Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion

[BlindMayorBitcorn]

$250 by the end of the month, I reckon.

Silver parity at this rate

[1715433273]

1715433273

[1715433273]

1715433273

[twiifm]

Most credit cards and banks cover for unauthorized losses, which BTC does not have this insurance.

But they pass this cost of fraud onto the consumer, effectively raising the price of everything you buy. BTC insurance could become a fairly large industry.

Citation please?  People here say that a lot but I've never seen any proof that fraud is a line in COGS

Trolling? In US gas stations in some states list prices in cash and credit card. Credit card fraud costs millions each year, doesn't take a genius to realize that someone is paying for that, guess who that someone is 

Wow Only one example without citation.  They don't do that in my state or any states from NY to VA.  By your idiotic logic, I can claim that merchants are passing all their costs to the consumer including rents and payroll insurance, etc..

[twiifm]

Most credit cards and banks cover for unauthorized losses, which BTC does not have this insurance.

But they pass this cost of fraud onto the consumer, effectively raising the price of everything you buy. BTC insurance could become a fairly large industry.

Citation please?  People here say that a lot but I've never seen any proof that fraud is a line in COGS

I assume the merchants are subsidising that in the fees they pay.

Mainly is the " interchange fee" the Visa and MC and AMex, Disc pays to the middle merchant banks to promote their cards,which includes interest 2-3% and per transaction fees.

Yes merchants pay a cc fee.  But any proof they pass this onto consumer?  I think they just eat it in their margin.  I know my business did

[samsonn25]

Most credit cards and banks cover for unauthorized losses, which BTC does not have this insurance.

But they pass this cost of fraud onto the consumer, effectively raising the price of everything you buy. BTC insurance could become a fairly large industry.

Citation please?  People here say that a lot but I've never seen any proof that fraud is a line in COGS

I assume the merchants are subsidising that in the fees they pay.

Mainly is the " interchange fee" the Visa and MC and AMex, Disc pays to the middle merchant banks to promote their cards,which includes interest 2-3% and per transaction fees.

Yes merchants pay a cc fee.  But any proof they pass this onto consumer?  I think they just eat it in their margin.  I know my business did

The intermediary bank and association pays for it.

But the "interchange" association will reimburse some of the loss to the final merchant if they used rules like i.d. verification  and physical swipe of transaction  them from the buyer, online sales are much higher risk than physical location, therefore the higher interest and swipe charges for online merchants.

[chopstick]

DEBT METEOR APPROACHING

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=TwZG-TFhdG0

[twiifm]

Most credit cards and banks cover for unauthorized losses, which BTC does not have this insurance.

But they pass this cost of fraud onto the consumer, effectively raising the price of everything you buy. BTC insurance could become a fairly large industry.

Citation please?  People here say that a lot but I've never seen any proof that fraud is a line in COGS

I assume the merchants are subsidising that in the fees they pay.

Mainly is the " interchange fee" the Visa and MC and AMex, Disc pays to the middle merchant banks to promote their cards,which includes interest 2-3% and per transaction fees.

Yes merchants pay a cc fee.  But any proof they pass this onto consumer?  I think they just eat it in their margin.  I know my business did

The intermediary bank and association pays for it.

But the "interchange" association will reimburse some of the loss to the final merchant if they used rules like i.d. verification  and physical swipe of transaction  them from the buyer, online sales are much higher risk than physical location, therefore the higher interest and swipe charges for online merchants.

Thank you.

I also think the claim that bitcoin is cheaper than CC is bogus.  Cost per transaction is all time low and it's still around $8-9.  A year ago it was almost $80 per transaction

https://blockchain.info/charts/cost-per-transaction

On top of that there's the 9% inflation from block rewards

[ChartBuddy]

Bitfinex

Bitstamp

Explanation

[DaRude]

Most credit cards and banks cover for unauthorized losses, which BTC does not have this insurance.

But they pass this cost of fraud onto the consumer, effectively raising the price of everything you buy. BTC insurance could become a fairly large industry.

Citation please?  People here say that a lot but I've never seen any proof that fraud is a line in COGS

Trolling? In US gas stations in some states list prices in cash and credit card. Credit card fraud costs millions each year, doesn't take a genius to realize that someone is paying for that, guess who that someone is 

Wow Only one example without citation.  They don't do that in my state or any states from NY to VA.  By your idiotic logic, I can claim that merchants are passing all their costs to the consumer including rents and payroll insurance, etc..

