over four years. Unlike Bitcoin, the Ripple protocol specifications are being written at the same time that the code is being written. Ripple should not experience the problem that Bitcoin has, where the protocol specification is changed on a whim at the pleasure of a few developers who have commit access to the Github repository.

OpenCoin's primary stated means of generating revenue is to "hold XRPs and hope they go up in value." That means they have a financial interest in making XRPs useful, and keeping their value stable (to the extent that they are able to do so, which will be very limited once they are all given away and sold). People need not worry that the rippled software is not open source yet, it will definitely be open sourced some time this year. Because otherwise, XRPs will be essentially worthless since no one would trust a closed system.

Because OpenCoin needs Ripple to be successful in order for them to make money, they can do things that Bitcoin can't realistically do. Like hire a PR firm to brand the Ripple product and promote it to the masses in a commercialized way. Compare this with Bitcoin, which only recently underwent a revision to the main website. The attitude of the Bitcoin developers and principals is that they don't want Bitcoin to grow too fast, and that it is still experimental beta software. OpenCoin, on the other hand, is aggressively courting partners to make Ripple provide as much utility as possible in a short time.

I had the pleasure of going to the Ripple meetup in San Francisco in March. I met with David Schwartz (JoelKatz), Stefan, Jed, Arthur, and a few others. After talking to these guys, the impression is that they are smart. I found a group of friendly, motivated workers in their Mission District office with a bunch of computers at desks. They come in to work, there's whiteboards, and a lot of activity. It looks just like any other promising startup. There's a CEO, and they have an impressive panel of investors and backers. People who dismiss Ripple, do so at their own peril. OpenCoin has a lot of momentum, plenty of smart people, and a bulging war-chest of investment capital.

Ripple is already an impressive pieces of working software. You can go into your Ripple wallet right now and trade Bitcoins for US dollars, Euros, and XRPs, in the distributed order book. You can deposit and withdraw money at both Bitstamp and WeExchange. The Ripple beta solves the problem we recently experienced with the denial of service and MtGox lag. When Ripple opens its doors to the public, the first thing it will do is provide profoundly deep liquidity for Bitcoin. It will make the process of depositing money at an exchange a distributed process, since deposited funds can be used to purchase bitcoins in ANY order book not just one. Withdrawal of funds will be similarly distributed. If an exchange has a $10,000 monthly withdrawal limit you could just open an account at another exchange and withdraw from there as well. If MtGox can't verify users quickly enough, anyone could deposit money at a different Ripple-enabled exchange that has a smaller queue. In fairly short order, the fees exchanges charge for trades will be forced downwards due to the perfect competition that Ripple enables. Going beyond Bitcoin, Ripple will easily integrate into traditional payment networks like debit cards or checking accounts, allowing vendors to unknowingly accept Ripple payments through their already existing systems. Since Ripple IOUs correspond naturally to fiat currencies, these integrations will be far more convenient and functional than their Bitcoin counterparts.

Ripple is poised to be the next big thing during the crypto-currency revolution.

In response to:

2. Anger: "These guys gave themselves all the coins! This is another pre-mine / ponzi scam."
http://bitslog.wordpress.com/2013/04/17/the-well-deserved-fortune-of-satoshi-nakamoto/
http://vlntry.com/2013/05/04/bitcoin-creates-a-fortune-out-of-nothing-for-one-man/

"The person(s), who Sergio assumes is the one accredited with inventing Bitcoin, has netted 1,814,400 BTC from mining,  1,148,800 of which has never been spent [1].  In today’s exchange rate, that’s about $100 million US dollars. Not bad for inventing your own fortune."

The Bitcoin community should not delude itself into believing BTC cannot be centrally controlled and that Bitcoin itself has not enriched its founder.

[malevolent]

Anyone know when Ripple will open for more members and give them some free XRP?

[graceza]

Their site says they are in Beta but if you can simply click through "open wallet", select "existing users" and create a new wallet. You too can have a place to put Ripple, USD, BTC, etc.

