Why mining Coins or buying hardware from China is supporting murderers..

[AyeYo]

So someone walks up to you on the street.  They put a gun to your head and tell you to bend over so they can ass rape you or they're going to kill you.

That's a violation of my rights. I have the right to not be raped, robbed or physically assaulted. I don't have the right to a livable wage.

Tell that to the guy that's going to rape you. I'm sure he'll stop dead in his tracks.

What you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

I think this may be of use to you...

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[AyeYo]

If Government is a tool, then whose hands is it in?

Please, do enlighten us, what is the root of the problem?

Have you not been reading the thread?  The rich control the government - i.e. corporations control the government.  This is nothing new.  It's an evolution of the feudal days during which the rich WERE the government.


So while you sit there and rail against the evils of government, stop for a second and consider who is actually benefiting from those actions.

Libertarians have this hilarious tendancy to talk about government like it is a sentient being or some outside, otherworldly force.  Government is as government does.  It is not inherently good or evil.  It does whatever those controlling it want it to do, and it benefits whoever those people want it to benefit.  It's just a tool.  It's not a being in and of itself, it doesn't have interests, opinions, or biases.

You can remove the tool, but that does not address the one using it.

[myrkul]

OK, so your claim is that Corporations control the Government?

Just want to make sure I have your position right.

I will stipulate that 'government' being an organization of individuals, can not, as a whole, have 'interests, opinions, or biases'.

[BombaUcigasa]

I have a weird issue with the asian countries culture:
- Japan - highly technological and prosper, people suicide a lot
- China - highly crowded and poor, people suicide a lot

And it's not the kind of suicide where you take a pill, or hang yourself, or get electrocuted, or you get "assisted suicided by the mafia", it's the kind of "let the bodies hit the floor, from 50m above".

[AyeYo]

OK, so your claim is that Corporations control the Government?

Not really a claim, so much as it is a fact.

[AyeYo]

I have a weird issue with the asian countries culture:
- Japan - highly technological and prosper, people suicide a lot
- China - highly crowded and poor, people suicide a lot

And it's not the kind of suicide where you take a pill, or hang yourself, or get electrocuted, or you get "assisted suicided by the mafia", it's the kind of "let the bodies hit the floor, from 50m above".

Most Asian cultures involve extreme pressure towards excellence, conformity, honor, and teamwork.  It's a very stressful existence, thus the high suicide rates.

[myrkul]

OK, so your claim is that Corporations control the Government?

Not really a claim, so much as it is a fact.

OK, so your position is that Corporations are control of the Government.

Are you aware that Corporations are creations of the government, and would not exist without it?

[AyeYo]

OK, so your claim is that Corporations control the Government?

Not really a claim, so much as it is a fact.

OK, so your position is that Corporations are control of the Government.

Are you aware that Corporations are creations of the government, and would not exist without it?

Really?  That's interesting! 

So if we got rid of government then big business would just cease to exist?

[myrkul]

Did I say big business?

*reads back a few posts*

Nope, I said 'Corporations'.

[AyeYo]

Did I say big business?

*reads back a few posts*

Nope, I said 'Corporations'.

Ah, so you ARE playing the semantics game!  I don't really like this game, it distracts from the arguments are hand.  So I think I'll sit out and you can get back to me when you're done playing.

[myrkul]

Did I say big business?

*reads back a few posts*

Nope, I said 'Corporations'.

Ah, so you ARE playing the semantics game!  I don't really like this game, it distracts from the arguments are hand.  So I think I'll sit out and you can get back to me when you're done playing.

No, A corporation is a specific entity, With protections from the government from liability. Remove either government, or just those protections, and it suddenly becomes much easier to bring a wily businessman to task. I don't deny that business will continue without Government. In fact, I contend that it will thrive. I do, however contend that the liability protections that the government currently provides to corporations are the major cause of things like what the OP is whining about.

[AyeYo]

Did I say big business?

*reads back a few posts*

Nope, I said 'Corporations'.

Ah, so you ARE playing the semantics game!  I don't really like this game, it distracts from the arguments are hand.  So I think I'll sit out and you can get back to me when you're done playing.