Try broadening your horizons and getting at least out of your state for starters. Yes they do that's basic business. Covering from their margins lol and where do those margins come from? Ok ok have it your way credit cards cover fraud from their margins, which they get by charging the retailer, who pays it from their margins which they get by charging customers. That's why retailers charge higher fee for credit card use (err give discount when you DON'T use CC) where allowed heres one of the first google results http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/17/business/merchants-consider-credit-card-surcharges-or-cash-discounts.html?_r=0 i didn't really read the whole thing don't have time to entertain every troll

[BitThink]

Most credit cards and banks cover for unauthorized losses, which BTC does not have this insurance.

But they pass this cost of fraud onto the consumer, effectively raising the price of everything you buy. BTC insurance could become a fairly large industry.

Citation please?  People here say that a lot but I've never seen any proof that fraud is a line in COGS

I assume the merchants are subsidising that in the fees they pay.

Mainly is the " interchange fee" the Visa and MC and AMex, Disc pays to the middle merchant banks to promote their cards,which includes interest 2-3% and per transaction fees.

Yes merchants pay a cc fee.  But any proof they pass this onto consumer?  I think they just eat it in their margin.  I know my business did

The intermediary bank and association pays for it.

But the "interchange" association will reimburse some of the loss to the final merchant if they used rules like i.d. verification  and physical swipe of transaction  them from the buyer, online sales are much higher risk than physical location, therefore the higher interest and swipe charges for online merchants.

Thank you.

I also think the claim that bitcoin is cheaper than CC is bogus.  Cost per transaction is all time low and it's still around $8-9.  A year ago it was almost $80 per transaction

https://blockchain.info/charts/cost-per-transaction

What does this "cost per transaction" mean? The price of 0.0001 BTC? The Btcpay or coinbase fee? I think maybe mining cost / transaction count? Then it has nothing to do with the merchants or customer.

[DaRude]

Most credit cards and banks cover for unauthorized losses, which BTC does not have this insurance.

But they pass this cost of fraud onto the consumer, effectively raising the price of everything you buy. BTC insurance could become a fairly large industry.

Citation please?  People here say that a lot but I've never seen any proof that fraud is a line in COGS

I assume the merchants are subsidising that in the fees they pay.

Mainly is the " interchange fee" the Visa and MC and AMex, Disc pays to the middle merchant banks to promote their cards,which includes interest 2-3% and per transaction fees.

Yes merchants pay a cc fee.  But any proof they pass this onto consumer?  I think they just eat it in their margin.  I know my business did

The intermediary bank and association pays for it.

But the "interchange" association will reimburse some of the loss to the final merchant if they used rules like i.d. verification  and physical swipe of transaction  them from the buyer, online sales are much higher risk than physical location, therefore the higher interest and swipe charges for online merchants.

Thank you.

I also think the claim that bitcoin is cheaper than CC is bogus.  Cost per transaction is all time low and it's still around $8-9.  A year ago it was almost $80 per transaction

https://blockchain.info/charts/cost-per-transaction

What does this "cost per transaction" mean? The price of 0.0001 BTC? The Btcpay or coinbase fee? I think maybe mining cost / transaction count? Then it has nothing to do with the merchants or customer.

"Cost per Transaction A chart showing miners revenue divided by the number of transactions."

Build in process to distribute decentralized currency taken as a transaction cost, i guess when someone is on the mission to disproof something facts don't matter

[twiifm]

Most credit cards and banks cover for unauthorized losses, which BTC does not have this insurance.

But they pass this cost of fraud onto the consumer, effectively raising the price of everything you buy. BTC insurance could become a fairly large industry.

Citation please?  People here say that a lot but I've never seen any proof that fraud is a line in COGS

Trolling? In US gas stations in some states list prices in cash and credit card. Credit card fraud costs millions each year, doesn't take a genius to realize that someone is paying for that, guess who that someone is 

Wow Only one example without citation.  They don't do that in my state or any states from NY to VA.  By your idiotic logic, I can claim that merchants are passing all their costs to the consumer including rents and payroll insurance, etc..

Try broadening your horizons and getting at least out of your state for starters. Yes they do that's basic business. Covering from their margins lol and where do those margins come from? Ok ok have it your way credit cards cover fraud from their margins, which they get by charging the retailer, who pays it from their margins which they get by charging customers. That's why retailers charge higher fee for credit card use (err give discount when you DON'T use CC) where allowed heres one of the first google results http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/17/business/merchants-consider-credit-card-surcharges-or-cash-discounts.html?_r=0 i didn't really read the whole thing don't have time to entertain every troll

Did you even read the article you linked? 

[samsonn25]

IN a perfect world, retailers hate credit cards as they lose some profit from the sale.

But in reality and mostly in practice they are willing to give up this small percentage and surcharge as credit cards enable easier funds transfer than cash for many customers.