Getting the account activated is a little confusing because you need Ripples in there before you can buy Ripples within your wallet through the gateway. The easiest way, without begging from your friends or trying to trade with strangers in dark internet alleys, is to transfer some small amount of BTC to Bitstamp, sell it for USD and buy Ripples on Bitstamp to start your account. Occasionally they will have a sign out saying they have none to sell but then it goes away and they do.

You don't need much to activate the wallet, just about 100 of them. Then you can "trust" Bitstamp for BTC, send more BTC to your Ripple wallet and buy Ripples by placing an offer. BitStamp has the highest volume and best pricing, so you can choose them as the issuer. You have to "book" orders, there are no "market" buys. It is a little buggy doing this in the Beta wallet client but it can be done. Just make sure you get the decimal point in the correct place.

[anyroll]

saw this the other day on youtube; How Ripple Works - Gateways and Pathways

hope it's not redundant...

http://www.youtube.com/embed/M16ZatXbmLg

I dislike Ripple for many reasons, one being its useless and gives nothing to the Bitcoin world IMO

[Loozik]

From what I understand to get into ripple trading business I first need to buy 100 Ripples from someone. According to this http://www.bitcoincharts.com/charts/rippleUSD#rg30zig6-hourztgSzm1g10zm2g25zi1gVol 1 ripple = $120.

So first I need to find someone who owns ripples and pay him $12,000 to be able to open a wallet at ripple.com, correct?

I then after I am accepted (with my 100 ripples currently worth $12,000) I can start trading ripples internally within the peer network? I am sorry my English is not very good. Can someone confirm I am correct on this please?

Thank you.

[justusranvier]

I dislike Ripple for many reasons, one being its useless and gives nothing to the Bitcoin world IMO

It potentially gives the Bitcoin world a better interface to the legacy currency world, at least as long as that world remains relevant.

BTC-denominated IOUs are madness though, so I wouldn't recommend anyone extend Bitcoin trust lines in Ripple.

[Sukrim]

From what I understand to get into ripple trading business I first need to buy 100 Ripples from someone. According to this http://www.bitcoincharts.com/charts/rippleUSD#rg30zig6-hourztgSzm1g10zm2g25zi1gVol 1 ripple = $120.

No, this chart shows that ~120 USD on Ripple are traded for 1 BTC.

You want this chart:
http://www.bitcoincharts.com/charts/rippleXRP#rg30zig6-hourztgSzm1g10zm2g25zi1gVol

With "ripple" graceza meant XRP.

[Loozik]

You want this chart:
http://www.bitcoincharts.com/charts/rippleXRP#rg30zig6-hourztgSzm1g10zm2g25zi1gVol

Now I understand. Many thanks.

[graceza]

Here's an even better place to track the XRP/USD and XRP/BTC.

https://ripplecharts.com/markets

As you can see from these charts the volume of trading has gone up significantly in the last week or so along with the price of XRP against both BTC and USD.
 
Once you have your starter XRP (you only need about 100 and that shouldn't cost more than $2 on Bitstamp ) you can trade BTC/XRP from the Ripple Wallet.

[redwraith]

saw this the other day on youtube; How Ripple Works - Gateways and Pathways

hope it's not redundant...

http://www.youtube.com/embed/M16ZatXbmLg

I dislike Ripple for many reasons, one being its useless and gives nothing to the Bitcoin world IMO

That's what people were saying about Bitcoin 2-3 years ago (and arguably still are).  Give it some time.

[prophetx]

saw this the other day on youtube; How Ripple Works - Gateways and Pathways

hope it's not redundant...

http://www.youtube.com/embed/M16ZatXbmLg

I dislike Ripple for many reasons, one being its useless and gives nothing to the Bitcoin world IMO

that's not true, if mtgox and btce supported XRP gateways than you wouldn't have this ridiculous 5% difference in price between those exchanges.

but hey who am I to complain. that inefficiency it makes me money lol  

[virtualfaqs]

So are we in a Ripple bubble now or not? haha

So 8000 Ripples = 1 BTC? And they're still giving out 20,000 Ripples in the giveaway thraed? Or am I reading this wrong?