No, A corporation is a specific entity, With protections from the government from liability. Remove either government, or just those protections, and it suddenly becomes much easier to bring a wily businessman to task. I don't deny that business will continue without Government. In fact, I contend that it will thrive. I do, however contend that the liability protections that the government currently provides to corporations are the major cause of things like what the OP is whining about.

Getting back on topic from your irrelevant tangent...


The rich control the government.

[myrkul]

But you said that Corporations control the government.

Which is it, Corporations, or 'The Rich'?

If it's the latter, that significantly reduces the subset of people you say are in charge of the government, since not every Monsanto employee is rich.

[AyeYo]

But you said that Corporations control the government.

Which is it, Corporations, or 'The Rich'?

If it's the latter, that significantly reduces the subset of people you say are in charge of the government, since not every Monsanto employee is rich.

Actually, I've used them interchangably throughout this thread, because I don't need to play a semantics game to argue my points.  Let me break it down into first grade lingo that you might understand...


Rich people run shit, end of story.  Rich people control the corporations, so saying that corporations control government is the same as saying the rich control government, because the rich control the corporations.  A > B and B > C therefore A > C, it's as simple as that.

Can you hear me now?

[Reikoku]

'The government' is not a tool. The government is a group of individuals who may or may not be corrupt (I assume some are and some are not). 'Corporations' are legal fiction. They exist to distance liability from decision makers. They are creations of government and grant legal privelege which is incompatible with the libertarian worldview.

We're not pro-corporatism. I personally have far more issues to pick with corporate law (and corporate welfare) than I do to pick with government, but government still has its own issues.

[AyeYo]

'The government' is not a tool. The government is a group of individuals who may or may not be corrupt (I assume some are and some are not). 'Corporations' are legal fiction. They exist to distance liability from decision makers. They are creations of government and grant legal privelege which is incompatible with the libertarian worldview.

We're not pro-corporatism. I personally have far more issues to pick with corporate law (and corporate welfare) than I do to pick with government, but government still has its own issues.

Can you reconcile those two contradictory statements for me?

[myrkul]

Rich people run shit, end of story.

Now we're getting somewhere. You said before that corporations control government. NOW, you're saying that the rich people run the world. These are two totally separate concepts. And you know what? I agree totally with you. The richest people DO have the greatest amount of power.

What you fail to ask, is why?

If you've ever bothered, the answer you came up with is likely, "Because they're Rich."

While this is true, I don't think you see the mechanism by which they do this. Let me break it down for you.

Rich people start business, and incorporate them, under limited liability laws. These laws protect the rich people from the consequences of their corporation's actions.

To prevent other people from doing the same thing, they pay government officials to pass laws to stifle competition in their industry. (these payments are often called 'Campaign contributions')

Both of these actions require one thing: Government. Without the government, there would be no limited liability laws. There would be no barriers to competition. There would be nobody for the rich people to pay off to run things.

[AyeYo]

Both of these actions require one thing: Government.

That's where your leap of illogic fails.  Watch:


Guns cause murder.


Bad people get angry, grab a gun, load the gun, find someone to kill, then fire the gun at that person and kill them.


Guns cause murder.  That process requires one thing: a gun.



See how that works?  That's attacking the tool instead of attacking the entity using the tool

[NghtRppr]

Tell that to the guy that's going to rape you. I'm sure he'll stop dead in his tracks.

I don't need to. By threatening me with violence I'm within my rights to respond in kind.

[Reikoku]

'The government' is not a tool. The government is a group of individuals who may or may not be corrupt (I assume some are and some are not). 'Corporations' are legal fiction. They exist to distance liability from decision makers. They are creations of government and grant legal privelege which is incompatible with the libertarian worldview.

We're not pro-corporatism. I personally have far more issues to pick with corporate law (and corporate welfare) than I do to pick with government, but government still has its own issues.

Can you reconcile those two contradictory statements for me?

People cannot be a tool, there is nothing contradictory here. Tools are inanimate and have no free will, this isn't true of the individuals which make up government, or the individuals which make up corporations.