The result of this may be an increase of sales of 200-1000% for the retailer.  So in the end they make more sales to make up for the smaller profit.

The worst example is gas stations which may only make 5-8 cents per gallon of gas, and may lose money when the price of gas is expensive because of the credit card surcharges.  But in fact they dont make much from gas sales they make most of their money from the sales inside the market and convenience store.  Like cigarettes, candy, soda, chips, things with much higher profit margin. The gas is to lure them to the shop.

[twiifm]

Most credit cards and banks cover for unauthorized losses, which BTC does not have this insurance.

But they pass this cost of fraud onto the consumer, effectively raising the price of everything you buy. BTC insurance could become a fairly large industry.

Citation please?  People here say that a lot but I've never seen any proof that fraud is a line in COGS

I assume the merchants are subsidising that in the fees they pay.

Mainly is the " interchange fee" the Visa and MC and AMex, Disc pays to the middle merchant banks to promote their cards,which includes interest 2-3% and per transaction fees.

Yes merchants pay a cc fee.  But any proof they pass this onto consumer?  I think they just eat it in their margin.  I know my business did

The intermediary bank and association pays for it.

But the "interchange" association will reimburse some of the loss to the final merchant if they used rules like i.d. verification  and physical swipe of transaction  them from the buyer, online sales are much higher risk than physical location, therefore the higher interest and swipe charges for online merchants.

Thank you.

I also think the claim that bitcoin is cheaper than CC is bogus.  Cost per transaction is all time low and it's still around $8-9.  A year ago it was almost $80 per transaction

https://blockchain.info/charts/cost-per-transaction

What does this "cost per transaction" mean? The price of 0.0001 BTC? The Btcpay or coinbase fee? I think maybe mining cost / transaction count? Then it has nothing to do with the merchants or customer.

"Cost per Transaction A chart showing miners revenue divided by the number of transactions."

Build in process to distribute decentralized currency taken as a transaction cost, i guess when someone is on the mission to disproof something facts don't matter

The only reason the cost went down is because the price went down.  When price is was higher it was way more expensive than CC.  Somebody has to pay for that.  It's not low cost as many claim

[DaRude]

IN a perfect world, retailers hate credit cards as they lose some profit from the sale.

But in reality and mostly in practice they are willing to give up this small percentage and surcharge as credit cards enable easier funds transfer than cash for many customers.

The result of this may be an increase of sale of 200-1000% for the retailer.  So in the end they make more sales to make up for the smaller profit.

The worst example is gas stations which may only make 5-8 cents per gallon of gas, and may lose money when the price of gas is expensive because of the credit card surcharges.  But in fact they dont make much from gas sales they make most of their money from the sales inside the market and convenience store.  Like cigarettes, candy, soda, chips.  The gas is to lure them to the shop.

Sure can't argue with that, but why should it be cost averaged between all payment methods when i pay cash? Apply a convenience fee on the purchasers with credit card. Oops "credit card surcharges are prohibited in California, Colorado, Connecticut, Florida, Kansas, Maine, Massachusetts, New York, Oklahoma and Texas." http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mybanktracker/that-credit-card-convenie_b_4956839.html but they can give discounts on non credit card transactions. And you can't use cash over the internet oh wait...

[samsonn25]

yes.

There is still a long way to go for fast electronic cash transactions.

[DaRude]

Most credit cards and banks cover for unauthorized losses, which BTC does not have this insurance.

But they pass this cost of fraud onto the consumer, effectively raising the price of everything you buy. BTC insurance could become a fairly large industry.

Citation please?  People here say that a lot but I've never seen any proof that fraud is a line in COGS

I assume the merchants are subsidising that in the fees they pay.

Mainly is the " interchange fee" the Visa and MC and AMex, Disc pays to the middle merchant banks to promote their cards,which includes interest 2-3% and per transaction fees.

Yes merchants pay a cc fee.  But any proof they pass this onto consumer?  I think they just eat it in their margin.  I know my business did

The intermediary bank and association pays for it.

But the "interchange" association will reimburse some of the loss to the final merchant if they used rules like i.d. verification  and physical swipe of transaction  them from the buyer, online sales are much higher risk than physical location, therefore the higher interest and swipe charges for online merchants.

Thank you.

I also think the claim that bitcoin is cheaper than CC is bogus.  Cost per transaction is all time low and it's still around $8-9.  A year ago it was almost $80 per transaction

https://blockchain.info/charts/cost-per-transaction

What does this "cost per transaction" mean? The price of 0.0001 BTC? The Btcpay or coinbase fee? I think maybe mining cost / transaction count? Then it has nothing to do with the merchants or customer.