[takagari]

Seems like people come along and create a new currency so they can get BTC, all revolving around BTC

[LeTanque]

Seems like people come along and create a new currency so they can get BTC, all revolving around BTC

I agree and disagree with this.

People create to solve problems. If the creation solves problems, sometimes the technology gets adopted at scale. If the creations are "me-too's" and don't solve a problem, they usually don't get adopted at scale.

With that said, there are a multitude of examples showing otherwise. Humans are interesting when it comes to the logic behind the decisions they make.

Importantly, when you really look at what Ripple is, it's not a "me-too". It solves problems. A decentralized exchange is powerful in itself and, as you know, there is more to Ripple than just the exchange. Being able to transact business with anyone, anywhere, at almost no cost, with any currency... that's pretty disruptive. Ripple is also designed to handle microtransactions efficiently, facilitating an expanse in microtransaction business that will be a huge benefit to the internet and content in general.

Unfortunately, everyone is focused on XRP. XRP isn't the point, it doesn't need to be used as a currency.

[datz]

I am a firm believer in the Ripple protocol and as such many of my posts are unpopular.

Since the Bitcoin community has experienced attempted ripoffs in the past with alt coins like Tenebrix which offered no additional value in terms of innovation or improvement of the Bitcoin economy and were created primarily to enrich its founders, the community justifiably has a bad taste in its mouth when it comes to perceived "alt coins". Although, one could argue that Satoshi and early adopters of Bitcoin enriched themselves with millions of coins as well by having early access to information and mining protocols when coin creation was at its height and mining the easiest.

Article headlines like http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2013-04-11/introducing-ripple-a-bitcoin-copycat are unwarranted.

The Ripple protocol predates Bitcoin (created in 2004) but never quite caught on because it did not have the proper venue, marketing, and funding.

Ripple is not just some "alt coin" or "postage stamp" - it is a protocol which facilitates transactions of any kind.

The Ripple protocol and IOUs/trust/gateway features allow for insurance, credit, and fee-less instantaneous exchange of currencies (until you cash out at a trusted gateway). This means less load on the blockchain, less load on trading houses, better scalability, higher potential for integrated API, and less reliance on Bitcoin companies which have essentially centralized and bottlenecked certain vital functions for navigation in the Bitcoin economy. Unfortunately, some of the Bitcoin business owners, early adopters, arbitrage traders, and exchanges have vested interests in inefficient exchange between currencies and maintenance of certain inefficient practices.

There are misconceptions in the Bitcoin community as to what Ripple and XRP actually are.

Yes XRP is a new currency, but it was not created for the sake of profit. XRP lost with every transaction is necessary for the Ripple protocol to work and must hold some value in order to prevent spam and DDOS-like overload. Yes, some of the BTC debt may be paid down with XRP and XRP may become a valuable currency as it exists alongside IOU, debt, and currency exchanges. But, this is for the betterment of the Bitcoin economy and solves problems the Bitcoin protocol is limited by.

Ripple has the potential to solve many of the scalability, stability, and inefficiency problems faced by the Bitcoin protocol. As such, Ripple adds value not only to the world economy, but to the Bitcoin economy specifically.

http://bitcoinmagazine.com/introducing-ripple/

[datz]

The Ripple protocol and IOUs/trust/gateway features allow for insurance, credit, and fee-less instantaneous exchange of currencies (until you cash out at a trusted gateway).

Here is a simple schema for a Ripple-based semi-automated insurance pool I could easily code and may actually turn into a company (BitInsure):

If anyone wants to start this with me (a lot on my plate) or found this independently I will fund you.

You could set a required time to remain in the pool, a pool expiration date, or if your pool is large enough, let trusted people leave or join at any time.