"Cost per Transaction A chart showing miners revenue divided by the number of transactions."

Build in process to distribute decentralized currency taken as a transaction cost, i guess when someone is on the mission to disproof something facts don't matter

The only reason the cost went down is because the price went down.  When price is was higher it was way more expensive than CC.  Somebody has to pay for that.  It's not low cost as many claim

Huh what are you talking about? Do explain why i as a consumer or a merchants care how much miners are getting?

[DaRude]

For reference

[twiifm]

Most credit cards and banks cover for unauthorized losses, which BTC does not have this insurance.

But they pass this cost of fraud onto the consumer, effectively raising the price of everything you buy. BTC insurance could become a fairly large industry.

Citation please?  People here say that a lot but I've never seen any proof that fraud is a line in COGS

I assume the merchants are subsidising that in the fees they pay.

Mainly is the " interchange fee" the Visa and MC and AMex, Disc pays to the middle merchant banks to promote their cards,which includes interest 2-3% and per transaction fees.

Yes merchants pay a cc fee.  But any proof they pass this onto consumer?  I think they just eat it in their margin.  I know my business did

The intermediary bank and association pays for it.

But the "interchange" association will reimburse some of the loss to the final merchant if they used rules like i.d. verification  and physical swipe of transaction  them from the buyer, online sales are much higher risk than physical location, therefore the higher interest and swipe charges for online merchants.

Thank you.

I also think the claim that bitcoin is cheaper than CC is bogus.  Cost per transaction is all time low and it's still around $8-9.  A year ago it was almost $80 per transaction

https://blockchain.info/charts/cost-per-transaction

What does this "cost per transaction" mean? The price of 0.0001 BTC? The Btcpay or coinbase fee? I think maybe mining cost / transaction count? Then it has nothing to do with the merchants or customer.

"Cost per Transaction A chart showing miners revenue divided by the number of transactions."

Build in process to distribute decentralized currency taken as a transaction cost, i guess when someone is on the mission to disproof something facts don't matter

The only reason the cost went down is because the price went down.  When price is was higher it was way more expensive than CC.  Somebody has to pay for that.  It's not low cost as many claim

Huh what are you talking about? Do explain why i as a consumer or a merchants care how much miners are getting?

If you pay a merchant directly with Bitcoin the transaction fee goes to miner.  So who pays for that?  If the merchant pays for it what incentive do they have over CC?  The whole argument that merchant have incentive to choose Bitcoin over CC and pass the savings to consumer has no legs

[twiifm]

For reference

What about 95% of other business that don't do this?

[samsonn25]

Most credit cards and banks cover for unauthorized losses, which BTC does not have this insurance.

But they pass this cost of fraud onto the consumer, effectively raising the price of everything you buy. BTC insurance could become a fairly large industry.

Citation please?  People here say that a lot but I've never seen any proof that fraud is a line in COGS

I assume the merchants are subsidising that in the fees they pay.

Mainly is the " interchange fee" the Visa and MC and AMex, Disc pays to the middle merchant banks to promote their cards,which includes interest 2-3% and per transaction fees.

Yes merchants pay a cc fee.  But any proof they pass this onto consumer?  I think they just eat it in their margin.  I know my business did

The intermediary bank and association pays for it.

But the "interchange" association will reimburse some of the loss to the final merchant if they used rules like i.d. verification  and physical swipe of transaction  them from the buyer, online sales are much higher risk than physical location, therefore the higher interest and swipe charges for online merchants.

Thank you.

I also think the claim that bitcoin is cheaper than CC is bogus.  Cost per transaction is all time low and it's still around $8-9.  A year ago it was almost $80 per transaction

https://blockchain.info/charts/cost-per-transaction

What does this "cost per transaction" mean? The price of 0.0001 BTC? The Btcpay or coinbase fee? I think maybe mining cost / transaction count? Then it has nothing to do with the merchants or customer.

"Cost per Transaction A chart showing miners revenue divided by the number of transactions."

Build in process to distribute decentralized currency taken as a transaction cost, i guess when someone is on the mission to disproof something facts don't matter

The only reason the cost went down is because the price went down.  When price is was higher it was way more expensive than CC.  Somebody has to pay for that.  It's not low cost as many claim

Huh what are you talking about? Do explain why i as a consumer or a merchants care how much miners are getting?

If you pay a merchant directly with Bitcoin the transaction fee goes to miner.  So who pays for that?  If the merchant pays for it what incentive do they have over CC?  The whole argument that merchant have incentive to choose Bitcoin over CC and pass the savings to consumer has no legs

Merchants only want to profit more for themselves.