In an automated application you choose people everyone in the group (or the majority - 51%+) trusts:

The application adds up the amount each trusted individual hopes to insure

10            
12
20
100
20
30
22
44
67
89
__

414

The application divides the amount each individual wishes to insure by the total of the pool minus that contribution

0.024
0.029
0.048
0.24
0.048
0.072
0.053
0.11
0.16
0.21

You assume each wallet has an equal chance of theft

The application multiplies each individual's percentage contribution to the pool against every individual insured amount

i.e. for the 100 contribution:

0.24 * each insured

2.4
2.88
4.8
(24 - weight this back out by percentage)
4.8
7.2
5.28
10.56
16.08
21.36

The application would trust the 100 contributor on each Ripple holder's wallet for the corresponding above amount of BTC (weighted out).

The application would add 9 trusts to each Ripple wallet corresponding to the BTC amounts calculated as a percentage of the total pool each insured amount represents - this adds up to the total amount insured for each wallet.

If a wallet or BTC amount were reported stolen, the application would issue IOUs or send XRP corresponding to each of these trusts.

The larger the pool and the less percentage a given insured amount constitutes of that pool, the less each insured entity has to pay to a specific loss.

(Of course I use a proprietary algorithm, this is just for example's sake - pure weighting is not entirely fair to large stake holders)

Risk is spread out among the insured - no transfer costs - no or little insurance fees - no overhead - no fees - only pay a small percentage of a trusted loss - you can pick who you trust and want in your pool.

The potential features on this design are boundless. You could go so far as to create profiles and upload credit history/health records to increase your chances of acceptance into a pool (vote for trust) which people would be inclined to do to decrease their own costs when something bad happens to a member.

This is a simple example of how distributed insurance can and will work with the Ripple protocol.

Global, frictionless, libertarian, decentralized insurance.

[xchrix]

why is this thread dead?
everything said about it ? i really like the idea about an distributed exchange
it would be distributed by all servers which are running rippled (not many at the moment)
but i think it wont be distributed by currency
if you have USD IOUs from bitstamp and maybe USD IOUs from btc-e then they are not the same. you will have to find someone to trade USD/USD to buy bitcoins from btc-e with bitstamp USD deposit
is this correct?

[halfawake]

I really like the idea of Ripple.  I think the main problem with it is that it's insanely complex and frankly the website does a lousy job of making it clear.  Maybe it's complex enough that it's not an easy concept to make clear - because, in a way, Ripple is trying to emulate the entire existing financial system, except as an exchange rather than a fractional lending system.  IOUs are what people have in bank accounts, after all, that's why they're FDIC insured (at least in the USA), to prevent a recurrence of what happened in the Great Depression.

Here's my summary of bitcoiners' objections to Ripple:

1) It's too complex, how does this work anyway? 

A valid objection.  I couldn't even find the register page on the Ripple website without someone pointing me to the link and I'm pretty tech savvy.

2) The founders are just in it to print money.

Profit motive - every business has this anyway.  Isn't this why most people use bitcoins - to cut out the middlemen and make more money as businesses?  Also, the founder of bitcoin has the equilivent of $100 million dollars worth of bitcoin, so the same could be said of bitcoin, although it's not exactly liquid since the value of bitcoin would crash if he/she / they try to cash them in.

3) It's not open.  I can't look at the source.

Another valid objection, at least for now.  The servers aren't open source and we don't know when they will become open source.

4) It's yet another alt coin.

This one I'm not sure I buy.  Yes, it's another alt coin, but unlike most of them, Ripple actually has something unique about it that could lead a real advantage to the bitcoin community if it takes off.

5) It's basically an alt-coin version of a central bank.

I suspect this may be the biggest objection to Ripple, and in a way, the objection to which all the others stem from.  It's too centralized, they're out to make money, etc, they all ultimately stem from this objection that it's too much like a central bank / clearing house for most people's taste.  Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I suspect this is why a lot of people don't like Ripple.